Encounters: The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed!/Encounters - The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed (1995).iso/altalien/alt03.txt

Internet Message Format | 1995-10-20 | 1MB

Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!cebarton
From: [e-mail] (Casey Barton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gary Stollman
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 04:15:46 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 12


     I'm having a hard time trying to decide whether Gary Stollman is simply
a slightly bent person, or whether his posting is really strong satire. It
seems to me that he writes just a little too much like a stereotypical "guy
who's been inhaling things he shouldn't be" to be sincere. I didn't know
whether to laugh or worry while reading his post!
     Something tells me that we're all being had just a little here...
--
      Casey Barton (Mr.)   [e-mail]   [phone]
    "Space," it says, "is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly
hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the
road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. Listen..." - The Guide.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 04:36:21 GMT
Organization: Kiboville
Lines: 7
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3001 alt.paranormal:3639

.
    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????


                    --
--
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 04:22:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1991Nov10.213734.7399@anasaz>
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

In article <1991Nov10.213734.7399@anasaz> billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
>Yes but I've  heard about these "blobs" before so I would sure appreciate a
>follow up. I'd like to know if there are any reports of cattle
>mutilations in the immediate area at about the same time, whether there
>is any unusual military interest in the organisim and, most importantly,
>any allegations of human multilations or human disappearances in that
>area around that time.

There have been "blobs" found before?  And they might be related to
mutilations?  That's incredible, I've never heard anything like it.  Could
you tell us more about it?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj
From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 08:39:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Lines: 6
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3003 alt.paranormal:3643

[e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) says:

> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????

I guess I ought to cash in my IRA.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!gatech!mailer.cc.fsu.edu!uflorida!math.ufl.edu!oak.circa.ufl.edu!KEITH
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 05:39:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Florida CIRCA VAX Cluster
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3004 talk.religion.newage:7678 alt.slack:1690

no, there ARE good E.T.'s, and they're in the same piece o' shit boat as we
humans are, so hell lot of help they'll be anyway. I've got a goddamned
trespassers will by nuked sign on my planet, and I don't want any damn
nice-hi-we're-here-to spread-peace and universal love space brother aliens
snooping around my house. Give me mean bastards with guns a-shootin' so I
can shoot back. I cook goddamned nice ETs and eat them for lunch!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!stc!fsb
From: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Tornado
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 09:31:52 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (System Administration)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Organization: BNR Europe, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB
Lines: 28


Dateline: Nov13 1991

On radio1 in England this morning, a news item stated
that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado.
It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter,
but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there
was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before
the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe.
Turning on the television for the morning news I expected to see
film of what happened but there wasn't even a sniff of the
article from the radio!!


Has anyone ever heard of blue lights in the sky with destruction
of property close by?


I'm baffled!




--
"On the plains of hesitation lie the bones of countless millions, of those
who stopped to view their success, and while resting - died!"
<[e-mail]>  ||  !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!stc!fsb
From: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 12:21:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System Administration)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3006 alt.paranormal:3645

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
>.
>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>
>
>                    --
>--


ITS A MONDAY!! So it must be a joke, right??????

--
"On the plains of hesitation lie the bones of countless millions, of those
who stopped to view their success, and while resting - died!"
<[e-mail]>  ||  !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!uofs!vulture.cs.uofs.edu!bill
From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 12:53:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Department of Computing Sciences
Lines: 19
Nntp-Posting-Host: vulture.cs.uofs.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
|>
|> About "a month ago", the police in St. Louis, Missouri, found a box
|> alongside the road "near Highway 100 and Deer Creek Road in West County".
|> Inside the box was a glass jar full of vinegar, and in the vinegar was the
|> "blob".  It consists of four parts, of which one is a tentacle.  It has no
|> bones or hair.


"2 luminous disk like eyes appeared above the rim. A huge rounded bulk larger than a bear
    rose up slowly, glistening like wet leather.  It's lipless mouth quivered and slathered
         and snake like tentacles writhed as the clumsy body heaved and pulsated."


--

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     [e-mail]   |  This space would be left intentionally blank
     [e-mail]    |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  An UFO over Mexico city.
Message-ID: <1991Nov12.201639.14583@anasaz>
Date: 12 Nov 91 20:16:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:
]>>
]>>So does anyone else think that that mysterious organism they found in
]>>Texas just HAS to be the owner of that mysterious machine they found
]>>in Utah?  Inquiring minds want to know...
]>
]>What mysterious organism in Texas?  Do you mean the mysterious organism in
]>St. Louis, Missouri, or is there another one?
]
I think the poster was being sarcastic in tying the organism to the Utah
machine.  I am very, very interested in hearing more about the St. Louis
case because I have no information about that one.  I especially would
appreciate information about (a) reported cattle mutilations nearby,
(b) reported human mutilations or disappearences at the same time, and
(c) the level of military interest in the organism itself.  If this group
is still open to serious research, I would appreciate any information
anyone might have on the above.
>--
> *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
> Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
> 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
> Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <1991Nov12.202122.14837@anasaz>
Date: 12 Nov 91 20:21:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dusty Garza) writes:
]>>
]>>
]>>So, has ANYONE haerd anything about the mysterious organism that was found
]>>in Texas or New Mexico???
]>
]>IF you're talking about the one found in St. Louis, Missouri, I know what
]>you're talking about (but not much else.)
]>
... stuff deleted ...
]>
]>I saw an ABC report on it one time, in what would normally be the
]>EVERYWHERE!".  I haven't seen it here, or on CIS, or on ParaNet, so where
]>are all these people talking about it?    (I have access to the Fido UFO
]>echo, but I don't have the money or the time to read it.  If there are
]>messages about it there, could someone please post them here?)
>
If there's any subject that gets QUIETED down immediately, this is it!  I
suprised anything got out on ABC - maybe because nobody was watching the
end of their noon program too closely.

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!linus!linus!tympani!gpivar
From: [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 12:37:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
|> ..
|>     HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
|> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
|>
|>


July 13th? July13th? Damn it! I was looking forward to my next birthday,
and now you tell me the worlds going to snuff it a week before I get it.

No, I had'nt heard anything about any asteroids hitting earth until 2013.
--
Greg

--  Be still, be silent...the rest is easy.  --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 13:57:03 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3011 alt.paranormal:3647


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes...
>..
>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>
>
>                    --
>--



        ARRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!  People  get  a  life!!!!!!   Wake up and
        smell the coffee!!!!!!!!!!

        There is no astoroid  (known)  heading  for  Earth!  There are NO
        astoroids being detected ENTERING the solar system.  There are NO
        clones of Gary Stollman 8^)  and we need to get on with our lives
        and quit worrying about whether scientists  are right or wrong or
        if spiritual beings live on Venus.  All of the reports like these
        come  from Tabloids and those who claim to  be  in  contact  with
        whatever.  This stuff should not only be taken  with  a  grain of
        salt but an entire salt lick.

        FYI

        I just read an article about astronomers  who have just completed
        a survey of part of the sky looking  for  comets  in  a theorized
        shell  near  the  orbit of Neptune.   This shell  is  called  the
        Kuniper  Shell/Cloud  (sort  of like the theorized Ort Cloud) and
        nothing  was  discovered.

        It  is very hard to detect objects  at  anydistance  due  to  low
        albedos and "not a lot of light to  reflect".   If there had been
        any  discoverys  of Astroids/Comets that were heading in for  the
        kill  or even suspected of a near miss then the  many  scientific
        journals  would  have been filled with talk of these.  There  has
        been nothing absolutely nothing.

        I know I am  going  to catch alot of flak over this but I just am
        real tired of the doom  and  gloomers  who  see  boogie  men  and
        astoroids around every corner and "Grays"  lurking  in  the  dark
        corners with fork and knife ready to carve me up for supper.

        This is a VERY paranoid file.

        Steve



        "Beware the Jub Jub Bird"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!cmuvm!343qazu
From: [e-mail] (Russell E. Cox III)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Info about Prescott area, Az.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 20:04:57 GMT
Organization: Central Michigan University
Lines: 9

I was a student at Embry Riddle Aeronautical Univ located in Prescott, Az
three years ago.  We had a lecture about alien activity out side the town
in the desert.  NASA spoke and stated that nothing was goining on.  But
then this old man spoke, he lives in the desert and stated he sees UFO's
all the time and if anyone wanted to come out they could see them to.  He
also stated that aliens had put something in his lower calf. We all thought
the old man was "way out their" but after a few years of thinking I often
wonder if this man is telling the truth?
                             The Waterbearer of Hope -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 16:16:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 24
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Timpson) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes...

>>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????

...

>        ARRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!  People  get  a  life!!!!!!   Wake up and
>        smell the coffee!!!!!!!!!!
>
>        There is no astoroid  (known)  heading  for  Earth!  There are NO
>        astoroids being detected ENTERING the solar system.  There are NO

...

I think you just made kibo's day.

--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the asteroid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 18:25:47 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 18


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] () writes...
>
>About a week ago I posted, and asked for more information concerning
>the story about the dracos.  One of my questions concerned the
>asteroid that the dracos are supposedly using in their trip to
>earth.
>
>I received the following response via E-mail from an Aussie.

I don't believe this has anything to do with the Dracos at all.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!kannel!Janne.Anttila
From: [e-mail] (Janne Anttila)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tornado
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 19:25:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Janne Anttila)
Organization: The Student Union of Lappeenranta U of Tech, Finland
Lines: 13
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 13 Nov 91 09:31:52 GMT
Disclaimer: Homer panee: Bart!, min{ panen: Yo!

>>>>> On 13 Nov 91 09:31:52 GMT, [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown) said:

>> Has anyone ever heard of blue lights in the sky with destruction
>> of property close by?

Eh, how about lightnings?

--
                    _________________________________________________
  Janne Anttila    /> ...mutta Saturnuksesta l{hestyy taivaanlaiva. />
                  />   Veljet, meid{n on syyt{ olla varuillamme,   />
  [{ni ylh{{lt{  />  sill{ Saturnuksen miehet eiv{t tunne armoa.  />
_________________________________________________________________/>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!webo!dg-webo!tom
From: [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 22:53:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Administration)
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 13 Nov 91 01:02:26 GMT

>>>>> On 13 Nov 91 01:02:26 GMT, [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) said:

Ryk> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan) writes:
>detected (ie light) actually exist.  Thus, 150 years ago, most of the
>EM spectrum, using your own terms, would be religated to guess,
>opinion, or unreason.  Such would, and should, under such

Ryk>     BUZZ! The difference, my good man, is that any opinion on such
Ryk> matters could be TESTED. If you were to postulate, 150 years ago, the
Ryk> existence of such things, you could then have defined a set of conditions
Ryk> which would demonstrate the existence of the things that you were
Ryk> theorizing.

And I've seen the same done for psi, etc.  Tests have been conducted
that show that psi does work.  The best doc on this that I've seen (in
one place), is Nova's "The Case for ESP".  Very good program, with
experimental results on remote viewing, finding shipwrecks, and a very
impressive display of telekinesis.  Still, High Priests of Science
(and it IS a religion, you know) will poo poo anything that's
demonstrated since it doesn't fit their world view.

>grammar by design).  Thank goodness Tesla, Maxwell, Marconi, etc,
>didn't think this way.  They were open to possibilities.  That's what

Ryk>     All three of the above, and other scientists who discovered
Ryk> new things, did so by building on the known and noticing things that
Ryk> were detectable in the real world. Each one came up with theoretical
Ryk> models of the world which described the phenomena they were trying to
Ryk> explain, and then they proceeded to TEST these phenomena. They would
Ryk> not have tried to advance as science anything which they could not
Ryk> either test or prove logically (Einstein's relativity was at first only
Ryk> demonstrable in mathematical terms; but even here you have a form
Ryk> of concreteness in that everyone can agree on what mathematics mean
Ryk> and that they mean the same thing to all mathematicians).

Bullshit Ryk!  Einstein stated that he "felt" relativity.  His
theories turned the "real world" on its head.  Discoveries are often
made by incrementally building on the known.  SOME, however, come
forth from a burst of creativity and intuitive inspiration.  You
arguments would seemingly deny intuition, which is information flow
outside of the rational mind and logic.  I also KNOW it works, because
I design and debug intuitively.  I've wracked my brain on a bug for a
week (I tend to be very logical myself as a default approach).  ONLY
after I gave up on logic and INVOKED intuition in these situations did
the solution present itself, always within 1/2 or so, and usually when
my rational mind as occupied with other tasks.  Einstein set out to
prove what he first perceived with math, not the other way around!

BTW, I try to use my intuition much earlier in my endeavors these
days.

>more power to them (you,I).  Your statements would limit us to science
>that we already know, and close the door to investigation of that
>which is possible but as yet, still unproven.  Unfortunately, your
>closed minded approach to phenomena and the physical universe in
>general is a shared malaise.  I feel that it hinders science.  Too
>bad.


Ryk>     This is a common misconception of the scientific method. Science
Ryk> is open to ANYTHING new; but for it to enter the realm of science it

That's a lie!  Science is not open to anything that would shake its
current conceptual framework.  When such is proposed, you see struting
and positioning reminiscent of any bunch of religious fanatics.  As I
posted to Scott the Great, check out the Cold Fusion debacle.  Turns
out that researchers are STILL getting bursts of Neutrons, Tritium,
and radiation, but not in expected quantities for the amount of heat
being produced.  This led many "scientists" to exclaim that it was all
bullshit, but its the most active topic (STILL) in sci.physics.fusion.
Politics and fanaticsm are human traits.  Scientists are human, so you
see these same traits in their endeavors.  The scientist is religious
about his science and what he believes just as the Christian or Moslem
is about their beliefs.  Science is NOT some holy grail to all
understanding.  Its a very useful tool, but NOT an end unto itself.
Your postings indicate to me that you believe in science as the only
useful method for discovery.  THIS is what I take exception to.

Ryk> must be stated in a way that is open for testing. If not now, then in
Ryk> a forseeable future, and it must not conflict with known science, nor
Ryk> require a too-drastic revision of the known UNLESS evidence can be
Ryk> shown requiring that drastic revision (Galileo's famous dropped-object
Ryk> experiment is an example of that; Einstein's Theory of Relativity is
Ryk> another).

Ryk>     In this case the talk is dealing with mystic/religious subjects
Ryk> that have been around since the dawn of history, and none of them yet
Ryk> have a shred of evidence for them (UNLIKE all the scientific advances
Ryk> you name above) and most of them being illogical or just plain silly.

Check out that Nova I mentioned.  This is one source of good evidence.
I personally don't believe reality to be logical.  Our brains and egos
will interpret data according to their own set of filters, and these
are what we BELIEVE reality to be.  If you are logically based, you'll
filter what you perceive with the filter of logic.  This leads to
branding anything that your logic can't explain to silliness or worse
yet, illogic!  The flaw in this kind of thinking is that all logic
must be based on a set of axioms.  If you use an incomplete set of
axioms, there will be errors in your logic.  I do NOT believe that
20th century science is working from a complete set of axioms.  If it
were, all would be discovered, and there would be no new science, just
technology!  As such, such logic is flawed due to its incomplete (and
probobly incorrect due to lack of information) basis upon which it is
built.  This is not to say that such is useless.  It clearly is
useful, but only by the accuracy of its approximation to reality.
NOW, to say that such exists because it is logical, and such does not
because it is illogical, assumes perfect logic, which is based on
axioms.  Since, by definition, science is still in the job of
discovery, there are still axioms yet to be discovered.  As such,
logic is still not working with a complete deck.  You cannot say, on
the basis of logic, that anything does not exist.  With a complete set
of axioms, I feel that logic could probably explain everything, but I
feel that we are FAR from having a complete set of axioms upon which
we can absolutely conclude anything about reality.  To state that
anything does not exist is poor logic.

Now, I am sure that there are many things being bantered about that
do, in fact, either not exist, or if they do, are still not "useful"
to man's current endeavors.  It's easy to prove gross, physical
phenomena exists.  Its difficult to prove that something in the realm
of thought or emotion exists, but we experience these subjectively.
It may be that human brains/minds are better detectors of thought (ie
channeling, intuitive discovery, psi, etc) than instrumentation we can
(today) build.  To say that such does not exist is to 1) refute
thousands of such recorded occurences that persist over the entire
history of mankind, and 2) assumes, once again, that logic is God like
in its capabilities to ascertain what is and is not.  I've already
shown why logic can't be used to definitively say such.  To CLING to
logic as you (and others like you) do, is a very limited religion.

You would be better served to logically classify phenomena into the
categories of that which is proven, that which is disproved, and that
which is, as yet, unprovable.  To state that items in this last
category do not exist, are silly, are poor logic, or what have you,
are simply a replay of religious fanaticsm.

Keep an open mind on what might be.  You'll live in a much larger
world, and a world that is more congruous with the "real world".

Good luck to you on your philosophic evolution...Tom
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!webo!dg-webo!tom
From: [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 23:06:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Administration)
Distribution: usa
Organization: NSDD, Data General Corp.
Lines: 24
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 13 Nov 91 02:32:24 GMT

>>>>> On 13 Nov 91 02:32:24 GMT, [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) said:

Kathy> Ryk Spoor:  I said nothing about being "in love".  I said
Kathy> when one IS the RADIATION of LOVE.  Read the sentence again,
Kathy> don't change it.

Kathy> About Ben Kenobi:  No, he would not PROVE it.  He would be a teacher
Kathy> to those learning of truth, but they would have their own direct
Kathy> experince of it.  He could not give them HIS experience.  He would
Kathy> offer it only to those with an open mind, open to possibilities
Kathy> they previously knew not existed.

Kathy> Regarding your comments about mind:  Ryk, it is futile even
Kathy> for me to ATTEMPT to discuss any of this with you, even hope
Kathy> that you might comprehend what I am saying is beyond explanation.
Kathy> When you make intuitive openings at other levels of your being,
Kathy> you will KNOW what I am talking about.  But then again, it may
Kathy> not happen for many lifetimes to come for you.

Kathy> I give up.

Probably a wise move.  One cannot argue with a closed mind!

Tom
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pacdata!johnr
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: more on the asteroid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 23:48:48 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (John Reed)
Organization: Pacific Data Products
Lines: 90

The following text was sent to me in response to my question about
"the asteroid".  Thanks goes to David Morrison for sending me this.

JR



|Okay I have found the article.
|I cannot supply you with the date the article was printed, but it
|was printed in "The Age" news paper, Melbourne Victoria, Australia.
|
|The article is titled "Asteroid boosts mass extinction theory"
|It talks to some extent about the idea of Near Earth Asteroids - and the
|possibility of Earth being struck by one.
|
|Anyhow, on to what you wanted.
|
|  The article was written by "Graeme O'Neil"
|  "Two Australian astronomers have discovered an unusual new asteroid..."
|
|  "Dr Duncan Steel and Dr Rob McNaught, using the British Schmidt Telescope
|  at the Anglo-Australian Observatory at Siding Springs, found a new asteroid
|  that takes it closer to the sun than Mercury, before swinging out
|  past Earth."
|
|  "When they computed the orbit of the asteroid, designated 1991RC, they
|  found it was highly unusual - and almost identical to that of a large
|  asteroid discovered 42 years ago, called Icarus. Icarus belongs to a class
|  of asteroids called Earth-grazers, whose orbits intersect that of Earth."
|
|  "Dr Steel said yesterday that it was extremely unlikely that Icarus and
|  1991RC shared the same orbit by chance; the likely explanation was that
|  both had been created by the break-up of a larger object, probably a comet,
|  within the past few thousand years." - the plot thickens!
|
|  "Although the two asteroids are in the same orbit, they are well separated.
|  Dr Steel and Dr McNaught plan to use a powerful computer to retrace their
|  orbits to determine when they split."
|
|  "He said Icarus, although classified as an asteroid, exhibited irregularities
|  in its orbit that suggested that it was emitting powerful jets of gas,
|  just like a comet, when it approached the sun."
|
|  "Dr Steel is among a growing group of astronomers who consider the
|  distinction between asteroids and comets largely arbitrary; that asteroids
|  are really the rocky cores of extinct comets, or frozen comets that have
|  yet to enter the inner solar system, where they are activated by the
|  sun's heat."
|
|  "Astronomers have been observing an object in the latter category, an
|  asteroid called Chiron, which follows a remote orbit between Jupiter
|  and Saturn. Chiron, which at 250 kilometers across is one of the largest
|  asteroids discovered, brightened unexpectedly last year, suggesting that
|  it has begun to spew jets of gas It may in fact be a nascent comet."
|
|Well thats really all the relevant stuff from the article. Thats about
|2/5'th of it.
|
|It really makes you wonder doesn't it? What would be VERY interesting is
|to know exactly when according to its present direction it will cross
|Earth's orbit. And at that time where the Earth will be in its orbit?
|The same place perhaps? Or very close? What are the chances of it entering
|into orbit around us?
|
|If you find out it will pass through our orbit in 1996/97, then start
|worrying, because thats one time I've heard on when it will be VERY close
|to us!
|
|If you do some research into it, I'd like to know what you turn up. But
|I think caution should be exercised. If just some of what I've heard is
|correct then people will not want you poking your nose around (especially
|if 1991RC is the one!). Well I'll leave it there.
|
|
|Happy hunting!





--


   /------------------------------------------------------------------\
  |  John Reed                           {ucsd,uunet}!pacdata!johnr    |
  |  Pacific Data Products               [e-mail]   |
  |                    ---------------------                           |
  |     Interest on the Federal debt is now at about $1 billion per    |
  |     day and growing.             --From: CNN Crossfire--           |
   \------------------------------------------------------------------/
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!psuvm!cunyvm!g13lg
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: WANTED: Ufo GIFs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 21:57:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Lines: 6




QUIT
QUIT
QUIT
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uflorida!traveler
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gary Stollman
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 17:13:57 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: traveler
Organization: University of Florida  (ufl.edu)
Lines: 103
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4


    The continuing narratives of Mr. Stollman are certainly
some of the most interesting stuff I've read in a long time
(though maybe if I'd been reading this group for a while, I'd
be coming across this sort of thing regularly).  I have a few
points to make and questions to ask, which I'm sure he has
heard from other people.
    Gary, from what you've said, you have met a number of
people who react in various hostile ways to your stories.
It seems to me that you have invariably interpreted this as a
sign of a conspiracy against you.  I refer to various run-ins
with police, psychological people, etc., as well as friends,
family, and people off the street.  Your story is worth
considering objectively: could there be a massive conspiracy
behind the scenes attempting to control us?  Some of the
evidence you give could be interpreted towards that end.  But
the problem is that you ALWAYS seem to interpret it that way,
even when there are other more innocous and more likely
explanations.
    For example: you thought people from Cali. were following
you.  Why?  Because you happen to be from CA, and saw a car
with CA plates at a few spots in Virginia.  Maybe those people
who "ran in terror" when they saw you by their car were afraid
of you--maybe they thought YOU were a nut following THEM!  I
must say,  on many family vacations I've had the experience of
driving thru a particular stretch of country and running into
the same people over a number of days.  And do you know how
many CA license plates there are out there!?  My point is, you
have chosen the most paranoid (yes, that is the term) inter-
pretation possible.
    Why do you think authorities have treated you strangely?
From the evidence YOU give, it sounds like their reaction is
"This guy is a nut!" not "It's Gary Stollman, focus of our
Evil Master Plan!"  I'm not saying you ARE a nut, I'm saying
that that easily explains their reactions.
    Let me say that I have entertained the idea of a "master
plan" from time to time; for example, one of my favorite
speculations is " What if my life is all a sort of movie, and
everyone I know is acting their part?"  But one comes to realize
that these musings are just that--musings--and not the truth.
Doubtless you've heard this before, but to believe you're the
focus of a bizarre conspiracy is really rather egotistical;
in other words, you flatter yourself.  WHY would "They" go after
you?  You mentioned haveing problems making friends in high school
(and I gather this has continued since you've begun reacting
to an invisible conspiracy [by the way, have you tried alt.
conspiracy?]).  I am not ragging on you for this--I know what
that's like, because for much of my life, I've had similar
problems.
    When I was a kid, I got pushed around by students and
teachers.  I was shy and introverted, and naturally a loner;
my treatment by others exacerbated this.  I used to make up
stories and adventures in which I'd place myself.  They ran
something like this: I was a secrety agent on a special mission
for a force of good that was located far away.  But now I was
here, in hostile territory, all alone.  I was the only one who
saw the truth--I was the only one who knew many secrets--and
I was in extreme danger all the time because of this.  As I
grew older, I elaborated these stories, to the point that I am
now outlining a series of novels based on this "alter ego"
character.  But the point is, I never totally BELIEVED these
stories, and some years ago I quite definitely made a break
with them--I separated my identity from my created character.
    I relate this to illustrate a point.  My alter ego (I
was, incidentally, a powerful humanoid alien with 12 lives,
and various powers) was a psychological compensation for my
real self, which was weak and in a hostile situation.  My
whole fantasy life was a structure I evolved to shelter myself
from the real, and often brutal, world outside.  But, thank
God, as I grew up, I became strong enough to tentatively reach
out, step by step, to other people.  My antisocial orientation
gradually has changed, though it has been a long and painful
and very conscious process of change.
    It seems that my story resembles very closely that of many
people on this group, who believe that they are at the center
of an evil conspiracy, are actually powerful alien beings
exiled or in disguise here on Earth, etc.  My point is that I
too adopted (if only to alimited extent) beliefs of this sort,
but I came to realize how they were a psychological compensation
mechanism.  I am grateful to my fantasies (which are partyl
based on scifi that I've read or watched, and partly my own
creation) for all that they gave and continue to give me, but am
glad that I can now live in the real world without needing them.
    It seems to me that the people I am speaking to are very
unlikely to question their own beliefs, and some of them (I'm
not pointing fingers) may well be in such a mental state that
they are incapable of really questionaing them.  Still, some
may be teetering on the brink--like I was--and capable of
maturing into truly wonderful, self-confident, socially capable
people.  In any case, I wish good will to you all, whatever you
believe about yourself and others.
    My final point for Mr. Stollman: If THEY are out to get you,
why have they allowed you to post on this group freely?
    (P.S. I hope you don't come to consider me one of them for
the suggestions I've made above.)

--Max

-------------------------------------------------------------
    "Enjoy life--this is not a dress rehearsal."
-------------------------------------------------------------
    Max Clarke     The Traveler     At UF
-------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gary Stollman
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 01:17:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 10

I have a question for Gary:

How do you know you are a clone?  Did your mother have some
story to tell you here, or what?  Maybe I missed something in
your first post, but what makes you feel that you were 'cloned'?

And what does your father have to say about all this?  Are both
of your parents still alive?

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 01:23:21 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 31

Tom Sullivan makes an interesting post to Ryk Spoor about
scientists and their religion of science, etc.

Tom:  That was a really good post.  You sound like my kind of
guy!!  I think "teachable" people are those who do not know (and
ADMIT) they do not know everything, but are "Open" to being
taught or having things shown/revealed to them, etc.

It seems that inventors are really "open" people (to imagination).
I think creativity and imagination are linked, and people who are
highly creative are quite right brained and into the flow of
creative/divine energy.  Think of how people are "moved" when they
hear a great musician playing a violin or a pianist playing a
beautiful concerto.  I wonder if the cold prove it to me scientist
ever gets stirred in his being to the ecstasies that beautiful
music (vibration) has to offer.  In fact, I downright just plain
wonder about even how much passion a cold scientific person would
even have in his being.

The merging of the right and left brain: I think maybe that is
an important thing for many.  Unfortunately, a lot of people seem
to be quite caught and contented in only one section of the brain.

Oh, to have the wonder of a child inside....!!!  Those without it,
I suspect, are quite dead.

Kathy

"Every soul has his own way in life; if you walk another's way,
you mut borrow his eyes."
    --Hazrat Inayat Khan
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!ac.dal.ca!bcrenna
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Non-Newtonian Behaviour and UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 00:26:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Lines: 83

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Brent) writes:
>
> (Somebody else suggests that):
>
>> [... UFOs do things...] such as make right angle
>> turns that would seem to violate Newton's Second Law,
>
> Well, this doesn't necessarily violate any physical laws.  If a car runs
> into a very solid brick wall, it'll usually bounce off, but it basically
> stops.  If the wall was angled to the right or left, the car would merely
> bounce off in that direction - that's the same as UFO's making right
> angle turns.  My point is that given a large enough force (wall), a body
> moving in one direction can be redirected into another direction.  Spacecraft,
> and I'm talking about the Shuttle and other human kinds, move about in space
> using very abrupt movements.  They fire rockets in one direction to rotate
> the craft in another direction, and later fire rockets (by the same amount)
> in the opposite direction to stop rotating.  Both the start and the stop of
> the rotation is abrupt; again, not a violation of any physical laws.
>
>   I guess by saying something seems to "violate Newton's Second Law" adds
> a little mysticism and appeal to the subject...
>
> (deleted)
>
> Well, sure we could ask them.  But that doesn't mean any laws were violated,
>it only means that the craft abruptly turned.

While I agree that the rapid changes in direction ascribed to some UFOs need
not imply a violation of classical mechanics principles, you might also
consider the following:

From simple mechanics, we have the relation
              t
   Impulse = S Fdt = P  - P .  (Sorry, my editor doesn't have an integral sign.)
              0       f    i

For a massive object travelling at considerable speed, an abrupt change in
direction necessitates a large impulse; that is, either a small force acting
over a relatively long period of time (which is inconsistent with the "abrupt"
idea), or a large force acting over a short time interval (as in your "car and
wall" example.)  From the descriptions of the motions UFOs purportedly display,
it would seem that the acceleration occurs during a very brief time indeed
(say, on the order of milliseconds).  Therefore, a large force must be acting.
Just for fun, suppose an object of mass 500kg travelling at a speed of 100 m/s
reverses direction in a time period of 10 milliseconds (these are probably all
on the conservative side, given what's been described sometimes); we can easily
calculate that the average force acting must be 10 million Newtons:
     _
     F =   Pf - Pi     (-mv) - mv    -(500kg)(100m/s) - (500kg)(100 m/s)
          ---------  = ----------- = ----------------------------------
           tf - ti       tf - ti                 (.01 s)

             7       2
       = - 10  kg m/s ( the "-" indicates it's directed opposite the original
                        motion)

I expect that this value could be increased by an order of magnitude by playing
with the numbers a bit.  I'm not an engineer, but that sounds like a fairly
large force to go exerting on a compact, aerodynamic structure, no matter how
uniformly it's done over the extent of the body (please, correct me if I'm
wrong).
      Of course, I can easily avoid the consideration of applied forces.  I
phrased this in terms of forces only because you did; if we consider the
acceleration in the same example (assuming it's a constant), we
have
            vf - vi       (-100m/s) - (100 m/s)               2
      a = -----------  =  ---------------------   = -20000 m/s  = 2000g
            tf - ti              (.01 s)

Any occupant of the craft would experience an acceleration 2000 times the
gravitational acceleration at the earth's surface, which I expect would neatly
flatten them along the interior walls (or perhaps imbed them into the leading
edge).  So, either the inhabitants are on a phenomenal weight training program,
or nobody's on board and the craft are remarkably constructed to withstand
these accelerations, or there's something rather mysterious about the whole
process, or it isn't actually occurring.
      Thus, no violations of Newtonian mechanics requires some equally mystical
feats of engineering and biomechanics; assuming the craft and occupants are (in
a materials science sense) rather unremarkable, something distinctly
non-Newtonian is going on.  Unless, of course, it isn't occurring in the first
place.
      I apologise if what I've said is too trivial for words, or if I've made
any mistakes; sometimes both the obvious and sarcasm in others eludes me....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!wdm
From: [e-mail] (Wayne D Michael)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 03:16:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 23
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3024 alt.paranormal:3650

[e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:

>.
>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????

No.

The earth will be destroyed one day, but I doubt it will
be next July 13, and I doubt it will be by an asteroid. I wouldn't
worry about it though, odds are you'll be have been dust for a few
billion years :-)

Much more likely is that an asteroid will just destroy civilization as we
know it, leaving the planet pretty much in tact. Even this event is still
pretty unlikely to happen in your lifespan.

Wayne


--
Wayne Michael
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!rice!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The purpose of our Earth, and our relation with the Pleiadians, et al.
Summary: We grow up on our planet, we leave it, we populate others.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 04:28:29 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 61


I found an interesting excerpt in the book "UFO Contact from the
Pleiades" (which I found quite inspiring) that I would like to share
as an explanation for the big picture of us Earthlings, our relation
with the aliens who visit us, and the universe surrounding us:

     "Three years ago when I was examining the possibilities of the
Pleiadian story, I came across the work of the Laboratoire de
Recherche A. Kranninem of Bruxelles, a think tank, who had spent years
in exhaustive study of the origin of UFO's. I combined essential parts
of this study with observed data in two very specific UFO cases, in an
unpublished manuscript entitled, "An Origin For UFOs".
     "This study demonstrated quite conclusively that SPACE IS THE
NATURAL HABITAT OF EVOLVED INTELLIGENT LIFE, that events in the life
cycles of solar systems and their planets are such that the hospitable
life-bearing stage of a planet is comparatively short, and that the
intelligent creatures developed must produce a technology and
eventually leave the planet if they are to survive. Once this step is
mastered they live in huge "mother-ships", artificial worlds, of their
own creation perfectly adapted to their own need and constantly
maintained and perfected by them. In their artificial environment they
con control all elements of atmospheric condition, nourishment,
disease, radiation, exposure, etc., and succeed in prolonging their
physical livess substantially. They produce all that they need by
condensation of the matter of space.
     "The artificial worlds are entirely self-sufficient and depend on
no other planet or physical body for support. They are maintained and
cruise space indefinitely. The life aboard these huge ships is almost
ideal, and they experience little of the social and economic pressures
of a growing society.
     "In this sense a planet may be likened to an incubator -- a nest
where humanity is born and evolves to early maturity and then leaves
the nest, never to return. To return would amount to a step backwards
and is no more likely than an adult bird returning to its nest or
birth. Who wants to take any completed steps all over again?
     "These mature adults then spend a considerable amount of their
time examining and studying yoounger societies still on their worlds,
taking part in active prepatation of other planets for life, and in
seeding and nurturing such life when the planet is ready.
     "Now this sounds very much like the story told to Eduard Meier by
the Pleiadian cosmonauts, and I have verified that Meier knows nothing
of the think tank research, and they know nothing of him, or at least
they did not at the time I was in contact with them."

Hey, I get it! Our collective Earth race is a macrocosmic example of a
child learning and still living under the protection of their mother.
Hey Pleiadians and all you other aliens out there that have been
working with us Earthlings so patiently and compassionately in our
collective youth: Even if it may not seem like it, trust that in spite
of our times of war and corruption, that slowly we of Earth are
learning the ways of love, and will eventually advance into maturity,
spiritually and well as technologically, so we may in harmony and
peace consciously work with you all in the furthering of our divine
Creation!

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ [e-mail] \  /  \  /  \  /
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ "Few things matter much...                                                 /
/                  ... most things do not matter at all" - Bishop Leadbeater \
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!csn0441
From: [e-mail] (Csn0441)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Non-Newtonian Behaviour and UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 04:51:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
   ( ... lots of stuff deleted about UFOs not following Newton's
     laws of motion ... )
>      Thus, no violations of Newtonian mechanics requires some equally mystical
>feats of engineering and biomechanics; assuming the craft and occupants are (in
>a materials science sense) rather unremarkable, something distinctly
>non-Newtonian is going on.  Unless, of course, it isn't occurring in the first
>place.

Besides there being much progress in physics since Newton, (and no end to
such progress in sight)  I don't think the implication here is UFOs are
being designed by college science students.   No, the implication here is
that someone with a little more knowledge than Newton is building them.
(Sorry about a bit of sarcasm, but the most important thing I learned from
  college physics was that we don't know it all, and that we don't know
  how far we are from knowing it all ).
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 01:10:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3027 alt.slack:1708 talk.religion.newage:7685

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
 (Nick Christenson, University of Arizona) writes:
>
> There are no "good" E.T.'s, and the bad ones have not yet manifested
> themselves in any form you can detect until you have cleared the sinuses
> of your Third Nostril.
>
> Note, in accordance with the principles of the SubGenius, I can not give
> information that can lead to the acquisition of slack for free.  So, everyone
> who reads this has to send me $30.  Beware, the Time and Half Time approaches!
> That is all.
>
> Oh, if you don't want to hear this on your newsgroup, don't crosspost to
> alt.slack.
>
>
> Nick Christenson


Well Nick, that's a lot of money for your two cents worth, but I did enjoy
your reply to Don Allen so much that I will send you a photo of $30 ($A that is)
when my GIFF generator is fixed. More please.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!gara!scavanag
From: [e-mail] (LIGHTCHILD)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 03:41:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: University of New England, Armidale, Australia
Lines: 9
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3028 alt.paranormal:3651

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry):
> ..
>     HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>

Stupid! it's 27th August 1997!

Hasta la vista!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 03:21:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 136


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan) writes:

    Jeez, if I'd known you were POSTING this I wouldn't have answered it
in Email.

>And I've seen the same done for psi, etc.  Tests have been conducted
>that show that psi does work.  The best doc on this that I've seen (in
>one place), is Nova's "The Case for ESP".  Very good program, with

    ...With badly flawed controls. Believe me, if someone could PROVE
it, they would. Randi alone would be worth a good deal of money, and the
cost of the demonstration for Telekinesis, especially, would be minimal.

>(and it[science] IS a religion, you know) will poo poo anything that's
>demonstrated since it doesn't fit their world view.

    Bad scientists, maybe. I am willing to change my entire worldview
WITH EVIDENCE. But solid evidence is yet to be seen.

>Bullshit Ryk!  Einstein stated that he "felt" relativity.  His
>theories turned the "real world" on its head.  Discoveries are often
>made by incrementally building on the known.  SOME, however, come
>forth from a burst of creativity and intuitive inspiration.  You
>arguments would seemingly deny intuition, which is information flow
>outside of the rational mind and logic.  I also KNOW it works, because

    Nope. Einstein "felt" relativity because his subconscious mind
had noted and partly interpreted the minor differences between the understood
world and the actual data.

    Intuition is not some cosmic "sense"; it is (and I consider this to
be just as awesome as any godlike apparition) the subconscious operation of
a massive subroutine on that monstrous neural-net computer we call the brain.
The conscious mind has a fair number of limits on it which are taken up
a lot by the simple demands of living. The subconscious is capable of
farming out a problem and solving it over a period of time through many
different methods.
    I used intuition quite a bit when I was a hacker; I could often
"feel" how a program was going to oppose me, even though I could not
CONSCIOUSLY have written out the program logic, let alone the code.
But that wasn't some supernatural sense of reality; it was my powerful
subconscious running a hell of a pattern-recognition and analysis program
which was beyond my conscious control.
    Good thing it IS beyond conscious control, too; if we had to
control all that we would never get anything ELSE done.

>posted to Scott the Great, check out the Cold Fusion debacle.  Turns
>out that researchers are STILL getting bursts of Neutrons, Tritium,
>and radiation, but not in expected quantities for the amount of heat
>being produced.  This led many "scientists" to exclaim that it was all
>bullshit, but its the most active topic (STILL) in sci.physics.fusion.
>Politics and fanaticsm are human traits.  Scientists are human, so you

    As your own post shows.
    The reason that CF is still under discussion as much as it is
on s.p.f (which I read myself) is because *IT* has true believers. They
are the ones with "religious" approaches (actually, most of them went
way the hell out on a limb to publish this and now they HAVE to stay
with it or they bury themselves).

    MOST GOOD SCIENTISTS WOULD LOVE TO SEE CNF be a reality. But
all these experiments with neutron bursts (without controls to make sure
that it's not an equipment artifact) tritium production (without neutrons),
excess heat (calculated in almost ridiculous ways) fail the simplest test
of science: REPRODUCIBILITY!!!
    IF this is a real thing, the experiments should be reproducible
by anyone with the equipment. We are talking physics here, not psi, where
you might argue that the "unbelievers" are inhibiting the functioning of
the psi; an atom doesn't give a ram's damn WHAT you think.

>is about their beliefs.  Science is NOT some holy grail to all
>understanding.  Its a very useful tool, but NOT an end unto itself.
>Your postings indicate to me that you believe in science as the only
>useful method for discovery.  THIS is what I take exception to.

    Science is the only way to approach things and get a USEFUL
understanding of anything past the Greek era.

>Check out that Nova I mentioned.  This is one source of good evidence.

    I did. It isn't. See above.

>I personally don't believe reality to be logical.  Our brains and egos
>will interpret data according to their own set of filters, and these
>are what we BELIEVE reality to be.  If you are logically based, you'll

    REALITY does not change according to what you believe. If you
believe that you are Superman, it won't slow down that bullet at all.
Reality follows physical laws. We may not KNOW all those laws yet, but
ANY physical laws that remain to be discovered MUST be able to subsume
within them, or be subsumed by, the physical law systems that we already know.
Einstein's theory of relativity did NOT invalidate Newtonian mechanics. It
simply showed that Newtonian Physics were a special case of Relativity
and defined that special case beautifully. Any new laws of Reality will
have to be able to do the same with Einstein... and they will be just
as subject to logic and analysis as Relativity and Newtonian Mechanics.



>It may be that human brains/minds are better detectors of thought (ie
>channeling, intuitive discovery, psi, etc) than instrumentation we can
>(today) build.  To say that such does not exist is to 1) refute

    I don't NEED to detect these (totally hypothetical) thoughtwaves
to prove the existence of such things; I just have to be able to measure
reproducibly their EFFECTS. (I.e., show that paperclip levitating off
the table, or have that channeled spirit lead me directly to a valuable
artifact that could NEVER have been found otherwise...)

>shown why logic can't be used to definitively say such.  To CLING to
>logic as you (and others like you) do, is a very limited religion.


    A lot less limited than believing in something that you can't
even show exists. At least logic WORKS, as does science.


>Keep an open mind on what might be.  You'll live in a much larger
>world, and a world that is more congruous with the "real world".

    I ALWAYS have an open mind. But as my quote says, I keep a
mental screen door up to keep out the mental bugs. You can't let everything
in; you have to filter out the nonsense. Logic makes a great and useful
filter.

    And it's tough for my world to be any larger than it is... the universe
is nearly infinite... ;)


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;

"A mind can be open and still retain a screen door to keep the
 bugs from flying in." -- Jason Wood
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!sjcupps
From: [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 06:30:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps)
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3030 talk.religion.newage:7687 alt.slack:1710

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
writes:
> no, there ARE good E.T.'s, and they're in the same piece o' shit boat as we
> humans are, so hell lot of help they'll be anyway. I've got a goddamned
> trespassers will by nuked sign on my planet, and I don't want any damn
> nice-hi-we're-here-to spread-peace and universal love space brother aliens
> snooping around my house. Give me mean bastards with guns a-shootin' so I
> can shoot back. I cook goddamned nice ETs and eat them for lunch!

And to think I was against gun control laws......
--

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sara J. Cupps               | I was dead once, ...I forgot to renew my
email: [e-mail]  |  subscription to "Life".
plane of existance: zepp    |
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!sjcupps
From: [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 07:01:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 55


James, your mail bounced so I'm posting this.

-> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James 'Kibo'
Parry) writes...
>
>         I just read an article about astronomers who have just completed
>         a survey of part of the sky looking for comets in a theorized
>         shell near the orbit of Neptune. This shell is called the
>         Kuniper Shell/Cloud  (sort of like the theorized Ort Cloud) and
>         nothing was discovered.

....One survey does not a fact make.  Oh, and it's Oort, not Ort.

>         It is very hard to detect objects at any distance due to low
>         albedos and "not a lot of light to reflect".  If there had been
>         any discoveries of Astroids/Comets that were heading in for the
>         kill  or even suspected of a near miss then the many scientific
>         journals would have been filled with talk of these. There has
>         been nothing absolutely nothing.

*Non-luminous objects can be detected, if they are large enough, by the amount
of light NOT being detected.  Objects such as astroids are too small for this
and cannot be detected until very near the Earth.  So there could be one out
near Pluto.  Scientists have been studying an anomaly in Pluto and Charon's
orbit which could point toward another planet or other large body.*
>
>         I know I am going to catch alot of flak over this

*          Yep. *

>         but I just am real *really?*
>         tired of the doom  and  gloomers  who  see  boogie  men  and
>         astoroids around every corner and "Grays"  lurking  in  the  dark
>         corners with fork and knife ready to carve me up for supper.
>
>         This is a VERY paranoid file.
>
*      Yes, perhaps it is; you may be right to a degree.   However, this is
alt.alien.visitors, not alt.just.the.facts.  I believe it's okay to speculate
on possibilities and express your own view of reality.  Or am I wrong? *

>         Steve
>
>         "Beware the Jub Jub Bird"

*    "...and the frumious Bandersnatch." *

*   an amateur astronomer *

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sara J. Cupps               | I was dead once, ...I forgot to renew my
email: [e-mail]  |  subscription to "LIFE".
plane of existance: zepp    |
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!unlinfo.unl.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!richh
From: [e-mail] (RichHalbs)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 05:20:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 9
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3032 alt.paranormal:3652

[e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:

> ...
>     HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????

I heard.  And I, quite frankly, am scared.

RICHH
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Continuum
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 00:26:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 14

Recently, we sent out over 300 complimentary issues of ParaNet's official bi-
monthly news magazine, Continuum.  I would love to hear some feedback on our
efforts.  Also, if you haven't sent in your subscription, hurry!  The next
issue is on its way to the layout department and should be ready for mailing
in a couple of weeks.

Thanks,

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john
From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tornado
Message-ID: <1991Nov13.235622.24659@anasaz>
Date: 13 Nov 91 23:56:22 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA
Lines: 22

Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown) writes:
]On radio1 in England this morning, a news item stated
]that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado.
]It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter,
]but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there
]was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before
]the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe.

It is not unusual for there to be continuous lightning associated with
a tornado, which can look like a brilliant blue light (it doesn't look
like ordinary lighting because it is continuous and obscured by the funnel).

So.... what was the weather like? Was there a strong low pressure system
in the vicinity? This time of year I would find tornadoes very unlikely
in England.
--
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john [e-mail] anasaz![e-mail]
 - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - -
 - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john
From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Info about Prescott area, Az.
Message-ID: <1991Nov14.010310.26145@anasaz>
Date: 14 Nov 91 01:03:10 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA
Lines: 19

Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Russell E. Cox III) writes:
]I was a student at Embry Riddle Aeronautical Univ located in Prescott, Az
]three years ago.  We had a lecture about alien activity out side the town
]in the desert.  NASA spoke and stated that nothing was goining on.  But
]then this old man spoke, he lives in the desert and stated he sees UFO's
]all the time and if anyone wanted to come out they could see them to.  He
]also stated that aliens had put something in his lower calf. We all thought
]the old man was "way out their" but after a few years of thinking I often
]wonder if this man is telling the truth?
I have heard rumours of UFO sitings along I-17 near of Cordes Junction,
which is not far from Prescott. There are numberous cattle mutilations
in Arizona.
--
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john [e-mail] anasaz![e-mail]
 - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - -
 - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.culture.electric-midget
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 10:28:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3036 alt.culture.electric-midget:206

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bill Marcum) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>
>>/*/* Begin Emergency Transmission.
>>
>>WE HAVE BEEN EXPOSED!  GO IMMEDIATELY YOUR REGIONAL SECTOR HEADQUARTERS
>> ...
>>YOUR MISSION.
>>
>>/*/* End transmission.
>
>
> My god, they've learned to spell!  If they ever learn proper use of the shift
> and caps-lock keys, they'll be ready to take over the net!
>

Yes, but they've put the whole message inside comment delimiters. They'll get a
few nasty compiler errors, but on the whole, earth lives to fight another day.


ian
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!atmnjl
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: YOU'RE ALL CHILDISH...GROW UP!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 16:08:32 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 2

I am a scientist and I THINK this is all childish escapism from reality
Grow up meatheads!!!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the asteroid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 18:51:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>Astronomers have located a large asteroid. They also reported that it
>>exhibited 'jet' like propulsion, this was written off as gasses in the
>>asteroid escaping and thus producing the observed effect.
>>
>>The asteroid is inside our solar system approaching the sun, if I remember
>>correctly will pass through the Earth's orbit.
>
>Once again, this raises more questions than it answers for me.
>Can anyone provide additional references to this story?

I can't cite sources, but I know that there's a theory that some asteroids
are dead comets and at least one has been seen to briefly re-activate.

I also remember that an earth-crossing asteroid was discovered a few years
ago and it's supposed to arrive in 1992.

Does anyone know *exactly* where the story about it being under intelligent
propulsion came from?  I've heard it lots of places, but none of them even
begin to give any details -- they just say that the government is keeping
that aspect a secret.  Come on, people -- name names!

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 18:59:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>Hello!  I have gotten access to this system now, and am wondering WHY my
>other system I am on is NOT receiving some of the messages this one is??

Usenet (the network that transports alt.alien.visitors around) is far from
a perfect network.  For one thing, it's a virtual network running on top of
many others -- the many branches of the UUCP network, BITNET, and the
Internet that evolved from the old ARPAnet.  Sometimes articles will take a
while to get from coast to coast, or from country to country, and it's easy
for articles to arrive at one site in a different order than they do at
another due to differing degrees of connectivity.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  the asteroid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 19:14:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>When??  I don't know anything about passengers, but an asteroid in an orbit
>that results in its return only after a long long time has been blamed for
>a lot of trouble here on earth, including the demise of the dinosaur.    I would

You're confusing two theories!

If an asteroid hit the earth, killing the dinosaurs, that's the end of that
asteroid.  The theoretical object in the elongated orbit is a star, which
theoretically causes comets to smash into the inner solar system when it
comes too close to the comet cloud.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Belgian sightings on 'Unsolved Mysteries'
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 04:49:53 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 8

The UFO sightings in Belgium will be covered on next week's episode of
"Unsolved Mysteries", which airs Wednesday at 8 PM EST.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!nstar!caen!ldoering
From: [e-mail] (Laurence Doering)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 07:31:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3042 alt.paranormal:3653

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
>.
>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????

Yes.  I had a Top Secret clearance with SAPs at my old job, and believe me,
that's all those ROMOs at my old company ever talked about.  I can't tell
you what they said, though, since it's all classified at a level ABOVE
TOP SECRET.  Ooops, I think I might have said too much alread029t20-ua
a240t6 6919
NO CARRIER
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!stc!fsb
From: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tornado
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 13:26:04 GMT
References: <1991Nov13.235622.24659@anasaz>
Sender: [e-mail] (System Administration)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB
Lines: 34

In article <1991Nov13.235622.24659@anasaz> john@anasaz (John Moore) writes:
>Keywords:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown) writes:
>]On radio1 in England this morning, a news item stated
>]that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado.
>]It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter,
>]but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there
>]was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before
>]the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe.
>
>It is not unusual for there to be continuous lightning associated with
>a tornado, which can look like a brilliant blue light (it doesn't look
>like ordinary lighting because it is continuous and obscured by the funnel).
>
>So.... what was the weather like? Was there a strong low pressure system
>in the vicinity? This time of year I would find tornadoes very unlikely
>in England.

The weather man has today said that there were several more tornado's
all over the UK (night of 13/14 nov)and then proceeded to indicate on his map.

We are getting really freak weather at the moment -
could this be due to the big cigars!!!?
A UK reader has mailed me and said that an eye witness interviewed on
the radio after I had been listening said that a tree was uprooted and
thrown onto power lines, hence the blue flash (I suppose)


--
"On the plains of hesitation lie the bones of countless millions, of those
who stopped to view their success, and while resting - died!"
<[e-mail]>  ||  !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!linus!linus!tympani!gpivar
From: [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 12:46:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3044 alt.paranormal:3654
Nntp-Posting-Host: tympani.mitre.org


|> [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
|>
|> > ...
|> >     HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
|> > SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
|>
|


Hey Kibo! ...look up in the sky, its a bird, it a plane, its..., its...
your imagination! Boo!
--
Greg

--  Be still, be silent...the rest is easy.  --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cwatters
From: [e-mail] (Coyt D Watters)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: YOU'RE ALL CHILDISH...GROW UP!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 15:16:39 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>I am a scientist and I THINK this is all childish escapism from reality

Reality is for those who can not face fantasy.

>Grow up meatheads!!!

By literal definition, we all have!

--
..and the silicon heart warmed to the sight/ of a billion candles burning/
now I'm not saying that the battle is won/but on Saturday night all the kids
in the sun/ embrace the technology sown from the hands of the warlords...
"The Tide Is Turning" - Roger Waters - _The Wall Live in Berlin 1990_
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 13:42:23 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3046 alt.paranormal:3655


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (RichHalbs) writes...
>[e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
>
>> ...
>>     HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>
>I heard.  And I, quite frankly, am scared.
>
>RICHH


        Don't be.  There  are no asteroids heading for Earth.  You have a
        better chance of being attacked  by  a  shark  in  the  middle of
        Kansas than being killed by an asteroid hitting Earth.  (and I do
        not be SHARK as in Lawyer 8^))

        Steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!nstn.ns.ca!ac.dal.ca!bcrenna
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Non-Newtonian Behaviour and UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 15:21:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Csn0441) writes:
>    ( ... lots of stuff deleted about UFOs not following Newton's
>      laws of motion ... )
>
> Besides there being much progress in physics since Newton, (and no end to
> such progress in sight)  I don't think the implication here is UFOs are
> being designed by college science students.   No, the implication here is
> that someone with a little more knowledge than Newton is building them.
> (Sorry about a bit of sarcasm, but the most important thing I learned from
>   college physics was that we don't know it all, and that we don't know
>   how far we are from knowing it all ).

Hey, that's precisely the point I was trying to raise.  Someone in a previous
post suggested that UFOs aren't necessarily violating "classical mechanics"
during sudden aerobatic motions; I had intended to show as simply as possible
that the consequences of this assumption are quite unpleasant for the craft
and its occupants.  Either the UFO and its passengers are composed of truly
incredible materials, or the spacecraft is somehow able to avoid the need for
that by employing some as-yet-unknown principles.  Like you, I tend to think
that our understanding of nature might be rather primitive, and it's simpler
for me to accept the latter idea, rather than trying to imagine living
creatures able to take that kind of stress.
       Strictly speaking, if we're not too invested in turning UFOs into
hard-shelled spacecraft, their behaviour might not be outside the realm of
current physics; the simplest example I can think of is the apparent motion of
a searchlight beam on a layer of clouds.  I'm not claiming that UFOs AREN'T
hard-shelled spacecraft, only that other explanations are possible.  Anyhow.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!jsinclai
From: [e-mail] (Buddy Holly)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Non-Newtonian Behaviour and UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 15:44:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 21

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Brent) writes:
>>
>> (Somebody else suggests that):
>>
>>> [... UFOs do things...] such as make right angle
>>> turns that would seem to violate Newton's Second Law,
>>

It follows the method of steepest descent!  (Don't aliens know about BFGS?) ;-)

> reply deleted...
>      I apologise if what I've said is too trivial for words, or if I've made
>any mistakes; sometimes both the obvious and sarcasm in others eludes me....


no prob.
--
       |\^/|                  //   [e-mail]
   ._|\|   |/|_.             //
    \  Canada /             //
    <____ ____>            //
Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!macklowj
From: [e-mail] (Jim J. Macklow)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: I was Abducted by Space Aliens (I think)
Keywords: Fingernails, Alien Aphrodisiacs, Abductions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 17:01:39 GMT
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Lines: 36


Back in 1986, I believe I was attacked and mutilated by aliens.  I
don't remember any of it, but here's why I think it happened...

At the time I always bit my fingernails.  So one day I
decided to quit, and I did!  My nails grew long and I had to cut them
with nail cutters a few times.

Then one morning when I woke up my nails were all SHORT!  Cut to the quick,
so to speak.  First I thought I had bitten them in my sleep, but the edges
were perfectly smooth and curved, and didn't appear as if they'd been cut
recently at all.

I asked my room-mates if they had perpetrated the deed, but they all denied
having done so.  I can't imagine anyone could cut my 10 fingernails off and
not wake me up since I am a light sleeper.  Moreover, my bedroom was in the
center of the ground floor of a three-floor house, and my room has no windows,
and the door was closed! Can aliens snatch bodies through walls?

My final conclusion is that Space Aliens kidnapped me and took my well-cared-
for nails for some reason.

Has anything like this happened to anyone else on the net?

(Although the above story is true, I often (jokingly) tell people the
reason why the aliens took my nails is that human fingernails, hair and
skin are alien aphrodisiacs.  Why?  Well many human aphrodisiacs are taken
from exotic  animals (bear paws, reindeer antlers, snake venom, etc), and
none of them have any physico-chemical basis for their powers.

What could be more exotic and hard to procure (and useless) than some bits
of humans, who only live across the galaxy on a single planet, orbiting
a rather ordinary (hard to find)  sun?  I bet the greys are just a bunch of
"snake-oil" salesmen gathering their wares.)

-Jim "often called Mike, but that's another story" Macklow
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ouzo
From: [e-mail] (Peter Petropoulos)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 17:02:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Academic Computing and Network Services, Evanston, Il.
Lines: 4


After all THEY LIVE  !!!!

Delphi Oracle at Large.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 18:33:36 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3051 alt.paranormal:3656


>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
>>.
>>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>

Well, a friend of mine says it isn't supposed to destroy the Earth at all.
It's supposed to orbit the Earth.  It's an orbiting Master Space Station
and it's purpose is to facilitate first contact with us and initiate trade
agreements.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 19:33:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>Greg,
>     I don't KNOW for certain, but I have some assumptions about it!!
>
>     Gary

Gary,

Your story has been made known on the various UFO organizations for at
least 2 years now. In addition I just placed your most recent posting
from this newsgroup on the FIDO_UFO echo and the CONTACT echo on the BBS
side. Please continue your postings here. There are many people who are
very skeptical as to the nature of *why* the cloning of individuals and
as to the purpose thereof. I know this is a lot to ask, but please delve
into your case in detail if you can. The more that is known from you
and about you will lend stronger credence for you. We know that there is
a Secret Govt at work and have glimpsed but _some_ of their nefarious
methods of control as evidenced by the Danny Casolaro murder,BCCI and
what Bo Gritz has attempted to tell us via Lars Hansson.

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ovotron Bimonthly Newsletter: Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 20:11:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 80

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Don Allen writes that perhaps the Dracos could be compared
>todevils/demons and 'things that go bump in the night', etc.
>
>Don:  Thanks for the post.  I understand about that stuff
>(such as the devils/demons that attempted to distrub/divert
>various saints from their path, and the story of the Buddha
>and the demons he confronted).  But to say that Dracos want
>to 'eat' up people?  The confrontation one meets as he steps
>upon the thresshold into higher consciousness (perhaps, i.e.,
>the gates into Paradise) are wrought, perhaps with forces, etc.
>that would try to deny him entrance until he/she prove himself
>worthy and intent pure, etc.
>
>But I am still having difficulty with the idea that they wish
>to PHYSICALLY eat us.  Now someone on this net recently inferred
>that I was rather ignorant, and had I been a serious meditator,
>I would KNOW what all this means.  And this person never posted
>back my question to him as to WHAT it means if I 'have it wrong'?
>

Kathy,

I don't know very much about the Draco Reptilian race other than the
already very negetive aspects that have been brought out in the existing
UFO lore. There's been some comparison between the "V" series and the
Draco scenario. While I don't know if this is necessarily true, or
is coincidental, I find it odd, that films/series like "V" , "Alien Seed"
and many others have almost identical themes of MJ-12/Secret Govt plots
to take over the world/Fall of the US Constituition/Mark of the Beast,etc..

I like many others can only speculate...I suspect that when we finally *do*
get the real Truth...it will be a shocker..A glimpse of this was portrayed
in Don Showen's postings of the Barbara Marciniak channellings with the
Pleiadians (these are NOT the same Pleiadians that Billy Meier had Contact
with such as Asket and Semjase)....in the Marciniak channellings are
details of the greys and the Draco races. I have seen drawings of what
are purported to be the Draco beings..they are quite tall and very much
Lizard looking. To my knowledge, there has not been anyone who has any
actually photographed a Draco. The UFO field covers a w i d e gamut from
the stuff that is considered "nuts and bolts" to the very wild and
impossible sounding.

You asked about "Ovotron"...it's my understanding that the name was
derived from META-TRON...Kortron who writes the newsletters is a TRON
commander. (I don't write this stuff folks..I just post what I find)..

Kortron (who name is Walter Batoo) is for REAL...I have talked to him
many times, been on his BBS, followed the progress of the pyramid
construction and he will have already activated the pyramid come
November 11...this is but part of the 11:11 scenario.

The TRON part comes from what Walter likes to call the "3M company"..
which is a triad of Metatron,Michael and Melchizadek.

There is a book I could recommend called "The Keys of Enoch" which
was written back in the late 70's by J.J. Hurtak..this book will explain
in part what Walter is about and why..

Kortron is also tied in with Kadar Monka, Hatonn and the Ashtar Command.

You mentioned Ann Ree Colton...I'm familar with her work and have one
of her books called "Watch Your Dreams".

For more information on Kortron, try writing him a letter and ask him
to send you some of his newsletters and he will be happy to answer
any questions you put to him.

Bear in mind that there are many diverse elements that make up the
Family of Light and we all have much work ahead of us.

Adonai,

Don

--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!nynexst.com!mirage!pjc
From: [e-mail] (Peter Colonel)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: I was Abducted by Space Aliens (I think)
Keywords: Fingernails, Alien Aphrodisiacs, Abductions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 20:13:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (For News purposes)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Peter Colonel)
Organization: Nynex Science & Technology
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim J. Macklow) writes:
|>
|> Back in 1986, I believe I was attacked and mutilated by aliens.  I
|> don't remember any of it, but here's why I think it happened...

clip, clip, clip...


|> My final conclusion is that Space Aliens kidnapped me and took my well-cared-
|> for nails for some reason.
|>

clip, clip, clip...

|>
|> -Jim "often called Mike, but that's another story" Macklow

One time, some aliens came and went to the bathroom for me. I knew this because
when I got up from sleeping, I did not have to go.. 8^}
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!apollo!apollo.hp.com!heff
From: [e-mail] (Jeffery Oesterle)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 20:03:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET posting account)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 27
Nntp-Posting-Host: soul_biter.ch.apollo.hp.com


>
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes...
> >..
> >    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
> >SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
> >
> >
> >                    --
> >--
>
>         ARRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!  People  get  a  life!!!!!!   Wake up and
>         smell the coffee!!!!!!!!!!
>
>         There is no astoroid  (known)  heading  for  Earth!  There are NO
>         astoroids being detected ENTERING the solar system.  There are NO


The original claim may be unfounded, but there are indeed asteroids in our
solar system capable of hitting the earth.  The latest issue of Scientific
American has a nice article about the asteroid belt.  It mentions an asteroid
that came fairly close to the earth in the last 20 years or so.

I doubt it's worth sweating about, though.


jeff.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!spdcc!dirtydog.ima.isc.com!ispd-newsserver!laidbak!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re^2: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Keywords: Whiff-reading
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 18:55:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Distribution: na
Organization: Death by RuRu
Lines: 11
Originator: jcj@tellab3
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3

>Channelling is a poor alternative to "Whiff-reading."  Concentrate on
>attaining the status of Overman first, finding the Xists second.  Time
>is running out... .

I knew it!  I've frequently observed my dog engaged in what must be
"Whiff-reading" the front yard after Baron From Down The Street has
passed by.  She must be close to attaining Overdog status.  Hail Bob!
--
              [e-mail]
    "Hey, Mr. Peterson, there's a cold one waiting for you."
          "I know, and if she calls, I'm not here."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!elt103
From: [e-mail] (Eric L. Tissue)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: AIDS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 20:25:50 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 5

Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus..  Maybe you should
twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom users
have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly.
Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting
yourself into.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!mucs!mccuts!zzassgl
From: [e-mail] (Geoff Lane)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 14:45:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>"2 luminous disk like eyes appeared above the rim. A huge rounded bulk larger than a bear
>    rose up slowly, glistening like wet leather.  It's lipless mouth quivered and slathered
>         and snake like tentacles writhed as the clumsy body heaved and pulsated."

Careful now, the last time this was broadcast there was widespread panic :-)




--
Geoff. Lane.                                  Janet: [e-mail]
UTS Sys Admin, Manchester Computing Centre, Oxford Rd, Manchester, M13 9PL
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!gozer!bob
From: [e-mail] (J.R. "BoB" Dobbs)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 15:08:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (J.R. "BoB" Dobbs)
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,misc.test,misc.jobs.offered
Organization: McIndustries - Toxic Newsfeeds Division
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3059 talk.religion.newage:7696 alt.slack:1719

[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

> [otherwise interesing UFO fantasies deleted]
>...
>... blah blah
>

> UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?

No, pink boy.  We are getting ourselves ready for July 5th, 1998.

The Xists are the only alien race that we need concern ourselves with.

On that day I'm going to be in the VIP lounge of the flagship saucer
with my brethren SubGenii and watch with glee as the Xists pick their
teeth with your pink irradiated bones.

If you want to acheive eternal salvation send me $30.

And stop cross-posting this UFO crap to alt.slack.  If we want to read
it, we'll read it in a.a.v.

Or KILL ME!

--
"BoB" - Send 30 dollars for our FREE pamphlet.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj
From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 01:11:27 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Lines: 12
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3060 alt.paranormal:3661

[e-mail] says:

> [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????

> Well, a friend of mine says it isn't supposed to destroy the Earth at all.
> It's supposed to orbit the Earth.  It's an orbiting Master Space Station
> and it's purpose is to facilitate first contact with us and initiate trade
> agreements.

Do you mean that it was built by the Japanese?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!eng.ufl.edu!math.ufl.edu!uflorida!unraveller
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gary Stollman
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 15:41:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University Domain (edu)
Lines: 65
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes...
>How do you know you are a clone?

No no.. Gary's not a clone, like us.. Gary's a normal regular person.. He's
never had to go through the Atavacron before, like we had to.

>And what does your father have to say about all this?  Are both
>of your parents still alive?
"Gary, can you hear me?  Open up that door.
I been callin you for hours, won't say it anymore.
Just wait until your Dad gets home and sees what you have done
You're out of school you got no job you're a useless delinquent bum!
Oh my God, it's a-Gary hanging by his neck!
All those metal-albums (and evil Xists) have lead him to his death!"

From: [e-mail]
>you thought people from Cali. were following
>you.  Why?  Because you happen to be from CA, and saw a car
>with CA plates at a few spots in Virginia.
Hey, man, I did the best job I could, ya know?  The guy just caught on to me.
He hasn't noticed me in the past six months so that's a good sign, ain't it?
I'll never drive that stationwagon again.

>From the evidence YOU give, it sounds like their reaction is
>"This guy is a nut!" not "It's Gary Stollman, focus of our
>Evil Master Plan!"
Shhh! Don't let on! He might suspect.

>WHY would "They" go after
>you?
Because GARY KNOWS TOO MUCH.

>I used to make up
>stories and adventures in which I'd place myself.
>But the point is, I never totally BELIEVED these
>stories, and some years ago I quite definitely made a break
>with them--I separated my identity from my created character.
Oh, I feel so sorry for you.  Whenever anyone feels they have to do that it's
always a great tradgedy (ics).

that's a damn shame.. You coulda made such a great human being, too..  Or,
perhaps I should re-iterate, you coulda made such a great SUB-genius.. BUT,
you sold your slack for a little piece of mind.  Ain't that just terrible?

>        It seems that my story resembles very closely that of many
>people on this group, who believe that they are at the center
>of an evil conspiracy, are actually powerful alien beings
>exiled or in disguise here on Earth, etc.
The X-ists will sort your brains out from among the ashes of the fallen
planet and I will use you as my Galactic Whoopie-Cushion!

>If THEY are out to get you,
>why have they allowed you to post on this group freely?
He's too SMART for us!  We NEVER know where he's gonna show up until it's too
late!  You have it on my authority, however, that Mr. Stallman will not be
allowed to continue with his present course of activities.  Yes-Sir-ee-BoB!
Looks like John Lear's gonna hafta take a long, long walk.. Yup, he's tiger-
fodder if you ask me..

But Why, oh Why, all such consternation about a short black man?  I mean,
I, too, almost liked 'Different Strokes' when it was on the air, and now
that it only plays in syndication I can rest and enjoy the silence.  The
fact that Gary Stallman played such a major role for such a young boy surely
must have developed a trauma on him that none could cope with, but... Oh
wait a minute, it's STOLLMAN not Stallman.. Oh, My Mistake.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!cebarton
From: [e-mail] (Casey Barton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: AIDS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 04:00:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric L. Tissue) writes:
>Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus..
>M>twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom users
>have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly.
>Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting
>yourself into.


     Damn right. God only knows what those alien visitors might be carrying.

  Hmmm... Anyone here ever head a song (I heard it on a Dr. Demento radio show)
called "Intergalactic Prophylactic?" Great tune.
--
      Casey Barton (Mr.)   [e-mail]   [phone]
    "Space," it says, "is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly
hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the
road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. Listen..." - The Guide.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!jwt!john
From: [e-mail] (John Temples)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 04:34:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Museum of Barnyard Oddities
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>Hello!  I have gotten access to this system now, and am wondering WHY my
>other system I am on is NOT receiving some of the messages this one is??

Gee, did you ever think of ASKING the ADMINISTRATOR of the OTHER system
(namely, me) WHY you are NOT receiving some of the messages?  No,
better to POST PUBLICLY to help foster your own story of PARANOIA!  Did
it ever occur to you that Usenet articles arrive in randomly different
sequences at different systems, especially when those systems are 1,500
miles apart?

Incidentally, 15 articles have been received here on this thread as of
11-14-91.  Trn's thread database shows no sign of any missing articles.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
--
John W. Temples -- [e-mail] (uunet!jwt!john)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!hri.com!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.culture.electric-midget
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 00:49:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3064 alt.culture.electric-midget:208

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bill Marcum) says:
>
>My god, they've learned to spell!  If they ever learn proper use of the shift
>and caps-lock keys, they'll be ready to take over the net!
>
>Bill Marcum    "That's right, I lead a dangerous life!"

What the hell did you want.  After all, it WAS an EMERGENCY MESSAGE !
:-)

And who says we haven't ALREADY taken over the net ?  Hmmmmmm...... ?
>:-)


Send all replies to  [e-mail]

Thank You.

- Cloning the world for a better tomorrow -
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!gara!chore
From: [e-mail] (Prince Of Darkness)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: AIDS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 04:43:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New England, Armidale, Australia
Lines: 33

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (LIGHTCHILD):
> From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Eric L. Tissue):
>
[AIDS]

> What is this doing in this newsgroup?
>
> AH! I know! It's the coded sequence we've all been waiting for!
>
> Okay everybody.."The white dove flies by night".
>

Yes, of course.......

"There is no good roast beef in London"

Initiate world conquest plan on my command.....

Stand By!






<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
^   - The Prince Of Darkness            || > Chris Hore                     ^
^                                       ||   Austin College                 ^
^    "If there's a new way,             ||   UNE, Armidale, NSW             ^
^     I'll be the first in line,        ||   Australia, 2351.               ^
^     But it better work this time."    ||                                  ^
^                                       ||   E-Mail - [e-mail]  ^
^>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!gara!scavanag
From: [e-mail] (LIGHTCHILD)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: AIDS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 04:40:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New England, Armidale, Australia
Lines: 18

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Eric L. Tissue):
> Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus..  Maybe you should
> twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom users
> have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly.
> Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting
> yourself into.

What is this doing in this newsgroup?

AH! I know! It's the coded sequence we've all been waiting for!

Okay everybody.."The white dove flies by night".

******************************************************************************
*  STEVEN CAVANAGH            |  AAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!     *
*    (LIGHTCHILD)             |                                              *
* [e-mail]     |                          -BRUCE LEE          *
******************************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbnewse!harryo
From: [e-mail] (harold.r.holm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: YOU'RE ALL CHILDISH...GROW UP!!
Summary: This is...a scientist??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 06:40:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> I am a scientist and I THINK this is all childish escapism from reality
> Grow up meatheads!!!


Fine "analysis" from a self-described "scientist", isn't it?????

H.R. Holm
*standard disclaimers,
 comment my own only*
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 06:57:37 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 8
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17639 alt.alien.visitors:3068


I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in
office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody
provide any references?

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ [e-mail] \  /  \  /  \  /
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!cmuvm!34aej7d
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 17:59:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3069 alt.paranormal:3666

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
says:
>
>.
>        HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>
You have the date wrong.
                                         --
The year was 1991, NOT 1992!

All the Politically Correct people were saved in the Rapture.

We are the ones left behind.

Welcome to Hell!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!zazen!doug.cae.wisc.edu!msi.umn.edu!gacvx2.gac.edu!gacvx2.gac.edu!news
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The purpose of our Earth, and our relation with the Pleiadians, et al.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 21:47:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: 138.236.10.75

In article <[e-mail]>  writes:
  [Speculation on life, the universe, and the origin of dish soap omitted]
>      "Now this sounds very much like the story told to Eduard Meier by
> the Pleiadian cosmonauts, and I have verified that Meier knows nothing
> of the think tank research, and they know nothing of him, or at least
> they did not at the time I was in contact with them."
>

Really?!??  And to think that people might dismiss this as coincidence!
I'm sure you're on to something here.  I mean, two people comming up
with the same ideas on the meaning of life... it *must* be true.

Not.


Ben Youngdahl
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!news!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 02:29:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3071 alt.paranormal:3668

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] says:
>
>Well, a friend of mine says it isn't supposed to destroy the Earth at all.
>It's supposed to orbit the Earth.  It's an orbiting Master Space Station
>and it's purpose is to facilitate first contact with us and initiate trade
>agreements.
>
>---
>Mary Stanley


What kind of trade agreements.  What could we have that they would want
or need.  Or are they considering franchising McDonalds into space?

I'll have a Moon-Mac, a large order of laser-fries, and a Venusian shake
to go.  And make it quick...I was supposed to be in the Orion sector a
half an hour ago.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: 11: 11
Keywords: 11: 11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 07:02:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 44
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3072 alt.paranormal:3669

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Laurence Doering) writes:
>>    needed now!
>
>Reject this cynical call to submit to the capitalist schemes of the forces
>of Reticulan imperialism!  Now is the time to strike a decisive blow for
>interstellar proletarian solidarity, Earth brothers!
>
>>    than anything existing within the world of matter.
>>
>>    You are Called forth to make this leap into the Unknown, into the
>>    New, for all else has reached the point of completion
>
>People of Earth, the decisive moment is at hand!  Will you surrender to the
>empty promises of the Reticulan bourgeoisie and their fraudulent "Call to
>Activation", or will you continue to stride down the true path of interstellar
>proletarian revolution?
>
>Throw off the chains of capitalist bondage!  The Shining Path of Continuing
>Revolution will inevitably lead the working peoples of the Earth to the
>true socialist workers' paradise!  Crush the fascist insects of the
>cynical Reticulan ruling clique and their cosmopolite mouthpieces, the evil
>Gang of Four!  Follow the revolutionary teachings of the Dear Leader,
>Chairman G'Haanin!  Continue the struggle against the counterrevolutionary
>ravings of the so-called Arc of Light, and the people of Earth will march
>to proletarian victory over the forces of interstellar imperialism!
>
>Yours in revolutionary solidarity,
>Zontar, Peoples' Commissar, Interstellar Proletarian Peoples' Collective

Heheh...That was simply wonderful..a masterpiece..I loved it!

I'm going to re-post this in the CONTACT echo on the BBS side of the UFO
echoes..

Solara might "frown" upon it but it's great humour. Keep it up Zontar :-)

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 11: 11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 07:06:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>>
>>    Is that GMT, EST or what?
>>
>>Jason
>>[e-mail]
>
>The New Moon is at 11:11pm GMT Greenwich Mean time. The astrology
>chart for Greenwich, Eng at this time is below: (Note that the
>Sun/Moon conjunction includes Uranus only 4 minutes away.)
>
>+-------<11>07Leo16----<10>01Can26-----<9>25Tau27-----------+
>|              |              |              |              |
>|              |              |              |              |
>
(etc)..

I finally got around to playing with that new Astrolog file and was
amazed at what you were able to put into it. Good job!

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!unido!olymp!seebauer
From: [e-mail] (Heinrich Seebauer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 10:02:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Institut fuer Informatik Uni Bonn (BARDE Projekt)
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3074 alt.paranormal:3670
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 13 Nov 91 12:37:56 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik) writes:

>   In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
>   |> ..
>   |>     HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>   |> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>   |>
>   |>
>
>
>   July 13th? July13th? Damn it! I was looking forward to my next birthday,
>   and now you tell me the worlds going to snuff it a week before I get it.
>
Got the same promblem. My birthday is July 15th.
Anyone closer than me? :-)

H.
--
     /---S---\        Heinrich Seebauer
BARDE---Y-----BARDE    Institut fuer Informatik Abteilung fuer Informatik IV
     \---N---/        Roemerstr. 164, W-5300 Bonn 1, x228 / 550 223
      \---C-/        dataflow - the better way
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!cooper
From: [e-mail] (ralph.moonen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: AIDS
Summary: Hahaha....
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 11:56:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric L. Tissue) writes:
> Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus..  Maybe you should
> twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom users
> have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly.
> Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting
> yourself into.

So? What's your point? Where do the aliens come into this? Oh, I get it,
when having sex with aliens you can aquire various diseases even with use of
a condom. Ah well, guess your subject line should have read: "Avoid alien sex"

Oh and by the way, if your post was seriously, you are making a non-statement.
You say that though they used condoms *regularly* they acquired some sort
of disease. This sentence should of course read: "Because they didn't
always use condoms, they got some sort of disease." Right?

--Ralph Moonen
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!gisle
From: [e-mail] (Gisle Hannemyr)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 14:35:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Gisle Hannemyr)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: kyrre.ifi.uio.no
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 15 Nov 91 06: 57:37 GMT
Originator: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
> I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in
> office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody
> provide any references?

Sorry, no reference, just my recollection of the event.

While in office, Jimmy Carter stated that he had seen an UFO (I believe
the event had happened before he become president).  It was nothing
spectacular, just a strange, strong light just above the horizon.

The report was followed up a few days later with a evaluation by some
astronomy types that the President proably had mistaken Venus for an
UFO.
--
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my
            employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.

- gisle hannemyr  (Norwegian Computing Center)
  EAN:   C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=nr;S=Hannemyr;G=Gisle (X.400 SA format)
         [e-mail]                      (RFC-822  format)
  Inet:  [e-mail]
  UUCP:  ...!mcsun!ifi!gisle
------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 14:49:26 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 16


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeffery Oesterle) writes...
>The original claim may be unfounded, but there are indeed asteroids in our
>solar system capable of hitting the earth.  The latest issue of Scientific
>American has a nice article about the asteroid belt.  It mentions an asteroid
>that came fairly close to the earth in the last 20 years or so.


        Actually there  have  been  2  or 3 near misses (within 1,000,000
        miles of Earth)  in  the  last  2  years.  This is not unusaul it
        probably happens more often  than  this  we  just  didn't  see it
        happen.

        Steve lunch_for_the_grays

        "Beware the Jub Jub Bird"
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: YOU'RE ALL CHILDISH...GROW UP!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 14:57:52 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 11


>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> I am a scientist and I THINK this is all childish escapism from reality
> Grow up meatheads!!!

        A scientist huh?!?!?!  What kind of "Scientist?"  Your statement
        above is  not  very  scientific  or  for that matter intelligent.
        Granted this file  is filled with some seriously paranoid ravings
        but to discount everything is not very "scientific" of you.

        Steve "I'm a software  engineer who is going to be lunch for some grays"
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 15:03:40 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3079 alt.paranormal:3671


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
*)In article <[e-mail], [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
*)says:
*)*)
*)*).
*)*)        HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
*)*)SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
*)*)
*)You have the date wrong.
*)                                         --
*)The year was 1991, NOT 1992!
*)
*)All the Politically Correct people were saved in the Rapture.
*)
*)We are the ones left behind.
*)
*)Welcome to Hell!


        Was that the rapture of Septmeber 1988 or October 1989.  I missed
        the bus on both.

        Steve 8^)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!vicorp!mc
From: [e-mail] (Mark Charalambous)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gary Stollman
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 15:15:47 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark Charalambous)
Organization: V. I. Corporation, Amherst, Massachusetts
Lines: 29

In alt.alien.visitors Max wrote:


>       The continuing narratives of Mr. Stollman are certainly
>some of the most interesting stuff I've read in a long time
>(though maybe if I'd been reading this group for a while, I'd
>be coming across this sort of thing regularly).  I have a few
>points to make and questions to ask, which I'm sure he has
>heard from other people.
>
     ....long introspective narrative.....
>--Max

Max

Thank you for your sincere and heartfelt posting. It is the most
wothwhile posting I've seen on this group for sometime now.

I share your concern for Gary Stollman, hopefully he will read
your message and find meaning in it.

Thanks again
---Mark

--
####################    All relevant disclaimers apply    #####################
          Mark Charalambous              [e-mail]
           VI Corporation             uunet!vicorp!mc
       [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: uscsus
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 02:36:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 60

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Richard N Iachetta) says:
>
>Hi Earthlings,
>
>To my knowledge, I am the only product of an inter-galactic mixed marriage.
>To be specific, my mother is a human (the Earth variety) and my father is
>from a planet orbiting a star which is yet undiscovered to earthlings.
>It is not visible from here due do a dense amount of dark matter and
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>intergalactic dust revolving around one of the universes largest black
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>holes.  ....... [stuff deleted]
^^^^^^^^


Where's the hell did I put that Dustbuster?!


>
... [stuff deleted] ...
>First of all, the 'death beam' is real.  My father had a few of them until
>the government killed him and destroyed all the death beams except one;
>he gave me one for my 13th birthday which I have kept hidden.  It does work,
>but being half human, my accuracy is not keen.  For example, I may think
>of an object but hit something near by, or I may be angry at an
>individual but have no intension of killing him, but the death beam
>may do it anyway.  I don't think it is a faulty death beam; the problem
>is that I am only half alien.
>

Or maybe the problem is that you're only half-sane?  What does this
death beam look like?  Could I get some kind of demonstration, or am I
supposed to just wait until you try using it on me.  And why did this
so-called 'secret government' destroy them.  I would think they would
have had the intelligence to at least examine one of them to try to
duplicate it.


...[more stuff deleted]...
>Channelers, Please Keep It Down!  I can't get any peace anymore with all
>of you making so much racket.  Thanks to you I spent 4 years in a mental
>institution.  I tried to tell them that the voices I was hearing were
>humans channeling to me and I could hear them because I was an part alien,
>but, they just wouldn't believe me.  Damn skeptics....[stuff deleted]


I don't believe it either....at least the part about the voices.  I fully
believe the part about the 4 years in the mental institution, and now I
know why.


>
>Uscsus


If anyone has a good, used death beam they'd like to sell, let me know.
I'll pay cash!  :-)

- Cloning the world for a better tomorrow -
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re^2:  the asteroid
Keywords: "Nemesis"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 14:59:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Death by RuRu
Lines: 19
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:

>You're confusing two theories!
>
>If an asteroid hit the earth, killing the dinosaurs, that's the end of that
>asteroid.  The theoretical object in the elongated orbit is a star, which
>theoretically causes comets to smash into the inner solar system when it
>comes too close to the comet cloud.

The object is colloquially called "Nemesis" and is theorized to be a
substellar dark body (i.e. it didn't have enough mass to start
fusion).  Given that most stars in this part of the galaxy are members
of double or multiple star systems, our sun is thought by some to be
an anomaly.  Nemesis could be the other "star" in our binary system.
This is all theory, mind you.
--
              [e-mail]
    "Hey, Mr. Peterson, there's a cold one waiting for you."
          "I know, and if she calls, I'm not here."
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From: [e-mail] (Stephen Andrew Rahe)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 17:53:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Freshman, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 5
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>


    I also heard that Jimmy Carter reported seeing a UFO... of course, I
also remember that he once said that he was attacked by a "killer"
rabbit... (or something to that effect)
        Stephen Rahe
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From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wht Strieber's books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 02:23:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Abode Computer Services
Lines: 6



I just saw Hopkins on the Jenny Jones show (KNBC- Los Angeles)
and he seems MUCH MORE CREDIBLE than Streiber.

Just my two cents
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!gdc!foster
From: [e-mail] (Sharon Foster)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 15:23:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: General DataComm, Middlebury CT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>>>
>>>Keep in mind that science is the study of the physical Universe, and that
>>>religion is the study of everything else.
>>>
>>no sorry that is ART. Religeon is just the chains around humanities ankles
>>in its struggle to pursue science(the study of the physical universe) and
>>art (the study of everything else).
>
> Oh, please.  I don't blame religion itself for all the scientific setbacks
> that fanatically religious people have caused.  Both science and religion
> are searches for truth.  Science searches for what is true about this physical
> universe.  Religion deals with the truths of worlds OTHER than the physical
> one.


Yes, maybe, but it *also* deals with, but is not limited to,
the truths of living in *this* world.  See .sig below.



> They really shouldn't interfere with each other.


I whole-heartedly agree.


--
Sharon "Just Another Bleeding-Heart Liberal" Foster

/* Sharon Foster....First Generation Trekkie  *      [e-mail]        */
/*        These are my own Biased Personal Opinions (tm).                  */
/* "Jesus asked us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and house the     */
/* homeless; he didn't mention anything about asking them for a financial  */
/* statement."    - me                                                     */
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!sharkey!nstar!caen!ldoering
From: [e-mail] (Laurence Doering)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <9=[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 08:25:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 41
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in
>office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody
>provide any references?

Yes.  This is covered in Cecil Adams' _The Straight Dope_.
On page 48, we find:

Didn't Jimmy Carter once claim he had seen a UFO?  Was he all by himself,
or did other people see it too?  Has there been any subsequent investigation?
Was it a "real" UFO, or did Jimmy get snookered by swamp gas?
    - Rhoda A., Baltimore

Cecil's answer is:

    Two guesses, kiddo.  In a report filed with the Center for UFO Studies
in Evanston, Illinois, Carter claimed to have seen his UFO in October, 1969,
when he was running (unsuccessfully at that point) for governor of Georgia.
Being a shrewd politician even then, he didn't file his report until
September 1973 (hell, look what happened to Eagleton.)  It was around 7:15,
shortly after dark, when Carter and a group of about 10 or 12 people spotted
the alleged UFO over the countryside near Leary, Georgia.  The object stood
still in the sky for a period of 10 or 12 minutes, slowly changing its color,
size, and brightness, and then gradually retreated into the distance,
disappearing from view.  Carter estimated that the object, at its closest, was
some 300 to 1,000 yards away.
    Later research, however, has cast grave doubts on the Big Peanut's
credibility.  Robert Sheaffer, a volunteer researcher for the Committee for
the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, reported in an
issue of _Zetetic_ magazine that what Carter actually saw was not a flying
saucer, but the planet Venus, a notorious trickster in these matters.  Nor
was the fateful eve in October -- apparently, during the four-year gap between
the incident and Carter's report, the President confused his dates.  By
checking the files of the Lions Club chapter that Carter was scheduled to
address that evening, Sheaffer discovered that the actual date was January 6,
1969 -- a night on which the planet would be sitting in precisely the spot
where Carter saw his spaceship.

Reference:  _The Straight Dope_, Cecil Adams, Ballantine Books, 1986.
        ISBN 0-345-33315-2
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From: [e-mail] (Coyt D Watters)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 20:20:09 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Ohio State University
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In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
>says:
>>
>>.
>>        HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>>
>You have the date wrong.
>                                         --
>The year was 1991, NOT 1992!
>
>All the Politically Correct people were saved in the Rapture.

Good Riddance!

--
..and the silicon heart warmed to the sight/ of a billion candles burning/
now I'm not saying that the battle is won/but on Saturday night all the kids
in the sun/ embrace the technology sown from the hands of the warlords...
"The Tide Is Turning" - Roger Waters - _The Wall Live in Berlin 1990_
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ouzo
From: [e-mail] (Peter Petropoulos)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: more on the asteroid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 19:53:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Academic Computing and Network Services, Evanston, Il.
Lines: 9

By the way...have a look into the recent Scientific American issue....
A news item has NASA begging for money for asteroid-hits-earth watch...
I smell consiracy here....maybe after all we snuff out come June 13th '92.

I bet Benford had the same type of jets in mind when he named his Icarus
in "In the Ocean of Night", great book + sequels so read it before our
lights go out.

Delphi Oracle at Large.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!newstop!sun!amdcad!netcomsv!noring
From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 19:52:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <9=[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
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In article <9=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Laurence Doering) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>>
>>I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in
>>office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody
>>provide any references?
>
>Yes.  This is covered in Cecil Adams' _The Straight Dope_.
>On page 48, we find:
>
>Didn't Jimmy Carter once claim he had seen a UFO?  Was he all by himself,
>or did other people see it too?  Has there been any subsequent investigation?
>Was it a "real" UFO, or did Jimmy get snookered by swamp gas?
>    - Rhoda A., Baltimore
>
>Cecil's answer is:
>
>    Two guesses, kiddo.  In a report filed with the Center for UFO Studies
>in Evanston, Illinois, Carter claimed to have seen his UFO in October, 1969,
>when he was running (unsuccessfully at that point) for governor of Georgia.
>Being a shrewd politician even then, he didn't file his report until
>September 1973 (hell, look what happened to Eagleton.)  It was around 7:15,
>shortly after dark, when Carter and a group of about 10 or 12 people spotted
>the alleged UFO over the countryside near Leary, Georgia.  The object stood
>still in the sky for a period of 10 or 12 minutes, slowly changing its color,
>size, and brightness, and then gradually retreated into the distance,
>disappearing from view.  Carter estimated that the object, at its closest, was
>some 300 to 1,000 yards away.
>    Later research, however, has cast grave doubts on the Big Peanut's
>credibility.  Robert Sheaffer, a volunteer researcher for the Committee for
>the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, reported in an
>issue of _Zetetic_ magazine that what Carter actually saw was not a flying
>saucer, but the planet Venus, a notorious trickster in these matters.  Nor
>was the fateful eve in October -- apparently, during the four-year gap between
>the incident and Carter's report, the President confused his dates.  By
>checking the files of the Lions Club chapter that Carter was scheduled to
>address that evening, Sheaffer discovered that the actual date was January 6,
>1969 -- a night on which the planet would be sitting in precisely the spot
>where Carter saw his spaceship.
>
>Reference:  _The Straight Dope_, Cecil Adams, Ballantine Books, 1986.
>        ISBN 0-345-33315-2

I would tend to believe J.C.'s claims that what he saw was unidentifiable
(that is, it was not Venus).  I say this since J.C. was an engineer
(and of course, engineers are infallible :^) ), and thus could be called
a trained observer.  An estimate of distance would only be made by him
if there was reason to believe so.  Venus would only be a point of light,
even under extreme atmospheric conditions, thus any trained observer could
not make distance estimations.  I wonder if J.C. in his report gave
an estimate of the angle subtended by the UFO using the object held at
arm's length technique?  The impact of the observation obviously made an
impact on him.

I, of course, have a skepticism that UFO's are extraterrestrial, but I
will keep an open mind on this issue.  However, I have seen time and
time again how many UFO sitings by trained observers, where they give
subtended angle information indicating that what they saw was definitely
much larger than a point of light, is disregarded as being some planet
by so-called experts.  I can only conclude that Robert Sheaffer had an
hidden motive since his conclusion appears to me to be dishonest (with
the information given to me in the above posting).

Just my $0.03 worth (inflation).

Jon Noring

--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 754 Catalina Drive  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
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From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tornado
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 23:44:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 15
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 13 Nov 91 09:31:52 GMT
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X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado.
> It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter,
> but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there
> was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before
> the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe.

> Has anyone ever heard of blue lights in the sky with destruction
> of property close by?


    Flashes of light are often associated with plain old earthly tornados. I
think it's from friction causing the air to get hot enough that the oxygen
ignites.
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From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 17:07:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 13 Nov 91 17:06:10
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X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> Kathy> I give up.
>
> Probably a wise move.  One cannot argue with a closed mind!
>
> Tom

  That's exactly the advice I would give to Ryk.

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Giles)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 22:29:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <9=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
|> [...]                            I wonder if J.C. in his report gave
|> an estimate of the angle subtended by the UFO using the object held at
|> arm's length technique?  The impact of the observation obviously made an
|> impact on him.

The subtended angle of an object tells you its distance _only_ if
you know how large the object is!  Since the object was reported
as _unidentified_, one must assume that no such a-priori knowledge
existed.  So, the only way to judge distance was parallax.  Since
someone making a speech at the Lions Club rarely has the equipment
available to make an accurate parallax measurement, I suspect his
distance estimate was hot air.

By the way, why do you assume engineers are trained observers?
Most aren't.  Even those that are will only be reliable witnesses
to those things that were connected with their branch of engineering.
I believe Carter would be a quite reliable witness to the pressure
and/or temperature readings on a ship-born nuclear reactor.  He was
never trained as an aircraft spotter though.

J. Giles
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From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz>
Date: 14 Nov 91 21:01:26 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA
Lines: 41

Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Timpson) writes:
]
]In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (RichHalbs) writes...
]>[e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
]>
]>> ...
]>>     HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
]>> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
]>
]>I heard.  And I, quite frankly, am scared.
]>
]>RICHH
]
]
]        Don't be.  There  are no asteroids heading for Earth.  You have a
]        better chance of being attacked  by  a  shark  in  the  middle of
]        Kansas than being killed by an asteroid hitting Earth.  (and I do
]        not be SHARK as in Lawyer 8^))
Not true. The odds of being killed by an asteroid during your lifetime
is about one in 10,000 according to some astronomers who have been
studying asteroid strikes on earth. This assumes that when one does strike,
it kills a whole lot of people. I would point out that this risk is much
larger than your risk of being killed by either a plane crash or lighting,
and as an ex-Kansan, clearly larger than your risk of being killed by
a shark (non-lawyer) in Kansas.

The good news is that 1 in 10000 is pretty small odds when spread over a
lifetime.

The bad news is that it would be unlikely with current setups for there
to be any warning or corrective action in the event that an asteroid
was on a near-term collision with earth.

Perhaps the Pleidians will tell us :-)
--
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john [e-mail] anasaz![e-mail]
 - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - -
 - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -
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From: [e-mail] (Codesmiths)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tornado
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 13:36:41 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (C-News Owner)
Reply-To: Codesmiths <[e-mail]>
Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk
Lines: 40

In-Reply-To:  [e-mail] (Frank Stuart Brown)
> On radio1 in England this morning, a news item stated
> that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado.
> It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter,
> but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there
> was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before
> the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe.

It was a village in Cambridgeshire.

It's not the only sighting of blue flashes that night (early
Wednesday morning). One was seen in Morpeth (North East England) at
around 5:45 am. I personally saw 3 of them in the Newton Aycliffe
area (also NE England). I was driving from Newcastle to Birmingham
down the A1 & saw 3 of them, separated by abut 10 minutes (so about 5
- 10 miles) at around 3:30 - 4am.

They were on the horizon, or beyond & looked like the flash of an
electricity cable being blown down. Similar colour, but too long
duration for lightning. Besides, the sky was clear & starlit, and the
center of the flash appeared to be at ground level. Weather
conditions were clear sky, winds in the 40mph region & heavy showers
later.

I checked with the electricity board - no cable damage reported in
the NE area.

> I'm baffled!
Same here !

Any more reports of these lights ?

Andy Dingley    [e-mail]    [phone]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tornado/'The purpose of our Earth"/(sigh) Stollman, again...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 15:58:57 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: traveler
Organization: University of Florida  (ufl.edu)
Lines: 52
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4


Attention, Walter Pullen, Don Allen, and crew: please read
my post from a dew days ago ("Gary Stollman").  It may help,
though I doubt it.
Gee, Don, why do you think these "Dracos" resemble the old
science-fiction standard reptilian meanies (a la "V")? Could
it be that YOU GUYS ARE EXTREMELY IMPRESSIONABLE!!??  This
whole alien thingy is MODERN MYTHOLOGY, made-up stuff that
caters to the particular anxieties, beliefs, etc. of the
latter half of the 20th c.  Try to realize this!

This is not to say that there aren't genuine mysteries and
weird things out there.  I DO believe that there are more
things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in anyone's
philosophy.  And I do not discount that there have been
sightings of unidentified flying objects (please, let's not
use that as a synonym for "alien spacecraft").
I was reminded of one of those marvelously inexplicable
phenomena by the postings about tornados in Britain.  Of
course I'm talking about the good old crop circles!  There's
actually an excellent book on the subject by a couple of
scientists who have investigated and photographed numerous
sites.  This is NOT a far out fringe type of book--the two
authors take the very proper scientific position that the
circles are absolutely beyond their powers of explanation,
and
and do not attempt to fill in the blanks with crazy theories
about aliens or whatever.
I know there was a recent expose about a couple of middle-
aged pranksters who were making crop circles with some kind
of gadget they carried around to different fields, but
scientists are skeptical that these two could have done all
the circles.  They've appeared in very far-apart areas of
the UK in very short periods (e.g. a single night), and
have even been reported in other countries (though I don't
know of any in the U.S.).  Also, some of the circles were
produced by incomprehensible methods which show no sign of
human activity.
Anyone know any more about this topic?  I'm serious; I don't
want you to tell me about how your friends from the Pleiades
or Venus are doing it.

--Max

--------------------------------------------------------
    The S.I.S. Fellowship--"Disciples of Progress
    Through Rebellion in the Field of Aesthetics."
--------------------------------------------------------
    Max Clarke     The Traveler     At UF
--------------------------------------------------------
    I disclaim all responsibility for this disclaimer.
--------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gary Stollman
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 05:19:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Casey Barton) writes:
>
>     I'm having a hard time trying to decide whether Gary Stollman is simply
>a slightly bent person, or whether his posting is really strong satire.

Let me assure you that Mr. Stollman isn't writing satire.  I remember a
newspaper article about his "appearance" on David Horowitz's show.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 05:37:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>|> About "a month ago", the police in St. Louis, Missouri, found a box
>|> alongside the road "near Highway 100 and Deer Creek Road in West County".
>|> Inside the box was a glass jar full of vinegar, and in the vinegar was the
>|> "blob".  It consists of four parts, of which one is a tentacle.  It has no
>|> bones or hair.
>
>"2 luminous disk like eyes appeared above the rim. A huge rounded bulk larger than a bear
>    rose up slowly, glistening like wet leather.  It's lipless mouth quivered and slathered
>      and snake like tentacles writhed as the clumsy body heaved and pulsated."

That's a bizarre coincidence (and I hope that's all it is!), Bill.  Thanks
for bringing it to my attention.

If anybody in St. Louis has seen any green meteors, it's time to panic!

But seriously, I haven't heard of any cylindrical objects being found in
craters.  Of course, it sounds like this thing was sitting around in
somebody's house for a while until they decided to get rid of it for
unknown reasons.  It would be interesting to know how the police found it
-- were they just taking an interest in roadside litter, or did someone
tell them it was there?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Gary Stollman
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 05:42:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 72

For what it's worth, here's "O. H. Krill"'s version of Gary Stollman's
story.    (All comments are Mr. "Krill"'s (Lear/Valerian?), not mine.)

-----

Well, as if this weren't enough, let's examine the basic
allegations that were raised by Gary Stollman when he held an
empty BB gun to David Horowitz on KNBC Channel 4, Los Angeles, in
October, 1987. Gary clearly though that he was alone in his
knowledge, and evidently turned to desperation to have the public
become aware of what he knew. For the sake of brevity, I will
simply summarize the allegations, and make comments where I wish
to do so:

      o  His physical father is in fact a clone created by
         the CIA and alien forces.
      o  Cloning is a part of a plot to overthrow the U.S
         government.
      o  The CIA maintains mental-retraining hospitals.
      o  Phones were turned off at Rohlman Psychiatric
         Hospital in Cincinnati for 48 hours after his
         arrival.
      o  A former CIA official had an interview on KPFK radio
         in which he told a college audience that the CIA has
         towed barges across New York Harbor that were
         disease-ridden.
      o  The CIA may have created the AIDS virus to wipe out
         the gay population. Comment: Hmmm, where have we
         heard THAT before?
      o  The CIA assassinated John F. Kennedy and the 22
         material witnesses who died with two years. Comment:
         Hmmmm, I have heard that as well.
      o  He demands that the Air Force release all
         information on UFOs.
      o  He demands that the information about Hanger 18 at
         Wright-Patterson [AFB] be released.
      o  He relates that he spoke to a girl at Florida Junior
         College who told him that seven of her friends had
         been "replaced."
      o  The CIA doesn't trust people on computers.
      o  Individuals at the Optimist Boys School in Pasadena
         were recruited by others and given false IDs and
         birth certificates.
      o  There is a secret group led by the President's own
         staff.
      o  There are beings around with the power to teleport
         instantly and do the same to others; who can read
         and control minds, and transform matter into other
         forms and create it at will.
      o  He asks for a congressional investigation and
         federal protection.
      o  He states that he cannot harm anyone with an empty
         BB gun.

****************************************************************

     Well, what do you think? [Name deleted in original, replaced
with the word "MUFON"] contacted Mr. Stollman's lawyer in
December, 1987, and told him that some of what Gary had said may
be true. His lawyer promptly made himself scarce.

****************************************************************

-----

(Can anyone verify this last part?)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Nov 91 05:48:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1991Nov12.202122.14837@anasaz>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 20

In article <1991Nov12.202122.14837@anasaz> billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
>If there's any subject that gets QUIETED down immediately, this is it!  I
>suprised anything got out on ABC - maybe because nobody was watching the
>end of their noon program too closely.

It wasn't ABC's noon program, it was an ABC affiliate's noon program.  I
don't know how many other stations might have chosen to run that particular
report from the network, but from the lack of online discussion about it
I'd have to guess that either not very many did, or nobody with access to a
computer network was watching.

Don Ecker on Paranet has repeatedly said that it's impossible to get anyone
to discuss the subject of human mutilations.  You seem to think the two
subjects are linked.  What is the connection?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: the Blob revisited
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 04:17:10 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 14

Jim Delton on Paranet says that he saw a TV news report in which a woman
claimed that the St. Louis mystery organism was a fungus she had been
growing.  She says she threw it out when it got too big.

Although a fungus would explain the lack of recognizable animal features
(though I don't know about the "tentacle"), I'm puzzled as to why she would
put it in a jar of vinegar, put the jar in a box, and leave it by the side
of the road.  Why not put it in the garbage, or bury it, or something?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!amdcad!netcomsv!noring
From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tornado
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 22:54:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]> KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>> that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado.
>> It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter,
>> but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there
>> was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before
>> the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe.
>
>> Has anyone ever heard of blue lights in the sky with destruction
>> of property close by?
>
>
>    Flashes of light are often associated with plain old earthly tornados. I
>think it's from friction causing the air to get hot enough that the oxygen
>ignites.
>

I remember reading an article about a tornado that went directly overhead
some people.  They were able to look directly inside the vortex and they
described the inside as glowing blue with occasional flashes of lightning.
It would be kind of eerie to see that.

Jon


--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 754 Catalina Drive  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!amdcad!netcomsv!noring
From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 23:21:53 GMT
References: <9=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 57
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17667 alt.alien.visitors:3102

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Giles) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
>|> [...]                            I wonder if J.C. in his report gave
>|> an estimate of the angle subtended by the UFO using the object held at
>|> arm's length technique?  The impact of the observation obviously made an
>|> impact on him.
>
>The subtended angle of an object tells you its distance _only_ if
>you know how large the object is!  Since the object was reported
>as _unidentified_, one must assume that no such a-priori knowledge
>existed.  So, the only way to judge distance was parallax.  Since
>someone making a speech at the Lions Club rarely has the equipment
>available to make an accurate parallax measurement, I suspect his
>distance estimate was hot air.
>
>By the way, why do you assume engineers are trained observers?
>Most aren't.  Even those that are will only be reliable witnesses
>to those things that were connected with their branch of engineering.
>I believe Carter would be a quite reliable witness to the pressure
>and/or temperature readings on a ship-born nuclear reactor.  He was
>never trained as an aircraft spotter though.
>
>J. Giles

Most engineers have enough knowledge of the physical sciences to be
called "trained observers", and I don't believe that one engineer
could be fooled into believing that Venus is a UFO under any circumstances
except that they are drunk or drugged or insane or legally blind.  You
are correct in pointing out that for a given subtended angle one does not know
the distance to an object.  But I'm sure that what J.C. and his friends
saw had a measurable subtended angle (measurable by eye), and this is what
caused J.C. to take notice.

If a person reports a UFO, and they can give some idea of the size of it
(using, for example, the arm's length test), then what they saw cannot be a
planet (unless it can be shown that the person has one of the afflictions
mentioned above).  IMHO, the Venus explanation for UFO's has been overused
and misused by the so-called "experts", making me come to the conclusion
that these "experts" are either not very expert, or that they have a hidden
agenda or motivation for using this explanation.

And just to reiterate my beliefs:  I don't know if some or all UFO sitings
are due to extraterrestrial spacecraft, but I have not come to the
conclusion that there must be a terrestrial explanation for every sighting.

Jon Noring

--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 754 Catalina Drive  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!tulane!ukma!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 20:59:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17677 alt.alien.visitors:3103

[e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:

>
> I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in
> office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody
> provide any references?
>
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
> \ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ [e-mail] \  /  \  /  \
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

        Robert Sheaffer of CSICOP checked into it-- said it was probably the
planet Venus. Might want to contact him through CSICOP in Buffalo, NY,
although Sheaffer lives in San Francisco.


""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!ldoering
From: [e-mail] (Laurence Doering)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 08:09:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 47
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17681 alt.alien.visitors:3104

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
>
>Most engineers have enough knowledge of the physical sciences to be
>called "trained observers", and I don't believe that one engineer
>could be fooled into believing that Venus is a UFO under any circumstances
>except that they are drunk or drugged or insane or legally blind.  You
>are correct in pointing out that for a given subtended angle one does not know
>the distance to an object.  But I'm sure that what J.C. and his friends
>saw had a measurable subtended angle (measurable by eye), and this is what
>caused J.C. to take notice.
>
>If a person reports a UFO, and they can give some idea of the size of it
>(using, for example, the arm's length test), then what they saw cannot be a
>planet (unless it can be shown that the person has one of the afflictions
>mentioned above).  IMHO, the Venus explanation for UFO's has been overused
>and misused by the so-called "experts", making me come to the conclusion
>that these "experts" are either not very expert, or that they have a hidden
>agenda or motivation for using this explanation.
>
>And just to reiterate my beliefs:  I don't know if some or all UFO sitings
>are due to extraterrestrial spacecraft, but I have not come to the
>conclusion that there must be a terrestrial explanation for every sighting.

Have you ever looked at a really bright planet?  At times, Venus has an
apparent magnitude of -4 or so.  I can attest, from personal experience, that
when an object in the sky is that bright, it doesn't appear to be a point
of light.
As a graduate student in computer science (therefore an engineer), and a
licensed pilot, I think I meet your criteria for a "trained observer."
I remember one evening when I lived in Washington, DC, I went to a local
park to observe Mercury and Venus about 45 minutes after sunset.  I was
on a hillside, facing west, that was directly lined up with part of the
final approach course for aircraft landing at Washington National Airport.
There were scattered clouds in the west that occasionally obscured Venus
and Mercury, and at one point I was sure I was seeing Venus until the bright
light I was watching turned and started moving off to the south.  At that
point, I realized I was watching an airliner with its landing lights on.
Both planets later became visible, and I found that without binoculars, it
was very difficult to distinguish between Venus and aircraft landing lights,
unless you knew exactly where Venus was in the sky.
I don't automatically assume every UFO report is due to some well-known
terrestrial explanation either.  On the other hand, I've seen Venus when
it doesn't look much like the sort of thing one would normally see in the
sky, and I can easily imagine someone who isn't very familiar with astronomy
seeing a _very bright_ light near the horizon and assuming that it couldn't
possibly be a star or planet.
"trained engineer."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!gdc!foster
From: [e-mail] (Sharon Foster)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 09:49:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: General DataComm, Middlebury CT
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17682 talk.religion.newage:7708 alt.atheism:18014 alt.alien.visitors:3105

>
>     A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up --
> when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin was a
> hoax.


Applying scientific thinking to theological ideas is about
as useful, and valid, as applying theological thinking to
scientific ideas.

Being a Christian does not depend on the age of a piece of cloth.

--
Sharon "Just Another Bleeding-Heart Liberal" Foster

/* Sharon Foster....First Generation Trekkie  *      [e-mail]        */
/*        These are my own Biased Personal Opinions (tm).                  */
/* "Jesus asked us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and house the     */
/* homeless; he didn't mention anything about asking them for a financial  */
/* statement."    - me                                                     */
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!gtx!al
From: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 22:41:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Organization: GTX Corporation, Phoenix
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3106 alt.paranormal:3677

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
#>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
#>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
#>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
#
#Well, a friend of mine says it isn't supposed to destroy the Earth at all.
#It's supposed to orbit the Earth.  It's an orbiting Master Space Station
#and it's purpose is to facilitate first contact with us and initiate trade
#agreements.
#
# Mary Stanley

Uh-oh, I'm beginning to suspect that this thread is not a joke.


  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA )
 ( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al         [phone] )
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver
From: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 17:21:11 GMT
References: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Lose)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University
Lines: 63

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Steve Timpson) writes:
>]
>]In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (RichHalbs)
writes...
>]>[e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
>]>
>]>> ...
>]>>     HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>]>> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>]>
>]>I heard.  And I, quite frankly, am scared.
>]>
>]>RICHH
>]
>]
>]        Don't be.  There  are no asteroids heading for Earth.  You
have a
>]        better chance of being attacked  by  a  shark  in  the  middle
of
>]        Kansas than being killed by an asteroid hitting Earth.  (and I
do
>]        not be SHARK as in Lawyer 8^))
>Not true. The odds of being killed by an asteroid during your lifetime
>is about one in 10,000 according to some astronomers who have been
>studying asteroid strikes on earth. This assumes that when one does
strike,
>it kills a whole lot of people. I would point out that this risk is
much
>larger than your risk of being killed by either a plane crash or
lighting,
>and as an ex-Kansan, clearly larger than your risk of being killed by
>a shark (non-lawyer) in Kansas.
>
>The good news is that 1 in 10000 is pretty small odds when spread over
a
>lifetime.
>
>The bad news is that it would be unlikely with current setups for
there
>to be any warning or corrective action in the event that an asteroid
>was on a near-term collision with earth.
>
>Perhaps the Pleidians will tell us :-)
>--

Wait a second!  Now perhaps my arithmetic is bad, but if the odds of my
getting killed by an asteroid (spread over my whole lifetime) are
1 in 10,000, then wouldn't we not expect that for similar lifetimes of
every 10,000 people, that about one of them is getting killed by an asteroid?
So with a planet of a population of approx. 5,000,000,000 (5 billion), we
would expect there would be up to 500,000 asteroid-related deaths!

Actually, I'm being somewhat facetious, but maybe the odds should actually
be rather lower, or that there are some other conditions for asteroid-dying
that John Moore didn't mention!

BTW - sometime back on alt.alien.visitors there was a thread about a person
who was actually struck by a meteorite, anybody remember the details?

BTW part two - What are the chances of getting killed by a seagoing lawyer
(shark variety) in the Pleiedes (sp) ?  What are the odds compared with
Kansas?  :)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham
From: [e-mail] (JIM GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:01:46 GMT
References: <9=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes...
>If a person reports a UFO, and they can give some idea of the size of it
>(using, for example, the arm's length test), then what they saw cannot be a
>planet (unless it can be shown that the person has one of the afflictions
>mentioned above).  IMHO, the Venus explanation for UFO's has been overused
>and misused by the so-called "experts", making me come to the conclusion
>that these "experts" are either not very expert, or that they have a hidden
>agenda or motivation for using this explanation.
>

I agree!  I don't think there's a hidden agenda though.  I think most of it
is a deliberate attempt at remaing ignorant about whats really going on,
either from lack of interest or just plain armchair laziness.

I think it would be interesting to know just how many self-proclaimed
skeptics have actually been fooled by their own straw-man arguments.

For example, if it's that easy to be fooled into believing that a point
source of light (such as VENUS) can be mistaken for an object _with
visible physical dimension_, then I would expect many skeptics including
perhaps those that call themselves such on this group to have been
fooled as well.

I consider myself a skeptic (a true one, not a religious debunker).
I have personally been fooled by a point light source.  But, at no
time did I think that what I saw had shape and dimension.  I knew
when I was looking at it that it was not resolvable.  I was looking at
a bright light beyond and at the top of a distant tree line, in the late
Fall, on a slighty breezy night.

The light literally appeared to "dance" up and down, left and right,
skipping and hopping across the top of the trees.

After observing for 5 minutes or so (trying to explain it, of course),
I finally realized that the wind was moving the tree limbs back and forth
in front of the light.  Only after realizing this was I able to verify
that this was the case by choosing a fixed reference point and watching
the light.   No movement then, even though the limbs were still swaying.

The point is that at no time did I even THINK that what I was seeing had
any physical dimension or shape.  It LOOKED like a dancing star and nothing
more.

So, if point sources of light (primarily the tiresome VENUS) are reported
as physical objects that often, why aren't they reported as dancing stars
or dancing planets rather than space ships?  Are there really that many
professional people telling us lies about ufo's?

There is nothing unique about the skeptic's powers of observation over
those of the thousands of people who report sightings (after all, many
of those are professionals).

Besides, whether Carter is right about the size, based on "subtended angle"
or whatever, is totally irrelevant.  What _is_ relevant is that if someone
reports visible physical dimension and shape, then it's a fair bet that the
straw-man "VENUS" argument is crap.

To some skeptics, seeing isn't believing.  We can all be "fooled" by our
senses.  Even in large numbers and at the same time.  So I wonder how some
of them may ever be convinced by their own cries for "objective" evidence.

Sadly, the only "evidence" that many of them will accept is evidence of a
_repeatable_ nature.  Well, that's fine if you're carrying out scientific
experiments to confirm the _experimental claims_ of others.

The problem with that is that evidence of a non-repeatable nature _does_
exist, and by its very nature, is not often subject to scrutiny by
self-made experts.  What many of them fail to understand is that even
"objectivity" is "relative".

In other words, regardless of what one experiences with the five senses,
even in large groups, one can accept or deny it, period.  The self-made
skeptic is especially guilty of this.

For example, let's say it is shown by several people directly involved in
investigating something that there is "compelling evidence" that further
scientific investigation is needed.

Too many times (at least in this newsgroup), the response has been:

  "Compelling to whom?  Certainly not me."

Like I said, we believe what we _choose_ to believe, evidence (in any form)
notwithstanding.

>Jon Noring

Jim Graham

         -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
 ______________________________________________________________________
| Internet: [e-mail]                              |
| UUCP:     dolmen![e-mail]                        |
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|            [phone], 24hrs.                                    |
|______________________________________________________________________|
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham
From: [e-mail] (JIM GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:56:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Sharon Foster) writes...
>>
>>     A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up --
>> when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin was a
>> hoax.
>
>
>Applying scientific thinking to theological ideas is about
>as useful, and valid, as applying theological thinking to
>scientific ideas.
>
>Being a Christian does not depend on the age of a piece of cloth.
>
>--
>Sharon "Just Another Bleeding-Heart Liberal" Foster
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But....BUT....I thought liberals were atheists!

Shoot.



Just joking....

Non-liberal, non-conservative....Jim (I refuse to be labeled) Graham.

         -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
 ______________________________________________________________________
| Internet: [e-mail]                              |
| UUCP:     dolmen![e-mail]                        |
| BBS:      The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) |
|            [phone], 24hrs.                                    |
|______________________________________________________________________|
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:23:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Thu, 14 Nov 1991 07:01:33 GMT
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> >         This is a VERY paranoid file.
> >
> *      Yes, perhaps it is; you may be right to a degree.   However, this is
> alt.alien.visitors, not alt.just.the.facts.  I believe it's okay to speculate
> on possibilities and express your own view of reality.  Or am I wrong? *
>
> *   an amateur astronomer *


    There's nothing wrong with speculating, but presenting wildly innacurate
facts about nonexistent scientific discoveries should be considered a no-no.

  * another amateur astronomer *
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 21:51:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>
> >I heard.  And I, quite frankly, am scared.
> >
> >RICHH
>
>
>         Don't be.  There  are no asteroids heading for Earth.  You have a
>         better chance of being attacked  by  a  shark  in  the  middle of
>         Kansas than being killed by an asteroid hitting Earth.  (and I do
>         not be SHARK as in Lawyer 8^))
>
>         Steve

    Although the asteroid being dicussed is a myth, the danger of an asteroid
striking the earth is not nonexistent.  In 1989 a small (and previously
uncharted asteroid) came withing about 1 million miles (4 x the distance of
the moon) and last year a smaller one passed between the Earth and Moon.
There are an estimated 10,000 yet uncharted asteroids in orbits that cross the
Earth's.  If you look at the number of people on the planet and the
destructiveness of plane wrecks as compared to this estimate of asteroid
numbers and the casualties that would result if one struck the earth, you'll
find that the odds are six times higher that any one person will die from an
asteroid collision than from a plane crash.  That sounds pretty horrifying
until you consider how many people on the earth actually travel by air.  Even
so, this year the first international conference was held to determine what
(if any) defensive actions could be taken in the event of an encounter with an
asteroid.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 22:19:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:

>    Hmmm. India clearly can make fission weapons, but as far as I
>know, they have not exploded a fusion device. In the absense of such
>a fusion bomb test, how can Inda have killed people with them? Ditto
>for covert members of the nuclear club, like Israel and South
>Africa.

Whoops, I was wrong in making the assumption that a country that
develops fission weapons, would naturally go onto developing
fusion weapons as well.  Which countries have developed fusion
weapons, aside from the US and the USSR?

The deaths I was refering to would have been from directly
nuclear related effects, either from manufacture or detonation.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Gulfbreeze files - Introduction
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:34:50 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 91
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3113 alt.conspiracy:8609 sci.skeptic:17689



========================================================================
             **   Gulfbreeze Introduction   **
========================================================================



The following articles are part of a series on the Gulfbreeze
UFO's . I know of no other case in UFOlogy that has been
debated/contested as much as this one has. Much of the debate
centers around "Mr Ed", Ed Walters and the swirls of controversy
over his photos. There have been cries of "HOAX!" ever since
this case made the headlines a few years ago, and this was only
exacerbated even further when Ed wrote his book. Much of the
debate centers over the infamous "road shot" that appears in
this book and the tug of war between the various UFO groups
still continues to this day. To date, there has not been any
established or absolute conclusive PROOF as to the hoax claims,
though there has been quite a few theories advanced. What makes
Ed's claims the more difficult to accept by many is that he has
been the ONLY one who has photographed the UFO(s) in great detail,
where others have only managed to get "red blobs" in their pics.

Having followed this for a few years now..it is still NO closer
to being resolved. I think I could safely say that the ParaNet
UFO organization and CUFOS have rated Ed Walters as probable
hoax. MUFON on the other hand, has stood behind the Walters
case all the way.

Here's a partial list of characters so you will understand who the
principles are:

Ed Walters - The _center_ of the controversy.He took the photos
and wrote the book, "The Gulf Breeze Sightings".

Bob Oechsler - Investigator/reporter.

Donald Ware - Florida state MUFON director. Investigator.

Carol and Rex Salisberry - (former) State Section Directors for
Pensacola MUFON. Investigators.

Dr. Bruce Maccabee - Optical physicist for the US Navy and MUFON
State Director for Maryland. Principle photo analyst for MUFON.

Duane Cook - Editor of the Gulf Breeze Sentinel.

Willy Smith - Claims that Ed made the models and hoaxed the photos.
Got nailed in a "sting" by Antonio Huneeus and Manuel Fernandez and
was later dis-credited.

 - Others mentioned in articles on the BBS side -

John Hicks - Currently is the FIDO_UFO moderator and owner of a
camera business. Knows his optics pretty well and has done some
investigation in his own right in the Gulfbreeze area.

Jim Speiser - The guy I like to refer as the "curmudgeon of ParaNet" :-)
He's asked the hard questions and brought up several inconsistencies
of the whole affair on ParaNet. In this case, he is very much a skeptic.

Unfortunately, this case has also caused much division in UFOlogy with
the extremes of positions. It's quite probable that there has been
some dis-information involved as well.

There seems to be two issues here...one regarding sightings and photos
by Ed Walters and the other involving witnessed sightings _without_
Ed Walters. In the latter case, there has been quite a lot of those.
These sightings are *still* going on today. Some have speculated
that the recent skyquakes in the Gulfbreeze/Tampa area may be
associated with UFO's.

Who knows...if you're ever down in the panhandle of Florida and have
some time to spend..you just might be able to witness this phenomenon
for yourself. Bring a good camera or vidcam and do NOT trust the
autofocus, but learn to do it manually and you'll get good pictures.

Since there are quite a lot of these files, I would suggest that you
save them when they hit your system as I don't plan on re-posting them
again. This is a one time shot. There's going to be about 38 files
altogether totalling around 290K.

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: 1/30/89 Gulf Breeze UFO Update.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:36:39 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 53
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3114 alt.conspiracy:8610 sci.skeptic:17690




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

  1238  01-30-89 12:11 aes

Researchers say photos show UFO
   GULF BREEZE, Fla. (UPI) _ UFO experts are debating the authenticity
of photographs of an eerie cylindrical object glowing in the night sky
over the Florida Panhandle town of Gulf Breeze.
   More than 135 residents in the past 18 months have reported seeing
a strange craft hovering in skies over Gulf Breeze, the Tampa Tribune
reported Sunday.
   One resident, asked to be identified only as "Ed," has produced
photographs showing a cylindrical craft ringed with lights and what may
be windows.
   The pictures have sparked a battle between two UFO investigating
groups.
   The Mutual UFO Network, a 20-year-old group of scientists and
layman researchers, believes Ed's pictures are real. The Center for UFO
Studies, a non-profit group founded by the late astronomer J. Allen
Hynek, does not.
   The network cites a 90-page study by Navy physicist Bruce Maccabee,
who says Ed could not have fabricated such convincing photographs.
   "A professional magician would have a difficult time doing this,"
he said.
   The center relies on its researchers and on Robert Nathan, of
NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. He said the photos show glaring
inconsistencies typical of double exposures.
   Mark Rodeghier of the Center for UFO Studies said the case has
"deteriorated into a shouting match" between the two groups, and that
the network's endorsement of the pictures biased Maccabee's study.
   "Except those intimately connected with the network, 90 percent of
serious UFO researchers think (the) Gulf Breeze (case) is a hoax,"
Rodeghier said.
   But residents of the town of 6,000 think they know what they saw.
   "I was exhilarated," said Brenda Pollak, a City Council member
who claimed to see a large, lighted craft twice in one night last spring
over Pensacola Bay. "I can tell you now _ for every one person who has
reported seeing the craft, there are 10 who talk about it but don't want
anyone to know."

============================================================================


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: UPI Article Gulf Breeze, Fla UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:38:11 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 101
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3115 alt.conspiracy:8611 sci.skeptic:17691




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

NEWS CLIPPING SERVICE

DATE OF ARTICLE:  January 30, 1989
SOURCE OF ARTICLE:  NEWS
LOCATION:  PARKERSBURG, WV
BYLINE:  NONE (UPI)
========================================================
THIS FILE WAS PROVIDED BY THE UFO NEWSCLIPPING SERVICE
AND PREPARED BY PARANET ALPHA -- PARANET INFORMATION
SERVICE
========================================================
                       LOOK, UP IN THE SKY
                               ...
                   FLORIDANS SURE PHOTOS PROVE
                               ...
                  UFOS VISITING PANHANDLE AREA

     Gulf  Breeze,  FLA.   (UPI) -- Photographs of an eerily  lit
cylindrical object drifting through the night sky have scientists
debating  whether  unidentified flying objects are  visiting  the
Florida Panhandle.

     More  than 135 Gulf Breeze's 6,000 residents  have  reported
seeing  a  strange craft hovering in the skies over the past  one
and a half years, the Tampa Tribune reported Sunday.

     One resident, asked to be identified only as "Ed" to protect
his anonymity,  has produced startling photographs of the alleged
UFO.   Those  pictures,  showing a cylindrical craft ringed  with
lights and what may be windows,  lie at the heart of a  simmering
battle between two UFO investigating groups.

     The  Mutual UFO Network,  a 20-year-old group of  scientists
and layman researchers, believes Ed's pictures are real.  But the
Center  for  UFO Studies,  a non-profit group found by  the  late
astronomer, J. Allen Hynek, does not.

     The  network  cites a 90-page study done by  Navy  physicist
Bruce  Maccabee.   Maccabee  said  Ed could not  have  made  such
perfect fakes, and that the pictures are real.

     "A  professional magician would have a difficult time  doing
this," he said.

     Maccabee  also cites circumstantial evidence in Ed's  favor,
including  sightings  by others who described UFOs  identical  to
those in Ed's photos.

     The  center  relies  on its own researchers  and  on  Robert
Nathan of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.  Nathan, who conceded
he  had  not studied the pictures as completely as did  Maccabee,
said  the photos show glaring inconsistencies typical  of  double
exposures.

     Mark  Rodeghier of the Center for UFO Studies said the  Gulf
Breeze  case had "deteriorated into a shouting match" because his
group  was  forced  to play devil's  advocate  when  the  network
endorsed the pictures.  That endorsement biased Maccabee's study,
he said.

     "Except  those  intimately connected with  the  network,  90
percent  of serious UFO researchers think Gulf Breeze is a hoax,"
Rodeghier said.

     For  many Gulf Breeze residents,  what the experts think  is
beside the point -- they know what they saw.

     "I  was  exhilarated," said Brenda Pollak,  a  City  Council
member who said she saw a large, lighted craft twice in one night
in spring of 1988.   Ms.  Pollak said she watched the craft hover
over Pensacola Bay while, unknown to her, Ed shot pictures of the
UFO from only a few blocks away.

     "I can tell you now -- for every one person who has reported
seeing  the craft,  there are 10 who talk about it but don't want
anyone to know," Ms. Pollack said.

     "I'm not saying that I believe it's from another planet, but
it's  something  I  had never laid eyes on  in  my  life,"  added
Shirley McConnell.   Mrs.  McConnell and her husband,  who is the
medical examiner for Florida's District 1, say that last June the
craft  hovered  within  75 yards of their house for  nearly  four
minutes before drifting off.

     "People can say whatever they want about me, but I know what
I saw.  Ed didn't make this up," Mrs. McConnell said.

=================================================================

--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Interim Report - Carol A. & Rex C. Salisberry
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:41:42 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 273
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3116 alt.conspiracy:8612 sci.skeptic:17692





The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


From:        Carol A. & Rex C. Salisberry    23 September 1990
             Navarre Beach, Fl. 32566-7235

To:          Walter H. Andrus, Jr.
             103 Oldtowne Road
             Sequin, Tx 78155-4099

Subject:     Interim Report on the reopening of the Walters' UFO Case


Background: The investigators, Carol & Rex Salisberry had not been
involved with the prior investigation of the Walter's Case and had
accepted the MUFON assessment of its validity without close personal
scrutiny. When Tommy Smith came forward with his allegations on 15
June 1990, the investigators doubted them and, in fact made several
public statements in support of the Walter's Case. After the press
conferences on 19 June 1990, wherein Mr. Charles Flannigan ( Florida
MUFON State Director) announced the reopening of the Walters' Case and
the commitment by MUFON to finding the truth, we were asked by Mr.
Flannigan to assist him in the next phase of the investigation. During
a meeting of Mr. Walter Andrus, MUFON International Director, Mr.
Flannigan, and Mr. Salisberry on Thursday 5 July 1990, Mr. Andrus
expressed his capacity to accept the result that the Walter's Case was
a total fraud if that was proven to be the case. We deemed this to be
a critical commitment on his part , because we didn't want the results
of our work to " be swept under the rug" if they were contrary to the
then prevailing views of many MUFON officials and others. Upon
receiving this commitment from Mr. Andrus we proceeded with the
investigation with an open mind and with the greatest degree of
objectivity that we could muster. Our previous, personal supportive
views of the case had to be subjugated so as not to influence the fact
finding process.

Tentative Conclusions: Although there is much work remaining to be
done in the investigation of this case, we have arrived at  result
that we deem should be brought to the attention of MUFON before it is
uncovered and released to the public by outside interests. On 9
September 1990, our analysis of Photo 19 of the Walters' case
indicated a very high probability that the reflection on the road
could not have been made by an object hovering over the road as
described by Mr. Walters and validated by Dr. Maccabee. It is a
virtual physical impossibility for the reflection to occur as depicted
in Photo 19. Perhaps one of the easiest methods of producing the photo
is by use of a small model (photographed at close range) and double
exposure techniques as demonstrated by Mr. Mark Curtis of WEAR TV. Mr.
Curtis and his associate, a biologist and model maker, have been
harshly criticized by their critics. We were allowed to witness their
effort and know that their intent was to demonstrate that the process
was feasible and their purpose was not to duplicate the Walters'
photo. (It is interesting that they too introduced the fatal flaw of
creating a reflection which was not possible under the circumstances.)
The detailed account of our analysis of Photo 19 is shown in
Attachment 1.

Mr. Flannigan and Mr. Salisberry telephoned Mr. Andrus on Sunday
evening 9 September 1990 to inform him of the results of the analysis.
During the conversation it was suggested that two independent experts
be contacted to confirm the validity of our analysis. Those two
experts were provided the details of the analysis and have orally
responded with their confirmations of the validity of the results.

With Photo 19 shown to be a probable hoax, Photo 14 is likewise
categorized since it is essentially identical to Photo 19 except for
geographic location. With these two photos reassessed as probable
hoaxes, the other photos which depict an image of the same model
should be considered as highly suspect. Intellectual and scientific
integrity then dictate that the suspect photos be downgraded in the
overall assessment of the validity of the case.

Another aspect of the Walters' case which has come into question is
whether or not he knew how to take double exposures prior to 11
November 1987. Mr. S. Peter Neumann, of WEAR TV and a resident of Gulf
Breeze, has informed us that Mr. Walters had told him and his wife
much earlier than 11 November 1987 that Walters sometimes used double
exposure photography to amuse the young people who attended the
parties in the Walters' home. Mr. Neumann has declined to provide us
with a written and signed statement to this effect, but indicated that
he would provide the same information to anyone calling by telephone.
Additionally, the young people whom we have interviewed relate that
Mr. Walters consistently "had a camera in his hand" at the various
activities at which he was present. These young people also confirmed
that Mr. Walters sometimes took what appeared to be trick photos and
that they could not understand how it was done.

Discussion: It is emphasized that the reassessment of the Walters'
Case should not be cause to believe or disbelieve the hundreds of
other UFO related experiences in the Pensacola area. Each reported
case had been evaluated on its own merits and should stand as
reported. It is even quite probable that the Walters family have had
experiences with UFO related phenomena; however, this is difficult to
assess at this point because of the previous preoccupation with the
photos which may have distorted the data.

Recommendation: MUFON should release the results of our analysis to
the public as soon as practical. We consider this important to
maintain our integrity as an objective UFO investigative organization.

                           Attachment One

Preliminary Analysis of Photo 19 of the Walters' UFO Case made by Rex
C. Salisberry on 9 September 1990.

ASSUMPTIONS:
     (1)  The object and the light ring at the bottom are circular
(source - Mccabee, 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings).
     (2)  The distance from the camera to the object is 185 (+/- 5)
feet (source - Maccabee, page 145 of 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings)
     (3)  The diameter of the light ring at the bottom is 7.5 feet
(source - Maccabee, same as #2).
     (4)  The tilt of the object away from the observer is about 13
degrees ( source - Dr. Willy Smith, page 14 of his " The Gulf Breeze
Saga")
     (5)  The height of the object above the road is about 3 feet
(source - Maccabee, same as #2).
     (6)  The height of the camera was about 5 feet.
     (7)  The reflection on the Flat and relatively level road should
have a round or slightly oval shape. Regardless of the shape of the
reflection, since the cross dimension of the light is roughly equal to
the cross dimension of the reflection, fore-and-aft dimensions of the
light and the reflection should also correspond.

APPROACH:
     It seemed to be a prudent scientific approach to determine what
the reflection should appear to be under the given assumptions and
then compare that result with the photograph.

ANALYSIS:
     (1) Since the three-dimensional appearance of the reflection is
converted to two dimensions on film, the two dimensional presentation
to the camera should be determined. The horizontal presentation is
unchanged because of the geometry of the scene, however the height and
depth presentations are converted to a vertical only presentation as
follows:
                        5ft-> |
                              |90__________> (Angle A )
                                   185ft

Angle A = arctan 5/185 = arctan (0.027027) = 1.54815 degrees

The fore-and-aft dimension (x,) of the reflection on the road is given
by                                ^  <-7.5ft
                                /90
                              /_____________13 degrees
                                     x,
x, = (7.5 feet)/(cosine 13 degrees)= 7.6972813 feet
The vertical dimension (y,) as it would appear to the camera is then
given by
                   |
              5ft  |                ^y,
                   |                |
                   |90_______________7.6972813______>Angle A = 1.54815
                                185ft
y, = ( 7.6972813 feet)( sin 1.54815 deg.) = 0.2979574 feet = 2.49549
inches.

(2) Computation of the comparable vertical dimension from the photo
facing page 129 of Walter's book is as follows:

     The ratio of the vertical dimension to the horizontal dimension
is approximately 1 to 4 as measured on the photograph.
     Then by proportion      Yz / 7.6972813 feet = 1/4
                  Yz = (7.6972813feet)/4 = 1.9243203 feet
which is over 9 times greater than the expected value computed in (1)

(3) If the road surface was sloped up abruptly below the object at an
angle of about 14 degrees, the presentation of the reflection as shown
on Photo 19 could have been attained.





                              .   |
                         .        |1.9243203 feet
                   .              |
     Angle  B  <________________90|
                 7.6972813 feet

Angle B = arctan (1.9243203)/(7.7972813)= 14 degrees
(This computation is not precise but is a close enough approximation
upon which to draw a conclusion.)

Since the road is known to not have a 14 degree slope at the point
indicated in the photo, this possibility is ruled out. However, a
similar reflection to the one shown in Photo 19 was produced by Mark
Curtis for WEAR TV which indicates that the reflection could have been
made by using a small model and double-exposure camera techniques. Mr.
Curtis and his associate made the mistake of slanting the top of their
light pipe and then covering it with thin paper to create the image
for reflection. The fatal flaw produced a similar " fat " reflection
as the one shown in Photo 19.

(4) It is possible that the camera elevation could have been higher
than the 5 feet assumed, so the camera elevation needed to produce the
photo image of the reflection is roughly calculated by using a
proportion as follows:

                    |
                 Y3 |         |< 1.9243203 feet
                    |         |
                    |_________|____________________
                                7.6972813 feet
                    |<.............185 feet.......>|

     Y3/185 feet = 1.9243203 feet/7.6972813 feet

    Y3 = (1.9243203) (185 feet)/7.6972813  = 46.25 feet

Visual inspection of photo 19 indicates that a camera elevation of
46.25 feet was not possible.

(5) It could also be argued that the fore-and-aft dimension of the
reflection on the road could have been greater than the approximate
7.7 feet calculated in (1) above. Therefore a calculation of the
fore-and-aft dimension needed to produce the reflection of Photo 19 is
as follows:
                   |     .
              5 ft |          | <1.9243203 feet
                   |90........|.....X2.......
                   |>            185ft     <|
        X2 = (185) ( 1.9243203feet)/5 = 71.2 feet

Again, a visual inspection of Photo 19 rules out this possibility.

(6) Other arguments could be offered, e.g. heat from the bottom of the
UFO heated the wet road which caused steam to rise. The reflection on
the water droplets in the steam would then cause the reflection to
appear " fatter " than expected. Such arguments employ circular logic
and hence must be discounted. Additional, the case file does not
contain any evidence to indicate that the road was subjected to heat.

(7) Anyone can perform a simple demonstration to convince himself of
the validity of the above analysis. Construct a model of the scene
using a scale of 1 inch = 1 foot as follows:
 (1) Cut a 7.5 inch diameter circle from a piece of white paper.
(2) Place the 7.5 inch circular piece of paper on a flat surface to
represent the reflection on the road.
(3) Move away 185 inches to simulate the distance from the camera to
the object.
(4) View the circle from an elevation of 5 inches above the elevation
of the circle as shown below ( You can cut a peep hole 5 inches above
the bottom edge of a piece of cardboard to help in setting the proper
height above the circle of paper):

               (Eye)>|
                     |5 inches
                     |____________________________()7.5inch white disc
                            185 inches

One can then easily see that the circle appears as a thin line and not
as the "fat" reflection shown in Photo 19

Conclusions: It is virtually impossible that the object as described
in Walter's book and Maccabee's analyses could have caused the
reflection as shown in Photo 19. A small model and double exposure
camera techniques could have been used to produce the reflection as
described in (3) above.


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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: And More Latest News Of Gulf Breeze
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:44:01 GMT
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------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


Message number 868 in "MUFONET"
Date: 10-30-90  09:11
From: John Hicks
To:   all
Subj: ED WALTERS NEWS ARTICLE

PENSACOLA NEWS JOURNAL
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 27, 1990
..............................
INVESTIGATORS DOUBT UFO AUTHOR
BY CRAIG MYERS
NEWS JOURNAL
..............................
Two investigators for the MUTUAL UFO Network said Friday  they believe Gulf
Breeze author Ed. Walters faked some of the photos of UFOs that appear in his
book.
" We believe that UFOs exist," said Rex and Carol Salisberry of Navarre of
their study of several of Walter's photos. " We entered this investigation
with a natural and favorable bias toward the Walter's case, " but " our
investigation and analysis lend to the conclusion that several, if not all of
the photos are probable hoaxes."
Walters, who co-wrote " The Gulf Breeze Sightings" with his wife Frances,
maintains the photos are real and that they were taken during numerous
encounters between November 1987 and March 1988.
Walters has appeared on numerous radio and television shows, including "
Unsolved Mysteries " and the Oprah Winfrey Show, to recount his experiences
with UFOs.
He was reported to be out of town Friday and could not be reached for
comment.
In July the couple was named " Investigators of the Year " at a MUFON
Symposium in Pensacola.
Walt Andrus, MUFON's international director, said Friday that his
organization is not yet ready to give its stamp of approval to the
Salisberry's four month investigation of the photos.
" I don't know how they arrived at that decision." Andrus said from his
office in Sequin, Texas. " It is certainly premature. He has no business
talking to reporters. It has never been cleared through here. He can't make
representations for the organizations."
Andrus, who has for two years endorsed the Walters case, appointed Salisberry
in July to take a second look at the case after questions surfaced about the
credibility of Walter's photos.
The first question arose after a model was found in the Walter's former
residence in Gulf Breeze in March. The Styrofoam and drafting paper model was
found in the attic of the home and strongly resembled a drawing Walter's made
of one of his UFO sightings.
The second question arose when Tommy Smith, formerly of Gulf Breeze, said in
July that he witnessed Walter's fake UFO photos. Smith said Walters asked him
to take some faked UFO photos to the Gulf Breeze newspaper and claim they
were real.
But Andrus on Friday said Smith is lying and the UFO model was hidden in the
attic by someone who wants to discredit Walters.
"Tommy Smith can't prove any of his statements- they are outlandish lies,"
Andrus said.
The Salisberrys said Smith's testimony and the model contributed to their
conclusion, but more convincing was an analysis of Walter's so-called " road
shot " that shows a UFO hovering over a road.
Salisberry said the reflection of the spacecraft, which should be flat,
actually is at an angle that does not match the road's surface. The
triangular shape of the reflection also does not match the round light source
on the bottom of the craft, he said.
The Salisberrys said the photo and a second photo probably was created by a
double-exposure-- a process by which a model is photographed and the image is
exposed again onto the same frame of film.
" With these photos reassessed as probable hoaxes, the other photos... should
be considered as highly suspect, " Salisberry wrote in the preliminary
report.
Seven MUFON members investigated the sightings in 1988 and concluded Walter's
story was true. The Salisberrys were not among the original investigators,
but joined MUFON in November 1988.
Andrus said that while the Salisberrys are good investigators, they cannot
yet speak for MUFON.
" They ( the Salisberrys ) do not have grounds to arrive at that conclusion
until it is submitted to us. We will have to look at their facts," Andrus
said.
The Salisberrys have not yet submitted their report to MUFON.
Phil Klass, a contributing editor to Aviation Week & Space Technology
magazine and a longtime Walters critic, said Andrus is too " proud and
stubborn " to accept the report.
" I think the Salisberrys should be commended for being willing to change
their earlier opinion," said Klass.
But Dr. Bruce Maccabee, a photographic analyst who has defended Walter's
photos. said the road reflection does not discredit the photo.
Maccabee said his analysis of the photo shows light from beneath the object
was projected at an angle-like car headlights shinning ahead of a car on a
wet road.
Maccabee said Friday he still is open-minded about the Walter's sightings,
but said it would take more convincing evidence than Salisberry's report to
convince him of a hoax.
" Nothing I have seen has changed my mind," Maccabee said.
Salisberry said his conclusion on Walters' photo does not shake his own
belief in UFOs. And he said his report won't end the Walters' debate.
" The problem with Walters' story isn't a UFO problem, it is a human
problem". Salisberry said. " If the Walters' case is typical of most UFO
cases, the debate will probably go on for years in spite of any evidence pro
or con."
******************************************************************************
--- via Quickpoint XRS 3.2- (286)
 * Origin: UFINET//PARANET//MUFONET [phone] (1:363/29)


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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: 10/30/90 News-Journal Ed Walters
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:47:44 GMT
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The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

**************************************************************
UFO REPORT POLITICAL, OFFICIAL SAYS
By Craig Myers
NEWS JOURNAL (TUESDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990)
**************************************************************
A report that Gulf Breeze resident Ed Walters may have faked
photographs of UFOs is designed to hurt Walters' campaign for
city council, a Mutual UFO Network official said Monday.
Dan Wright, who heads UFO investigations for MUFON, said
Monday the organization is " concerned that one of our
investigators may have taken sides in a political dispute."
Walters co-wrote " The Gulf Breeze Sightings," which recounts
encounters he claims to have had with UFOs between November
1987 and March 1988. He is a candidate for City Council in
Gulf Breeze on the Nov. 6 ballot.
Walters would not comment Monday, but said earlier this month
that his alleged UFO encounters were not an issue in the
campaign.
The issue resurfaced Friday after Rex and Carol Salisberry,
investigators for the UFO network, released a summary of a
preliminary report that said Walters likely faked at least two
photographs reproduced in his book.
The Salisberrys, MUFON investigators of the year in 1989-1990,
were asked in July to reopen the case.
The new probe was prompted by the discovery of a model in the
attic of Walters' former home in Gulf Breeze. The plastic foam
and drafting paper model strongly resembled a drawing of an
alleged UFO in Walters' book.
In another incident, a former Gulf Breeze man said he helped
Walters fake UFO photos at least once in 1987.
On Monday, Wright said that Gulf Breeze Mayor Ed Gray, a
longtime critic of Walters, may have "pressed" the Salisberrys
to release their report before election.
" It is possible that Gray may have found a sympathetic ear,"
Wright said in a telephone interview from Lansing, Mich.,
where he lives.
But Salisberry said that Gray had absolutely no influence on
the report's release. " I could care less about the City
Council race," Salisberry said. " I don't live in Gulf
Breeze."
Gray would not comment on Wright's allegations.
In his report, Salisberry questioned the legitimacy of the
so-called " road shot " which shows a UFO hovering over a
road.
The reflection of the spacecraft, which should be flat,
actually is at an angle that does not match the road's
surface. The triangular shape of the reflection also does not
match the round light source, Salisberry said.
Salisberry said that he told MUFON International Director Walt
Andrus in September that he believed Walters faked some, if
not all, of his photos. It was then, he said, that he learned
some MUFON members were trying to discredit him.
Before the personal attacks began, he said he decided to make
public his findings. " I told them we would not tolerate being
discredited," he said. " We were already being categorized as
debunkers that have a history of shooting the messenger."
Wright on Monday said evidence still indicates Walters' photos
are legitimate and that MUFON has no interest in the City
Council race.
" If we find Rex didn't take into consideration all factors
and didn't make all the necessary contacts, we may have to
determine it is an incomplete report," Wright said.


--
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Styrofoam Saucer Found in Ed Walters House
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:49:12 GMT
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The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


THE TAMPA TRIBUNE, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 13, 1990
-------------------------------------------

By DAVID TORTORANO
of United Press International

      PENSACOLA - A model flying saucer that cast doubts on a man's
claim he photographed UFOs two years ago has been tested and is being
returned to the man who found it, a newspaper editor said Tuesday.
      Ken Fortengerry, managing editor of the Pensacola News Journal,
said results of the tests would not be known for a couple of weeks.
He declined to say what tests were performed.
      The discovery of the 9-inch model was the latest twist on a story
that began in 1987, when contractor Ed Walters took photographs of
objects that appeared to be flying saucers near his home in Gulf
Breeze, a suburb of Pensacola.
      The photographs prompted a wave of sightings from other residents
that continue to this day. Walters claimed he had dozens of additional
encounters, including a face-to-face confrontation with a 4-foot alien.
      His book about the encounters is selling well.
      A private group that investigates UFO sightings calls the Gulf
Breeze flurry among the most notable sightings in U.S. history.
Skeptics have long claimed the pictures were faked, but offered no
proof.
      Then came the model.
      It was found in April by a man who moved into a house once owned
by Walters.  The newspaper got possession of the model and on Sunday
printed pictures by staff photographers using the model.
      They look similar to Walters' pictures.
      "This is a very critical piece of evidence and a very
controversial story," said Fortenberry, who said the newspaper was
besieged with calls Monday from the media asking about the model.
      The model was to be returned to the owners Tuesday.
      The man, who wished not to be identified, said he was installing
an ice-maker in his home and had gone to the attic to trace some pipes
when he found the model under some insulation.
      "It was not a shock or startling or anything," said the resident,
a scientist. He knew of Walters' involvement in sightings and figured
the model was one that Walters may have built for a reenactment. "I
thought nothing more about it."
      Later, he saw a diagram of the Walters' UFO.
      "I recall thinking to myself, that model looks a lot like this
diagram," he said. Last week he received a visit from a reporter from
the newspaper.
      "This, frankly, I find a little suspicious," said the resident,
who said the reporter showed up at the door and asked whether he had
found any photographs or models. That's when he told him.
      "I wish I had lied," he said.
      Walters insists there was ample opportunity for someone to plant
the model.
      "The house was on the market for 10 months, during which time it
was opened during the day and sometimes closed up and locked up at
night," said Walters. "Sometime, somebody planted this model."


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Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:51:03 GMT
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The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

Date: 03-12-91  00:19
From: John Hicks
To:   all
Subj: GB sighting

                     STRANGE LIGHT IN SKY DRAWS ATTENTION
           by David Baker, THE GULF BREEZE SENTINEL, March 3, 1991.

  On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile
bridge. AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a
bright red light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze.
  The two men said the light would dim then come back bright red, stay that
way for a while and then dim again, all the while moving slowly in their
direction. They detected no sound from the object.
  Before the object disappeared it blinked to green momentarily, changed to a
brilliant white and slowly faded away. The sighting lasted about four minutes
and there were nine additional witnesses.


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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Gulf Breeze Newsclipping 1/30/90
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:52:14 GMT
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------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

  1238  01-30-89 12:11 aes

Researchers say photos show UFO
   GULF BREEZE, Fla. (UPI) _ UFO experts are debating the authenticity
of photographs of an eerie cylindrical object glowing in the night sky
over the Florida Panhandle town of Gulf Breeze.
   More than 135 residents in the past 18 months have reported seeing
a strange craft hovering in skies over Gulf Breeze, the Tampa Tribune
reported Sunday.
   One resident, asked to be identified only as "Ed," has produced
photographs showing a cylindrical craft ringed with lights and what may
be windows.
   The pictures have sparked a battle between two UFO investigating
groups.
   The Mutual UFO Network, a 20-year-old group of scientists and
layman researchers, believes Ed's pictures are real. The Center for UFO
Studies, a non-profit group founded by the late astronomer J. Allen
Hynek, does not.
   The network cites a 90-page study by Navy physicist Bruce Maccabee,
who says Ed could not have fabricated such convincing photographs.
   "A professional magician would have a difficult time doing this,"
he said.
   The center relies on its researchers and on Robert Nathan, of
NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. He said the photos show glaring
inconsistencies typical of double exposures.
   Mark Rodeghier of the Center for UFO Studies said the case has
"deteriorated into a shouting match" between the two groups, and that
the network's endorsement of the pictures biased Maccabee's study.
   "Except those intimately connected with the network, 90 percent of
serious UFO researchers think (the) Gulf Breeze (case) is a hoax,"
Rodeghier said.
   But residents of the town of 6,000 think they know what they saw.
   "I was exhilarated," said Brenda Pollak, a City Council member
who claimed to see a large, lighted craft twice in one night last spring
over Pensacola Bay. "I can tell you now _ for every one person who has
reported seeing the craft, there are 10 who talk about it but don't want
anyone to know."


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Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: UFO Sighting: Gulf Breeze, Florida 07/26/91
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 19:57:28 GMT
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The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

Date: 08-04-91  00:25
From: John Hicks
Subj: Gulf Breeze news

  In an article in the August 1 Gulf Breeze Sentinel, Vicki Lyons of MUFON
wrote that about a dozen people saw the "red light" UFO hovering over the
Bob Sikes (Three Mile) Bridge at about 9:15 p.m. Friday, July 26.
  The sighting lasted a few minutes, and ended when the UFO brightened to
white and disappeared.

  Believe it or not, Ed Walters was driving across the bridge at
approximately that time.

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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Gulf Breeze Newsclipping 10/30/90
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:02:33 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 95
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The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

**************************************************************
UFO REPORT POLITICAL, OFFICIAL SAYS
By Craig Myers
NEWS JOURNAL (TUESDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990)
**************************************************************
A report that Gulf Breeze resident Ed Walters may have faked
photographs of UFOs is designed to hurt Walters' campaign for
city council, a Mutual UFO Network official said Monday.

Dan Wright, who heads UFO investigations for MUFON, said
Monday the organization is " concerned that one of our
investigators may have taken sides in a political dispute."

Walters co-wrote " The Gulf Breeze Sightings," which recounts
encounters he claims to have had with UFOs between November
1987 and March 1988. He is a candidate for City Council in
Gulf Breeze on the Nov. 6 ballot.

Walters would not comment Monday, but said earlier this month
that his alleged UFO encounters were not an issue in the
campaign.

The issue resurfaced Friday after Rex and Carol Salisberry,
investigators for the UFO network, released a summary of a
preliminary report that said Walters likely faked at least two
photographs reproduced in his book.

The Salisberrys, MUFON investigators of the year in 1989-1990,
were asked in July to reopen the case.

The new probe was prompted by the discovery of a model in the
attic of Walters' former home in Gulf Breeze. The plastic foam
and drafting paper model strongly resembled a drawing of an
alleged UFO in Walters' book.

In another incident, a former Gulf Breeze man said he helped
Walters fake UFO photos at least once in 1987.

On Monday, Wright said that Gulf Breeze Mayor Ed Gray, a
longtime critic of Walters, may have "pressed" the Salisberrys
to release their report before election.

" It is possible that Gray may have found a sympathetic ear,"
Wright said in a telephone interview from Lansing, Mich.,
where he lives.

But Salisberry said that Gray had absolutely no influence on
the report's release. " I could care less about the City
Council race," Salisberry said. " I don't live in Gulf
Breeze."

Gray would not comment on Wright's allegations.

In his report, Salisberry questioned the legitimacy of the
so-called " road shot " which shows a UFO hovering over a
road.

The reflection of the spacecraft, which should be flat,
actually is at an angle that does not match the road's
surface. The triangular shape of the reflection also does not
match the round light source, Salisberry said.

Salisberry said that he told MUFON International Director Walt
Andrus in September that he believed Walters faked some, if
not all, of his photos. It was then, he said, that he learned
some MUFON members were trying to discredit him.

Before the personal attacks began, he said he decided to make
public his findings. " I told them we would not tolerate being
discredited," he said. " We were already being categorized as
debunkers They have a history of shooting the messenger."

Wright on Monday said evidence still indicates Walters' photos
are legitimate and that MUFON has no interest in the City
Council race.

" If we find Rex didn't take into consideration all factors
and didn't make all the necessary contacts, we may have to
determine it is an incomplete report," Wright said.
**************************************************************


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Salisberry interview, article, Walters hoax
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:03:56 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 988
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3124 alt.conspiracy:8620 sci.skeptic:17700




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

                      *  THE PRESS RELEASE *

Carol and Rex Salisberry
State Section Directors for
Pensacola MUFON

Interview, questions and answers bearing on recent
investigation of the Walters' Case.
**************************************************************
We wish to release to the public a progress report on our work
involving the reopening of the Walters' UFO case. First, two
voice stress analyses have been made on a tape recording of
the telephone conversation among Mayor Ed Gray, Chief Jerry
Brown, Craig Meyers, Mark Curtis and Tommy Smith on 15 June
1990. These analyses both indicate that Tommy Smith was
telling the truth in all respects regarding the allegations
which he made concerning Mr. Walters and the UFO case. Second,
we have investigated the writing on the model which Mr. Menzer
found in the attic above his garage and have determined that
the paper used in the model could not have been made from a
house plan that Mr. Walters claims to have drawn in September
1989 for the Lynn Thomas family. This second point has been
independently verified by others including Mr. Phil Klass.
Third, we have conducted analyses of Photos 14 and 19 in the
Walters' book and have concluded that there is a very high
probability that the reflections shown in these photos could
not have been made by a hovering object as described by Mr.
Walters and validated by Dr. Maccabee. It is a virtual
impossibility for the reflections to have occurred as depicted
in the photos. It is, however, very easy to have created these
photos by using a small model and double exposure camera
techniques as demonstrated by Mr. Mark Curtis of WEAR-TV. With
Photos 14 & 19 shown to be probable fakes, scientific and
intellectual integrity dictate that other photos depicting the
same models should be considered as highly suspect. This
includes the " Believer Bill ", the " Jane " and the so called
" Tommy Smith " photos ( the voice stress analyses indicate
that Tommy Smith did not take these photos).

Question: Are you making this disclosure on behalf of MUFON,
or is MUFON intending to release your information through a
press conference or other means?

Answer: We are providing this information of our own volition
and are not speaking for MUFON. We don't know at this point
what MUFON intends to do.
**************************************************************
Question: Why are you making this disclosure without sanction
of MUFON?

Answer: Over the past several weeks, many people have advised
us of their opinions that MUFON will not acknowledge or
release any information from our investigation which tends to
disprove the Walters' case. WE have continued to believe in
the objectivity of MUFON and believed that they would accept
the results of our work at face value. However, in the past
few days we have come to believe that others may be correct in
their assessment of the situation.
**************************************************************
Question: What has caused you to change your opinion in this
regard?

Answer: We first provided Mr. Andrus, International Director
of MUFON, with our preliminary analysis by telephone on 9
Sept, 1990. At that time we described for him a simple
demonstration that he could perform to convince himself that
we were correct. It was decided at the time to seek additional
analysis from other experts to support our own work. We did
this and sent Mr. Andrus an Interim Report on 23 Sept, 1990
which contained additional expert analysis confirming our
conclusions. We talked with Mr. Andrus by telephone in late
September and learned that he had not even done the simple
demonstration that we had suggested to him. This tends to make
us believe that he is not giving serious consideration to our
analysis or the supporting analysis of other experts. Also, we
have now learned that elements of MUFON are attempting to
discredit us as " debunkers " which we deem eminently unfair
in consideration of the large amount of time and effort we
have devoted to objective reassessment of this case.
**************************************************************
Question: Can you describe the simple demonstration for us and
could our readers do the demonstration for themselves?

Answer: Yes, it is very easy to do. It is basically a
demonstration to show what the reflection in Photo 19 should
look like when reflected from the flat road surface. The data
to use can be taken from Dr. Maccabee's article in the 1988
MUFON Symposium Proceedings. These are as follows: distance
from the camera to the object is 185 (+/- 5) feet; the
diameter of the light ring at the bottom of the object is 7.5
feet; the height of the object above the road is about 3 feet;
and the height of the camera is about 5 feet. You then set up
a scale of 1 inch = 1 foot to do your demonstration. For
example.... Cut a circle of white paper 7.5 inches in
diameter, place the white circle on a flat service and move
away 185 inches to simulate the camera location, then raise
your eye level to 5 inches above the elevation of the white
circle, and you can see how the reflection should look. If you
look at this photograph which we took of our own demonstration
you can see that the reflection should appear as a narrow
horizontal line and not as the much taller reflection as shown
in Photo 19 of Walters' book. Walters' photo depicts the
reflection as " hanging in mid air " instead of flat on the
road as should be expected. It could be argued that the
Walters' camera might have been higher than the 5 feet which
we have used, but we have shown that the camera height would
need to have been about 45 feet in the air to produce the
reflection in Photo 19. If you will look at photo 19 in
Walters' book, you can readily see that the higher elevation
was not possible. Also, here is another photo which we took of
our demonstration to show the results of the higher camera
height, and you can see that the image of the reflection now
approximates those in Walters' photos. This next photo shows
the result if the road surface had been slanted up by about 14
degrees under the object. You can again see that this
approximates the reflections in Walters' photos. The point
here is that there is a strong indication that a small model
and double exposure camera techniques were used by Walters' to
take photos 14 and 19. There is strong support for this in the
work done by Mark Curtis of WEAR TV. He made the same mistake
in setting up his model which produces the same " impossible
reflection " results as shown in Walters' photos.

Your readers can get an idea of what we are talking about here
by observing the reflections of car headlights on the road as
they drive at night, or by noting shadows on the ground in the
early morning or late evening.
**************************************************************
Question: You said that you have also done a mathematical
analysis, what does this show.

Answer: Since the three-dimensional appearance of the
purported reflection is converted to two dimensions on film,
we calculated what that two-dimensional presentation to the
camera should be. The horizontal component is essentially
unchanged because of the geometry of the scene, but the
vertical presentation is calculated by trigonometric
relationships as shown here. You can see that the vertical
dimension that the camera would see is about 2.5 inches. You
can compare this to the measured and calculated value of 22.5
inches from photo 19 and readily see that vertical
presentation to the camera  in Walter's photos is roughly 9
times " taller " than it should be. This should present
conclusive evidence that photo 19 was faked. The same
conclusion can be made for photo 14 since it is essentially
identical to photo 19 except for the geographic location and
the use of different models. With these two photos shown to be
fakes, all other photos which show the same model, should also
be suspected of being fakes. This would include the " Believer
Bill " and " Jane " photographs as well as the so called "
Tommy Smith " photos. By the way, an independent analysis
conducted of the purported " Smith " photos by a Ph.D. level
photogramatrist indicates his conclusion that, " The sequence
looks systematic and staged with a model at 6-9 feet. " This
tends to support Tommy Smith's allegations that Mr. Walters
had taken those photographs of a model.
**************************************************************
Question: What about the other experts which you claim have
validated your conclusions?

Answer: We have had an analysis done by a local Analytical
Physicist who hold a Masters Degree in Physics and does these
types of analyses for his employer. He has constructed a
rigorous mathematical model to show what the expected
reflection should be under almost any set of conditions. When
Maccabee's data, which I mentioned earlier, are substituted
into this model the results are essentially equivalent to our
own, i.e. that the reflections in Walters' photos 14 & 19 are
about 9 times taller than they should be, which again
indicates that the reflections in Walters' photos are
suspended in air and not off of the road or field as one would
expect. The conclusions of this analyst are, " A direct
measurement from photo 19 reveals that r=4. This is physically
impossible, in view of the above analysis. Therefore photo 19
is a physically impossible representation of reality and is
faked. The above analysis is rigorous and leaves no room for
doubt. It assumes only cylindrical symmetry of light emissions
with respect to the object axes of symmetry and the accuracy
of Maccabees's calculations." ( r in this conclusion refers to
the aspect ratio of the horizontal divided by the vertical
dimensions.)

We have another analysis done by a Ph.D. level
photogrammatrist who is a friend. His results agree closely
with those of ours which we demonstrated earlier. His
conclusion is, " The reflection in Gulf Breeze photo 19 is
inconsistent with the reported events." We will not use his
analysis because of his need for anonymity.

We have also shared our work with Dr. Robert Nathan who is
doing an independent analysis of his own at our request. He
has expressed his agreement with our analysis and conclusions
verbally over the telephone, but because of his busy schedule,
he has not yet completed his own analysis.

We have also consulted with another Ph.D. level
photogrammatrist who has done previous analyses of the
Walters' photos. He has expressed verbal agreement with our
analysis with the comment " I wish that I had thought of that
aspect".

Arguments may be advanced that a non uniform illumination
might be able to produce the reflections as shown in the
photos 14 & 19. The experienced analysts mentioned before
assure us that such non-uniform illumination should still
produce an elliptical pattern for the reflection. However, the
brightness of the reflection might be " spotty " ( i.e.
brighter in some places and dimmer in others. ) Also, The
diamond shape of the reflections in these two photos is not a
normal expectation and is probably the result of error in
planning how the reflection should look when the model was
photographed for double exposure process.

**************************************************************
Question: Dr. Bruce Maccabee has done considerable work on
these photos and seems to have concluded that they are real
UFOs. Your analysis and conclusions seem to be in conflict
with his. How do you explain that?

Answer: Numerous experts have applauded Dr. Maccabee on his
analytical work, however, many of them have questioned his
assumptions and his logic ised in drawing his conclusions. For
example, on page 145 of the 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings,
Maccabee states " The reflection in the road below the object
is unusual because of its shape and brilliance. It is not
round, but more diamond shaped, indicating that the object was
emanating a non-circular pattern. The reflection beneath the
object in Photo 14 ( Figure 19 ) is also diamond shaped." Here
he draws the conclusion that the circular source ( to which he
admits on the same page ) made a diamond shaped reflection,
which as an optical physicist, he should know to be
impossible. He goes on to say " ( From a hoax point of view
this is surprising because a model with a bulb inside would
very probably give a circular illumination pattern.)" This
sentence indicates that Maccabee assumed that one needed to
put a bulb inside of the model to create a hoax. He
conveniently ignored other hoax scenarios, such as the one
used by Mark Curtis ( and probably by Mr. Walters ) wherein
the shape of the " reflection" was designed into the model set
up. Maccabee goes on to say " The brilliance of the reflection
is also surprising, considering that it was reflecting off a
(wet) road." We find it surprising that Dr. Maccabee did not
address this incongruity in more detail since it is known that
he and Mr. Charles Flannigan conducted experiments in this
regard. When you consider that the surface of the road ( Black
top) is highly absorptive, it should be obvious to even the
casual observer that the intensity of the " reflection" is
much too great when compared to the intensity of the source.
We find it surprising that Dr. Maccabee did not address some
of these important considerations which lead directly to
conclusions that Photo 19 is a fake.

Another incongruity in Dr. Maccabee's work can be found in the
last paragraph on page 169 of the 1988 MUFON Symposium
Proceedings. In this paragraph, Dr. Maccabee explains the
difficulties that Mr. Walters would have in photographing a
model in Photos 36 L&R with the time elements involved and
with witnesses nearby in the parking lot. He ignores the fact
that Mr. Walters' wife, Frances, was with him and could have
greatly reduced the difficulties. In fact, it would have been
a rather simple process for two people as pointed out
elsewhere by Maccabee in the article. Maccabee also fails to
report that Frances did not emerge from the bushes at the same
time as Mr. Walters and had ample time to have hidden away the
model and other paraphernalia involved. Other witnesses have
confirmed that Frances did indeed remain concealed by the
bushes for some period of time after Mr. Walters appeared with
the photos. Dr. Maccabee has also asserted that rigorous
proceedures were used to record the numbers of the backs of
the photos to track them and obviate the possibility of
substitution. These assertions have been refuted by Mr.
Charles Flannigan and the witnesses who were present at the
time. None of the witnesses recorded the numbers!

The public may not be aware that Dr. Maccabee was paid for his
work concerning the Walters' case. At this point, we have not
been able to ascertain when he was paid, how much, who paid
him, when he was paid, or what he was expected to do for the
pay. With this in mind, we have excluded him from our
investigation team to avoid accusations of bias in our
results. Now, with our conclusions in conflict with those of
Dr. Maccabee, we expect the accusations anyhow.

We understand that Dr. Maccabee and Mr. Robert Oechsler have
done analyses on the so called " Tommy Smith " photos. We
requested the results of their analyses as early as July, but
neither shared them with us, which we find strange. Along the
same line, many investigators around the country have shared
their results with us, but we have not been able to
reciprocate in kind because of our loyalties to MUFON.

We do not want this misconstrued as any kind of personal
attack on Dr. Maccabee for that is not our intent. He has
written and spoken profusely on this case and we simply
disagree with many of his assuptions and conclusions.
**************************************************************
Question: What have you determined about the model found in
the Walters' former home?

Answer: We have statements in writing from the current owners
of the home and we have interviewed them on several occasions.
We, as well as other investigators, have determined that the
house plan segment used to build the mid-section of the model
could not have come from the plans which were drawn in
September 1989 as claimed by Mr. Walters. Those plans specify
that the exterior of the home to be " Sinergy " whereas the
plans in the model specify a brick exterior. The address for
the home to be built from the plans drawn by Mr. Walters in
September 1989 would have been 700 Jamestown Dr. whereas the
address on the plans in the model appears to be 712 Jamestown
Dr. The residence at 712 Jamestown DR. was apparently built by
Mr. Walters in early 1987. This represents a direct
contradiction to the claims of Mr. Walters that he drew the
plans found in the model in September 1989.

Mr. Walters has also publicly stated that the model was in
plain sight in the attic when Mr. Menzer found it. This is a
contradiction to Mr. Menzer's statement in which he indicates
that he did not notice the model until he moved a considerable
amount of loose insulation aside. The question begs to be
asked, " Did Walters have foreknowledge of the location and
relative visibility of the model in the attic prior to its
discovery by Mr. Menzer?"

If you look on the bottom of page 28 in Walters'  book where
he provides a description of the "UFO" that he saw: " There
were also some diamond shapes between some of the large black
squares and, unseen on the photos, there were definitely
horizontal lines going around the main body. ( see drawing
following page 64)". The drawings following page 64 do not
show any horizontal lines except for the seams between the
various sections. In the book, " photo 14, light-blasted and
enhanced for detail, enlargement" show these same seams, so
Walters could not have meant them when he described the
horizontal lines. However, the model found in Menzer's atic
have neatly drawn horizontal lines around the main body of the
model, which is the only place that we can find the horizontal
lines as described by Mr. Walters. This seems to indicate that
Mr. Walters knows more about the model than he has admitted.

It is also noteworthy that 12 and 14 in Walters' book bear a
marked resemblance to the model found in the Menzer's attic.
**************************************************************
Questioon: What about the witnesses that have come forward and
have claimed to have seen what Ed Walters has photographed?

Answer: We agree that a few witnesses came forward in late
1987 and in 1988, after they had seen the photos, and claimed
to have seen a similar UFO. It is not our purpose to discredit
those witnesses. We examined their case file reports and news
accounts, and we have been able to interview most of them in
person or over the phone. Under the conditions of observation
(altitude, time of day, length of sighting, angle of view
etc.) and general descriptions given, what they saw was
similar in some cases but not an exact match to the Walters'
photos. For example, we interviewed Charles and Doris Sommerby
recently. They said that the UFO that they saw in Nov. of 1987
was at least 150ft. across, had one row of round portholes
with bright lights shining out of them, had a large lighted
dome on the top that covered most of the top-half of the UFO,
and it had a circle of smaller bright lights on the bottom.
According to Dr. Maccabee's calculations the UFO that Mr.
Walters photographed was only 12 to 25 ft across, had 2 rows
of square portholes, had a small light on the top, and a solid
ring of light on the bottom. Because they saw it on the same
day that Walters reported photographing his UFO, they assumed
it was the same. We have found that other witnesses did not
see all the same details that are included in the photos, and
because they made their report after they had seen a photo, a
psychological principal known as "gestalt" may have influenced
their report.

(The MUFON Investigators Manual cautions against contaminating
the witnesses by showing them photographs of other sightings
prior to their own independent description.) But it is also
important to recognize that witness testimony is supportive,
but does not prove the authenticity of the Walters' photos.
These two issues must be separated in the final analysis.


**************************************************************
Question: What about the lie detector tests that Mr. Walters
claims that he has passed?

Answer: The Lie Detector Tests-- A misleading Issue.

In the Aug. 16, 1990, Gulf Breeze Sentinel, Ed Walters wrote
an article entitled " Tommy Smith's Statements Questioned." In
this article Ed writes: On June 19 I was challenged by Tommy's
father to take a lie detector test. On that same evening I
took the test and passed. Ed Walters has now taken 4 seperate
tests with three different examiners and passed them all. My
wife Frances and Hank Boland were also tested previously."

In an interview with Ed and Frances in Sept. 1990 in which
Charles Flannigan and the Salisberrys were present, we asked
Frances if she had ever taken a lie detector test and she
said, "No"

She explained that a taped interview had been tested by MUFON
without their specific approval. Two tapes were submitted by
Bob Oeschler to an examiner in Maryland. The examiner stated:
" The way the interviews were done and the type of information
discussed does not give the examiner the verbal material
necessary for him to be able to say if these individuals are
being completely truthful with the interviewer.

This examiner does find two areas in Mr. Hank's ( Hank Boland)
interview that showed meaningful reaction which indicates a
problem with his answer. The answer he gives regarding the
reason for the object disappearing when Ed saw (Hank). Mr.
Hanks said that the craft communicates through Ed and can
sense things through Ed. The other area is where he does not
want to sign the form with his true name."

On June 19 Ed had himself tested with the Psychological Stress
Evalutator, voice stress test by Robert Lauland in New
Orleans. ( It is interesting to note that a test is only as
good as its questions, or that the questions will determine
the outcome, pass or fail) Here are a few of the questions
that were asked: " Is it true that you did not kill a circular
area of grass on the soccer field of G.B. High by using a
trampoline?" A better question might have been, Did you tell
Tommy Smith that you killed the grass with a trampoline? The
real issue is whether or not he told Tommy certain things. (
see additional questions below)

In Feb., 1988 Mr. Charles Flannigan arranged to have Ed tested
by a reputable examiner. Mr. Flannigan and other investgators
created a list of questions that the examiner could use. Ed
chose not to be tested under these supervised conditions.
Instead he went by himself, on 2 occasions, to another
polygrapher and paid for a polygraph. The questions that the
investigators prepared were not used by the examiner, and no
one from MUFON accompanied him to the testing site or observed
the conditions of testing. This examiner stated that, " He
(ED) claims to desire no personal gain or renumeration from
these sightings. " ( However, Ed and Frances did have a book
in preparation at this time and were actively seeking
publication, which usually means money.)

It would be desirable for Ed, Frances, their son Danny, Hank
Boland, and Tommy Smith to all take supervised polygraph tests
to insure the validity of the results. So far the Smith family
has agreed to these conditions if the Walters family would
agree also. The Walters family has so far refused.
**************************************************************
Questions from Lauland voice stress analysis June 19, 1990 and
observations on these questions:

1... Is it true that you did not make the UFO model that was
found at 612 Silverthorn Drive in Gulf Breeze, Fl, ? Ans: Yes
( observation: Someone could have made the model for Ed, and
he could be answering this question truthfully)

2... Is it true that you did not have a model of a UFO at 612
Silverthorn Dr. in Gulf Breeze, Fl. Ans: Yes. ( observation:
If Ed had more than one model of UFOs at the house, this
answer could be truthful but misleading.)

3... Is it true that you do not know who made the UFO model
found on Silverthorn Drive in Gulf Breeze, Fl. Answer: Yes.
(observation: The question has been skillfully juggled from
the previous pattern by substituting ON for AT and omitting
the house number. Ed could be answering truthfully in that the
model was not found on the street, but inside the house.)

4... Is it true that you have never taken stereo camera photos
of any airplane landing any time in your life? Answer: Yes.
(observation: Ed could be answering this question truthfully
since it is the wrong question, The question should have read,
" Is it true That you told Tommy Smith that you went out and
took a picture of an airplane landing at night, held the
camera sideways, " since that was the allegation made by Tommy
Smith)

5... Is it true that you did not kill a circular area of grass
on the soccer field of Gulf Breeze High School by using a
trampoline? Answer: (observation: again this is the wrong
question. Tommy Smith's allegation was, " If I remember
correctly, he told me that he turned a small trampoline upside
down on it for a while and jumped up and down on it."
Obviously the question does not address the allegation.

Mr. Lauland states in his opening paragraph, " ...and the
questions were reworded for clarification..." (This gave
Walters the opportunity to carefully word the questions so
that he could answer truthfully without providing any
meaningful results.)
**************************************************************
Question: What do you foresee will be the official MUFON
position to your disclosure of this information?

Answer: We really don't know, but we feel that we have an
obligation to share the results of our efforts with the
citizens of Gulf Breeze and the Pensacola area. Remember that
we too were believers of the Walters case and only changed our
minds after the preponderance of evidence indicated that there
was a hoax involved. We hope that MUFON will consider our
evidence and support our conclusions. We sincerely hope that
MUFON will continue to be an objective investigative agency of
the UFO phenomena.
**************************************************************
Question: You probably know that Mr. Walters is running for
the office of City Council member. What effect do you forsee
that your disclosure will have on his campaign?

Answer: We are not residents of Gulf Breeze and hence have no
interest in the elections of the city. Our timing on the
release of this information is precipitated by the lnowledge
that some elements of MUFON are attempting to discredit us. We
also would like to bring the investigation to a close because
we have many important things to do that have been deferred
because of our work on the case. We even gave up our usual
summer vacation because of it.
**************************************************************
Question: Is there anything else that you would like to add?

Answer: Yes, we would like to repeat that the validity of the
hundreds of other UFO related events which have been reported
in the area is not affected by this disclosure and the outcome
of the Walters case. We still remain students and
investigators of the UFO phenomena and are grateful to the
many witnesses who have shared their experience with us. We
hope that they will continue to do so.
**************************************************************
**************************************************************

                     *THE PRINTED NEWS ARTICLE*

PENSACOLA NEWS JOURNAL
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 27, 1990
..............................
INVESTIGATORS DOUBT UFO AUTHOR
BY CRAIG MYERS
NEWS JOURNAL
..............................

Two investigators for the MUTUAL UFO Network said Friday  they
believe Gulf Breeze author Ed. Walters faked some of the
photos of UFOs that appear in his book.

" We believe that UFOs exist," said Rex and Carol Salisberry
of Navarre of their study of several of Walter's photos. " We
entered this investigation with a natural and favorable bias
toward the Walter's case, " but " our investigation and
analysis lend to the conclusion that several, if not all of
the photos are probable hoaxes."

Walters, who co-wrote " The Gulf Breeze Sightings" with his
wife Frances, maintains the photos are real and that they were
taken during numerous encounters between November 1987 and
March 1988.

Walters has appeared on numerous radio and television shows,
including " Unsolved Mysteries " and the Oprah Winfrey Show,
to recount his experiences with UFOs.

He was reported to be out of town Friday and could not be
reached for comment.

In July the couple was named " Investigators of the Year " at
a MUFON Symposium in Pensacola.

Walt Andrus, MUFON's international director, said Friday that
his organization is not yet ready to give its stamp of
approval to the Salisberry's four month investigation of the
photos.

" I don't know how they arrived at that decision." Andrus said
from his office in Sequin, Texas. " It is certainly premature.
He has no business talking to reporters. It has never been
cleared through here. He can't make representations for the
organizations."

Andrus, who has for two years endorsed the Walters case,
appointed Salisberry in July to take a second look at the case
after questions surfaced about the credibility of Walter's
photos.

The first question arose after a model was found in the
Walter's former residence in Gulf Breeze in March. The
Styrofoam and drafting paper model was found in the attic of
the home and strongly resembled a drawing Walter's made of one
of his UFO sightings.

The second question arose when Tommy Smith, formerly of Gulf
Breeze, said in July that he witnessed Walter's fake UFO
photos. Smith said Walters asked him to take some faked UFO
photos to the Gulf Breeze newspaper and claim they were real.

But Andrus on Friday said Smith is lying and the UFO model was
hidden in the attic by someone who wants to discredit Walters.

"Tommy Smith can't prove any of his statements- they are
outlandish lies," Andrus said.

The Salisberrys said Smith's testimony and the model
contributed to their conclusion, but more convincing was an
analysis of Walter's so-called " road shot " that shows a UFO
hovering over a road.

Salisberry said the reflection of the spacecraft, which should
be flat, actually is at an angle that does not match the
road's surface. The triangular shape of the reflection also
does not match the round light source on the bottom of the
craft, he said.

The Salisberrys said the photo and a second photo probably was
created by a double-exposure-- a process by which a model is
photographed and the image is exposed again onto the same
frame of film.

" With these photos reassessed as probable hoaxes, the other
photos... should be considered as highly suspect, " Salisberry
wrote in the preliminary report.

Seven MUFON members investigated the sightings in 1988 and
concluded Walter's story was true. The Salisberrys were not
among the original investigators, but joined MUFON in November
1988.

Andrus said that while the Salisberrys are good investigators,
they cannot yet speak for MUFON.

" They ( the Salisberrys ) do not have grounds to arrive at
that conclusion until it is submitted to us. We will have to
look at their facts," Andrus said.

The Salisberrys have not yet submitted their report to MUFON.

Phil Klass, a contributing editor to Aviation Week & Space
Technology magazine and a longtime Walters critic, said Andrus
is too " proud and stubborn " to accept the report.

" I think the Salisberrys should be commended for being
willing to change their earlier opinion," said Klass.

But Dr. Bruce Maccabee, a photographic analyst who has
defended Walter's photos. said the road reflection does not
discredit the photo.

Maccabee said his analysis of the photo shows light from
beneath the object was projected at an angle-like car
headlights shinning ahead of a car on a wet road.

Maccabee said Friday he still is open-minded about the
Walter's sightings, but said it would take more convincing
evidence than Salisberry's report to convince him of a hoax.

" Nothing I have seen has changed my mind," Maccabee said.

Salisberry said his conclusion on Walters' photo does not
shake his own belief in UFOs. And he said his report won't end
the Walters' debate.

" The problem with Walters' story isn't a UFO problem, it is a
human problem". Salisberry said. " If the Walters' case is
typical of most UFO cases, the debate will probably go on for
years in spite of any evidence pro or con."


**************************************************************
**************************************************************
               *THE INTERIM REPORT TO MUFON*

From:        Carol A. & Rex C. Salisberry    23 September 1990
             Navarre Beach, Fl. 32566-7235

To:          Walter H. Andrus, Jr.
             103 Oldtowne Road
             Sequin, Tx 78155-4099

Subject:     Interim Report on the reopening of the Walters'
UFO Case


Background: The investigators, Carol & Rex Salisberry had not
been involved with the prior investigation of the Walter's
Case and had accepted the MUFON assessment of its validity
without close personal scrutiny. When Tommy Smith came forward
with his allegations on 15 June 1990, the investigators
doubted them and, in fact made several public statements in
support of the Walter's Case. After the press conferences on
19 June 1990, wherein Mr. Charles Flannigan ( Florida MUFON
State Director) announced the reopening of the Walters' Case
and the commitment by MUFON to finding the truth, we were
asked by Mr. Flannigan to assist him in the next phase of the
investigation. During a meeting of Mr. Walter Andrus, MUFON
International Director, Mr. Flannigan, and Mr. Salisberry on
Thursday 5 July 1990, Mr. Andrus expressed his capacity to
accept the result that the Walter's Case was a total fraud if
that was proven to be the case. We deemed this to be a
critical commitment on his part , because we didn't want the
results of our work to " be swept under the rug" if they were
contrary to the then prevailing views of many MUFON officials
and others. Upon receiving this commitment from Mr. Andrus we
proceeded with the investigation with an open mind and with
the greatest degree of objectivity that we could muster. Our
previous, personal supportive views of the case had to be
subjugated so as not to influence the fact finding process.

Tentative Conclusions: Although there is much work remaining
to be done in the investigation of this case, we have arrived
at  result that we deem should be brought to the attention of
MUFON before it is uncovered and released to the public by
outside interests. On 9 September 1990, our analysis of Photo
19 of the Walters' case indicated a very high probability that
the reflection on the road could not have been made by an
object hovering over the road as described by Mr. Walters and
validated by Dr. Maccabee. It is a virtual physical
impossibility for the reflection to occur as depicted in Photo
19. Perhaps one of the easiest methods of producing the photo
is by use of a small model (photographed at close range) and
double exposure techniques as demonstrated by Mr. Mark Curtis
of WEAR TV. Mr. Curtis and his associate, a biologist and
model maker, have been harshly criticized by their critics. We
were allowed to witness their effort and know that their
intent was to demonstrate that the process was feasible and
their purpose was not to duplicate the Walters' photo. (It is
interesting that they too introduced the fatal flaw of
creating a reflection which was not possible under the
circumstances.) The detailed account of our analysis of Photo
19 is shown in Attachment 1.

Mr. Flannigan and Mr. Salisberry telephoned Mr. Andrus on
Sunday evening 9 September 1990 to inform him of the results
of the analysis. During the conversation it was suggested that
two independent experts be contacted to confirm the validity
of our analysis. Those two experts were provided the details
of the analysis and have orally responded with their
confirmations of the validity of the results.

With Photo 19 shown to be a probable hoax, Photo 14 is
likewise categorized since it is essentially identical to
Photo 19 except for geographic location. With these two photos
reassessed as probable hoaxes, the other photos which depict
an image of the same model should be considered as highly
suspect. Intellectual and scientific integrity then dictate
that the suspect photos be downgraded in the overall
assessment of the validity of the case.

Another aspect of the Walters' case which has come into
question is whether or not he knew how to take double
exposures prior to 11 November 1987. Mr. S. Peter Neumann, of
WEAR TV and a resident of Gulf Breeze, has informed us that
Mr. Walters had told him and his wife much earlier than 11
November 1987 that Walters sometimes used double exposure
photography to amuse the young people who attended the parties
in the Walters' home. Mr. Neumann has declined to provide us
with a written and signed statement to this effect, but
indicated that he would provide the same information to anyone
calling by telephone. Additionally, the young people whom we
have interviewed relate that Mr. Walters consistently "had a
camera in his hand" at the various activities at which he was
present. These young people also confirmed that Mr. Walters
sometimes took what appeared to be trick photos and that they
could not understand how it was done.

Discussion: It is emphasized that the reassessment of the
Walters' Case should not be cause to believe or disbelieve the
hundreds of other UFO related experiences in the Pensacola
area. Each reported case had been evaluated on its own merits
and should stand as reported. It is even quite probable that
the Walters family have had experiences with UFO related
phenomena; however, this is difficult to assess at this point
because of the previous preoccupation with the photos which
may have distorted the data.

Recommendation: MUFON should release the results of our
analysis to the public as soon as practical. We consider this
important to maintain our integrity as an objective UFO
investigative organization.

                           Attachment One

Preliminary Analysis of Photo 19 of the Walters' UFO Case made
by Rex C. Salisberry on 9 September 1990.

ASSUMPTIONS:
     (1)  The object and the light ring at the bottom are
circular (source - Mccabee, 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings).
     (2)  The distance from the camera to the object is 185
(+/- 5) feet (source - Maccabee, page 145 of 1988 MUFON
Symposium Proceedings)
     (3)  The diameter of the light ring at the bottom is 7.5
feet  (source - Maccabee, same as #2).
     (4)  The tilt of the object away from the observer is
about 13 degrees ( source - Dr. Willy Smith, page 14 of his "
The Gulf Breeze Saga")
     (5)  The height of the object above the road is about 3
feet
(source - Maccabee, same as #2).
     (6)  The height of the camera was about 5 feet.
     (7)  The reflection on the Flat and relatively level road
should have a round or slightly oval shape. Regardless of the
shape of the reflection, since the cross dimension of the
light is roughly equal to the cross dimension of the
reflection, fore-and-aft dimensions of the light and the
reflection should also correspond.

APPROACH:
     It seemed to be a prudent scientific approach to
determine what the reflection should appear to be under the
given assumptions and then compare that result with the
photograph.

ANALYSIS:
     (1) Since the three-dimensional appearance of the
reflection is converted to two dimensions on film, the two
dimensional presentation to the camera should be determined.
The horizontal presentation is unchanged because of the
geometry of the scene, however the height and depth
presentations are converted to a vertical only presentation as
follows:
                        5ft-> |
                              |90__________> (Angle A )
                                   185ft

Angle A = arctan 5/185 = arctan (0.027027) = 1.54815 degrees

The fore-and-aft dimension (x,) of the reflection on the road
is given by                                ^  <-7.5ft
                                /90
                              /_____________13 degrees
                                     x,
x, = (7.5 feet)/(cosine 13 degrees)= 7.6972813 feet
The vertical dimension (y,) as it would appear to the camera
is then given by
                   |
              5ft  |                ^y,
                   |                |
                   |90_______________7.6972813______>Angle A =
1.54815
                                185ft
y, = ( 7.6972813 feet)( sin 1.54815 deg.) = 0.2979574 feet =
2.49549 inches.

(2) Computation of the comparable vertical dimension from the
photo facing page 129 of Walter's book is as follows:

     The ratio of the vertical dimension to the horizontal
dimension is approximately 1 to 4 as measured on the
photograph.
     Then by proportion      Yz / 7.6972813 feet = 1/4
                  Yz = (7.6972813feet)/4 = 1.9243203 feet
which is over 9 times greater than the expected value computed
in (1)

(3) If the road surface was sloped up abruptly below the
object at an angle of about 14 degrees, the presentation of
the reflection as shown on Photo 19 could have been attained.





                              .   |
                         .        |1.9243203 feet
                   .              |
     Angle  B  <________________90|
                 7.6972813 feet

Angle B = arctan (1.9243203)/(7.7972813)= 14 degrees
(This computation is not precise but is a close enough
approximation upon which to draw a conclusion.)

Since the road is known to not have a 14 degree slope at the
point indicated in the photo, this possibility is ruled out.
However, a similar reflection to the one shown in Photo 19 was
produced by Mark Curtis for WEAR TV which indicates that the
reflection could have been made by using a small model and
double-exposure camera techniques. Mr. Curtis and his
associate made the mistake of slanting the top of their light
pipe and then covering it with thin paper to create the image
for reflection. The fatal flaw produced a similar " fat "
reflection as the one shown in Photo 19.

(4) It is possible that the camera elevation could have been
higher than the 5 feet assumed, so the camera elevation needed
to produce the photo image of the reflection is roughly
calculated by using a proportion as follows:

                    |
                 Y3 |         |< 1.9243203 feet
                    |         |
                    |_________|____________________
                                7.6972813 feet
                    |<.............185 feet.......>|

     Y3/185 feet = 1.9243203 feet/7.6972813 feet

    Y3 = (1.9243203) (185 feet)/7.6972813  = 46.25 feet

Visual inspection of photo 19 indicates that a camera
elevation of 46.25 feet was not possible.

(5) It could also be argued that the fore-and-aft dimension of
the reflection on the road could have been greater than the
approximate 7.7 feet calculated in (1) above. Therefore a
calculation of the fore-and-aft dimension needed to produce
the reflection of Photo 19 is as follows:
                   |     .
              5 ft |          | <1.9243203 feet
                   |90........|.....X2.......
                   |>            185ft     <|
        X2 = (185) ( 1.9243203feet)/5 = 71.2 feet

Again, a visual inspection of Photo 19 rules out this
possibility.

(6) Other arguments could be offered, e.g. heat from the
bottom of the UFO heated the wet road which caused steam to
rise. The reflection on the water droplets in the steam would
then cause the reflection to appear " fatter " than expected.
Such arguments employ circular logic and hence must be
discounted. Additional, the case file does not contain any
evidence to indicate that the road was subjected to heat.

(7) Anyone can perform a simple demonstration to convince
himself of the validity of the above analysis. Construct a
model of the scene using a scale of 1 inch = 1 foot as
follows:
 (1) Cut a 7.5 inch diameter circle from a piece of white
paper.
(2) Place the 7.5 inch circular piece of paper on a flat
surface to represent the reflection on the road.
(3) Move away 185 inches to simulate the distance from the
camera to the object.
(4) View the circle from an elevation of 5 inches above the
elevation of the circle as shown below ( You can cut a peep
hole 5 inches above the bottom edge of a piece of cardboard to
help in setting the proper height above the circle of paper):

               (Eye)>|
                     |5 inches
                     |____________________________()7.5inch
white disc
                            185 inches

One can then easily see that the circle appears as a thin line
and not as the "fat" reflection shown in Photo 19

Conclusions: It is virtually impossible that the object as
described in Walter's book and Maccabee's analyses could have
caused the reflection as shown in Photo 19. A small model and
double exposure camera techniques could have been used to
produce the reflection as described in (3) above.

*END OF RELEASE OF MATERIAL*
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
                         *COMMENTS*

Few UFO cases have captured the attention and interest of both
Ufologists and the general public such as the Gulf Breeze saga
has managed to do. For that reason this information is being
distributed to the public and interested parties for their
evaluation in determining their views toward case.

This information is being supplied in the interest of making
details well known locally in GULF BREEZE available to the
public at large.

The information which is included in this release is as
factual a reproduction of the material just released assuming
no errors in composition under the time restraints in getting
this information made public. Actual copies of all the reports
are available and final decisions should be based on those
documents, as necessary for supporting conjecture. However,
the presented information is as accurate a reproduction as can be
evaluated by the submitter.

10-28-90 Phillip Ray Griffin - Rainbow BBS

--
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/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Sentinel Newspaper UFO Reports
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:05:02 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 68
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3125 alt.conspiracy:8621 sci.skeptic:17701




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The following two articles appeared in the Gulf Breeze Sentinel
on April 26, 1990.  They relate to the continuing UFO sightings
that have been occurring in the Gulf Breeze, FL area over the
past few years. A photograph showing a large "light" in the sky
was also presented.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

SCIENTIST STUDIES SIZE AND DISTANCE OF UFO

   Multiple sightings and photographs help scientists locate the
size and distance of the red glowing object that flew over Gulf
Breeze on Wednesday, April 18, 1990.  Several of the thirty-plus
witnesses who saw the object also video taped the sighting
which further aids the investigation.  Using the 35 mm photos
of the object, the angle of elevation and distance to the object
was calculated to be approximately 3.4 miles when first seen
to approximately 1.7 miles when the object disappeared.

   An optical study is now being conducted by a leading expert
from Washington, D.C., Dr. Bruce Maccabee.  If, upon further
study, the image on the 35 mm negatives proves to be .0625 mm,
then the object was about 15 feet wide.  The brilliant red glow of
the object was also witnessed by officers John Rhodes and Don
Stevens who said, "It was not an airplane or helicopter, it was
a very bright red light at least several miles away. We don't
know what it was."

   Doug Wilkes witnessed the object and later reported to Police
Chief Brown, "I'm ex-military and an expert on helicopter profile;
this was no helicopter or flare or anything that I could identify."

   From April 11 to April 18, there were five multiple witness
sightings involving as many as 60 people, four videotapes and
dozens of photos.

------------------------------------------------------------------

WITNESS DESCRIBES UFO SIGHTING

   Andy O'Daniel came to the Sentinel last week to share his
UFO sighting of Wednesday evening, April 11th.

   Andy said he was just stepping out of the dugout about 9:00 p.m.
when he saw a bright red/orange light rise from the trees
behind left field.

   It went straight up, stopped, then came over the ball park and
stopped again "as if it was checking things out," said Andy.

   Then it moved south out of sight. "I don't know what it was,"
said Andy.  "But I know what it wasn't and it wasn't a plane,
helicopter, or balloon."
==============================================================================


--
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy.sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: 4/20/89 Gulf Breeze Newsclipping
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:07:18 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 245
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3126




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

Strange things are still flying around the small community
of Gulf Breeze, Florida.  Three recent articles on the subject,
published in the Gulf Breeze Sentinel, are presented
below (with permission).

-----------------------------------------------------------------


Gulf Breeze Sentinel, April 20, 1989

UFO'S SIGHTED OVER GULF BREEZE, AGAIN?

WITNESS LYNN SOLEY IS A WELL KNOWN GULF BREEZE ARTIST,
AND HER HUSBAND IS A PRINTER AT PENSACOLA MAGAZINE

    "When we first saw it, it was about 10:00 p.m. Monday," said
Mrs. Lynn Soley of Breeze Street in Gulf Breeze, of an unidentified
flying object.

     "We were in the front yard. My husband spotted it in the sky
and he went in and got his binoculars.  We all took turns looking
at it. It was flashing red, yellow, green, and blue lights, with a
white light.  And then, on the upper right hand side and from time
to time, it would move down the lower right side and then over
to the lower left hand corner of the thing."

     "At one point, it turned on its side or something and the white
light was in the center with red flashing lights going around it in
a circle. Then, when we lost sight of it, we rode over to Shoreline
Park where we saw three more just like it.  Then we saw, in one
part of the sky, what looked like a big, bright star.  The funny thing
was, though, when the four UFO'S vanished, so did the big white
star. It disappeared too."

SENTINEL: How many people saw it, and can you tell us who they
were?

SOLEY:  While at Shoreline Park, we ran into a fisherman and a man
walking his dog.  They were looking at it.  We were all sharing the
binoculars.  And then very shortly, of course, came Gulf Breeze
Police and two police officers saw it.

SENTINEL:  They said they saw it, too?

SOLEY: Yes, they had our binoculars.  We shared binoculars. My
husband is a printer and the thing that amazed him about this one,
as well as the one he saw about 13 years ago, he said, was that the
colors of the lights were not like the colors we have here.  Like
the red lights were not any shade of red he had ever seen before.
And the same with the blue and the green.

     And then my brother-in-law, who we walked out to the car
with, has been in radar with the Navy ten years active duty and
twenty with the Reserves.  He said he didn't recognize it as
anything he had ever seen in the Navy, and that the lighting on
it was not like any aircraft lighting that he had seen before.

     Then Tuesday night, Joe went out to the backyard and saw
another one--just like the other four we'd seen on Monday night,
but this one didn't stay there very long.  It vanished in about
30 minutes.

SENTINEL: And where is your house?

SOLEY: On Breeze Street, off of North Sunset on the other side of
the peninsula, behind the Holiday Inn, more or less.  And the
direction the thing was going in, it must have gone right over
our house and we missed it.  It was like it was right over our
front yard and then starting veering southwest and finally,
at Shoreline Park.  When they all left at once, they went southwest.

SENTINEL: That was Monday night at what time?

SOLEY:  That was Monday night at 10:00 when we first saw it in
our front yard.  We watched it for about an hour there, then went
to Shoreline Park and it was about 1:00 in the morning when
they got so faint and all but one had disappeared and about that
time the big white light was gone too.

SENTINEL: How far away would you estimate it was when you
saw it?

SOLEY:  The first time we saw it--it's hard to say because I don't
know how big they really are--I would say it was probably over
the center part of Gulf Breeze between Shoreline and Fairpoint.
It would have been about in that general area when we first saw
it.

SENTINEL: Any sensation of noise?

SOLEY:  No, no noise at all.  It just hovered there and from time
to time they'd go up, down, or left to right, but they were
moving kind of slow.  You figure we watched them for about
three hours until they got so tiny you could barely see them
anymore, and that's when the big, bright "star" was gone too.

SENTINEL:  So, the summary is, you saw it Monday from your
home as you were going out to your car, you and your brother?

SOLEY:  Brother-in law.

SENTINEL: What's his name?

SOLEY:  Charles Higgs.  It was him, my sister and his mother--three
of them.  There were nine of us altogether that saw it.  My
brother-in-law and my sister live in Little Rock, Arkansas. I
don't know the names of the policemen or the guys we saw at
the park.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Gulf Breeze Sentinel,  May 4, 1989

SENTINEL WRITER FINALLY SEES UFO HERSELF

By Kimberly Stevenson

    Since the first report of UFO sightings over Gulf Breeze, I have
diligently watched the sky for a glimpse of these extraterrestrial
visitors.  A few times I thought I had seen somehting unusual,
but still a bit of skepticism prevailed.

     However, last week, on April 27th, a Thursday night about 9:30,
I routinely looked out my back door towards the City of Gulf
Breeze, hoping again these UFOs  would make an appearance so
that I could see them.

     I was amazed to see something different in the sky.  I walked
out on my back deck, turning off the kitchen light as I stepped
out and watched as a bright object shot at a tremendous speed
down and diagonally across the sky.  It then made a circular
pattern, then shot straight up.  The whole time it radiated colors
from it that grew in intensity from white, to blue, to green, to red.
No blinking lights just radiating colors of a nature I have never
seen.

     I have lived in this area for seven years and have watched the
sky on numberous occasions and am quite familiar with the
air traffic in the sky.  I am very familiar with aircraft of all sorts
and know what an airplane, jet, helicopter and yes, the Goodyear
Blimp look like in the sky.  I can assure you that what I saw
was not any of these.

     As I watched this object, which appeared to be right over the
area of Shoreline Park, I reached inside the house and called
an associate from work who came immediately to my house
with a friend.  I also called my neighbors next door, who came
out on their balcony and watched the object and said that they
could see two of them.  We watched the object for at least 30
minutes.  It sat in one spot for a very long time, then began to
slowly descend and move westerly, towards Perdido.  I called a
friend, Kenneth Payne in Perdido who was at work.  He went
outside with two other co-workers and they all saw the bright
object and confirmed it was moving slowly.  This was a little
after 10 p.m.

     Another young man on the beach was also watching the object
and we talked on the phone with him as he looked at it though
his binoculars; he too said he thought he saw more than one.
He was not available for an interview at the time this story was
written but will tell his story this week, along with other sightings
he had on Saturday and Monday.

     I have written several stories about other people's experiences
of UFO sightings and not always believed them, but I am sincerely
convinced now that something strange is flying over Gulf Breeze.

     Many reports of sightings have been flooding into THE SENTINEL
since last Thursday night.  A report of a sighting on Tuesday night,
May 2nd, was from a woman who wished to remain anonymous,
called saying her and her family were eating at Pizza Hut when
they saw a bright object, they left the restaurant and followed it
up Highway 98 to Shoreline Park were several people were
already there with binoculars watching it.  One gentleman she
said shared his binoculars with them.  The woman reporting
the sighting, whose son-in-law was a pilot, said he saw a shape.
It had shining red, green, and white bright lights.  The man with
the binoculars told the group that he had seen the UFO on other
occasions and when he saw it last week, it was so close and
bright, he could not continue to look at it.

     Anyone else who has had sightings recently, please contact
THE SENTINEL.  If you are still a skeptic, like I was, start watching
the sky, you might just see something that will change your mind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Gulf Breeze Sentinel,   May 11, 1989

UFO SIGHTERS SEE "MOVERS AND FLASHERS"

By Kimberly Stevenson

     Since the reported sightings of unidentified flying objects on
Thursday, April 27, Carla Yoder and her neighbor Kathy Deagle
have been keeping a watchful eye on the sky.

     They were among the many people who reported the objects
that appeared over Gulf Breeze.  Now each night, they don
their binonculars and stand at the end of their street  in the
Oriole Beach area looking for the extraterrestrial visitors.

     "Now the initial shock and fear are gone.  Now it is just
curiosity," Yoder said.

     Yoder has been keeping notes and diagrams of the movement
and location of the shining lights, that radiate different colors
and appear to move in different directions each night.  They
have seen them on April 27 and 29 and also May 1, 3, 5, and 6.

     Yoder wrote in her notes, "The days in between were too
overcast and also on April 30 first noticed, looking straight up,
an object just a small white light moving steadily across the sky.
Saw this three more times on 5/5 and a shooting star. A flash
of light with a tail."

     On April 27, as they watched the objects, they also noticed a
lot of air traffic flying overhead, helicopters, prop airplanes and
jets.  The helicopters they said, appeared to be military, and
circled over the area.

     The two neighbors have come to call the objects they are seeing
"Movers and Flashers."  The movers travel steadily across the
sky and the flashers radiate color and move slowly.

    Yoder and Deagle plan to keep a vigil on the Gulf Breeze sky
hoping to get a closer glimpse of these objects. "I wish one would
come close enough for us to see what it is," Deagle said.

     "If it is something the military is doing, then I wish they would
let us know," Yoder said as she lifted her binoculars towards the
sky.

--
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UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: 11/19/88 Gulf Breeze Sentinel Article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:08:24 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 53
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3127 alt.conspiracy:8622 sci.skeptic:17702




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

Gulf Breezes Sentinel
Volume 28, Number 49
November 19, 1988

[The following letter was printed in the above periodical. It was accompanied
by three photos showing an object with port hole like spots around it
periphery.  The quality is superb considering it is a photocopy of the
original newspaper.  Here in lies the story.]

"To Whom it May Concern:

  On the night of November 11th I took the pictures you now see before you.  I
was reluctant at first to show them to any one but my family but my wife
convinced me to show them to Ed.  Ed in turn said that the photos should be
shown to the press.  That is why he is presenting them to you.
  I had just sat down to dinner when I saw the object from my window.  I
rushed to my bedroom to get my Polaroid.  I rushed outside and started taking
pictures.  I got off four pictures (5,6,7,8) and then had to change film.  I
got one more good picture (1) before it shot straight up and disappeared.
  There may be some reasonable explanation for what I saw but I don't think
so.  The "ship" looked about the size of a small house.  It was, however,
quite some distance away and hard to tell.  It hovered in the sky for several
minutes and then left.  It did not spin or rotate but it did seem to bob up
and down while weaving slightly.  It glowed from the bottom as if that may be
the power source.  The markings (windows?) on the top there appeared to be a
dome or bump that was quite bright.  There was nothing colorful about it - no
flashing lights, no beams coming from it.  None of that "Star Wars" stuff; it
was just a dull gray-blue "thing".
  I don't think that it was military but you may want to check  It was quite
big and I don't think I was alone in seeing it. I wish to remain anonymous but
if these photos and story spark any interest from your readership I may
identify myself.  I am a prominent citizen of the community however and need
anonymity at this time.  I know what I saw and would feel much better if I
know if I was not alone.
  Let me reassure you that this is not a hoax.  I saw what I saw, took
pictures of it, and have given these pictures to you.  I wish I could come
forward but can not; for while I have nothing to gain, I have everything to
lose. Thank you for your time and understanding."

[End of article.]

--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
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UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: UPI Dispatch about Gulfbreeze Sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:09:42 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 77
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3128 alt.conspiracy:8623 sci.skeptic:17703





The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

UFO GROUP FASCINATED BY GULF BREEZES SIGHTINGS

      02/28/88
      GULF BREEZES, FL (UPI) [Via Moseley/Saucer Smear] -- A man who took
21 photos of objects he says are flying saucers and claims he has twice
seen diminutive aliens has generated interest from a group that
investigates UFO sightings.
      Mutual UFO Network, or MUFON, in Texas says the Panhandle case is
either an elaborate hoax or one of the most amazing encounters ever. The
key is "Ed," a home builder with bizarre tales of encounters he claims are
continuing.
      In the March edition of MUFON's "UFO Journal," investigators
offer one possible explanation for why Ed is privy to sightings: aliens
may have placed an implant in his head in an abduction years ago, and the
implant is now being activated.
      Hoax or not, it's garnered a lot of interest from a local weekly.
      It all began when the Gulf Breeze Sentinel on Nov. 19 published
Polaroid photos of a glowing object. The anonymous photographer claimed
they were taken Nov. 11. He said he would come forward if others saw the
same thing.
      The following week the paper published accounts from other residents
who claimed they saw a similar object, and other photos taken by two other
anonymous photographers.
      The newspaper has had nearly weekly updates ever since. This week
the paper published a four-page insert with more photos and an open letter
from "Ed." In addition to a picture purporting to show a UFO with a light
beam shining down, the insert has a drawing of a 4-foot-tall alien with
almond shaped eyes and carrying a silver wand.
      Two daily newspapers that previously ignored the sightings last week
ran stories, and a local television station had a three-part series about
Ed's sightings. The editor of the Gulf Breeze paper said he has talked to
reporters from Miami and Orlando and the National Enquirer in Lantana.
      The photographs have been scrutinized by many people who claim to be
photo experts. Some say they are the real thing, others say they are set
up. None has said how they were doctored.
      Ed's reliability is the key, and he has made some incredible claims.
      The article in the MUFON publication said it was premature to make a
judgment about the validity of the case, but does call the sightings an
"incredible UFO photographic and CE-III (Close Encounter of the Third
Kind) case."
      It describes in detail 13 alleged encounters "Ed" had. They range
from hearing a "humming" in his head to a Jan. 12 incident where he claims
he was stopped by a UFO that landed in front of his truck and saw five
aliens approaching.
      He left, in great haste.
      On several other occasions, Ed claims he was caught in a blue beam
that held him fast in place. Once it levitated him toward their craft,
then let him go for reasons unknown.
      He has also told investigators he has heard voices, telling him not
to be afraid and to stop resisting. He claims he is tipped off to the UFOs
appearance by a humming sound in his head.
      Because of the humming sound, MUFON investigators have supplied Ed
with a two-way radio so he can tell them when an experience occurs. He has
done so, but so far no investigators have seen a UFO.
      The MUFON article ventured to theorize about why Ed has been singled
out.
      "There is a possibility that Ed may have had an implant installed in
his head at some time in his life" that was only recently activated, the
article said.
      The MUFON article said it normally does not publish sighting reports
until being thoroughly investigated. But it said it was making an
exception because it is an "ongoing" case with continuing sightings.


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: January 8, 1990 UFO Sighting in Gulfbreeze
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:11:03 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3129 alt.conspiracy:8624 sci.skeptic:17704




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

  The UFO activity in Gulf Breeze, FL continues. According to a full page story
in the GB Sentinel, several witnesses observed and photographed a UFO on
January 8. (GB Sentinel, Jan. 11, 1990.) This time the witnesses included Duane
Cook (Editor of the Sentinel) and his wife. Two photographs were published. One
of the photos, taken by Chip Holston, appears to show "portholes" in the craft.
The article in the paper gives the story as reported separately by seven
different witnesses. After the UFO disappeared, numerous helicopters were
observed in the same general area.

===============================================================================


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Articles by Ware, Duane Cook, Editor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:12:26 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 207
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3130 alt.conspiracy:8625 sci.skeptic:17705




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The following brief articles appeared in the November 10, 1988
issue of The Sentinel, Gulf Breeze, Florida.  This issue discusses
some of the highlights of the UFO sightings that have
occurred in the area over the past year.  The first article is by the
primary photographer "Ed".  Others are written by: Donald Ware,
Florida state MUFON director; and Duane Cook, editor of The
Sentinel.  The articles are reproduced here with the permission
of The Sentinel.

------------------------------------------------------------------

ED SHARES PAST YEAR'S EXPERIENCES ON UFO SIGHTING'S
ANNIVERSARY

     On Nov. 11, 1987, as I opened the front door and stared at the
glowing object partly obscured by several pine trees, I stepped
into a phenomena that jolted me to the reality of UFOs.  A
phenomena that is being witnessed all over the world and here
at home by dozens of our fellow residents.  This reality may be
hard to accept for those who have not had a sighting, so I do not
try to convince or persuade.  I have only reported my personal
sightings and incidents as they happened.

     The resulting photographs and video tape I took of the UFO
have been validated by computer imaging (Dr. Maccabee, physicist
with the U.S. Navy).  And, of course, there are otheres who feel
differently and offer little other than opinions.

     When I was asked to use a 4 lens Nimslo 3-D sealed camera,
I did.  When I was asked to use the SRS (Self Referencing Stereo)
camera, I did.  The technical analysis of these photographs
produced page after page of data with the end result detailing an
object 14 foot in diameter at the bottom ring and 475 feet distant.

     The accusation of hoax came fast from those unable to say
"maybe", and I was asked to take a lie detector test.  Again the
ridicule was hurled toward me and yet another lie detector test.

     As the controversy swirled, I began to hear preposterous tales
being spread by the debunkers about devil parties and "ultimate
pranks," etc.  Those of you who know me will certainly laugh at
such claims, but the object was to discredit me in the eyes of those
who don't know me.  There was a very serious attempt  to destroy
my reputation by twisting spooky party games into ritual seances.
Having failed to discredit the photographic evidence, the out of
town critics have mounted a slander campaign hoping to brand me.
Thank you Gulf Breeze for ignoring these outrageous rumors.

     Some of you may remember the front page headline "Expert
says Photos a Hoax."  The next day the "expert" publicly retracted
his claim and apologized.  A counterintelligence agency in
Maryland was given an audio tape of me being interviewed.  The
resulting examination of the tape on a PSE (Psychological Stress
Evaluator) vindicated my word once more when the examiner
said the result "does not show any reaction to cause this examiner
to doubt his (Ed's) answers."

     Soon I began to understand that no matter how many tests I
was subjected to and how many times the photographs were
analyzed, I was still open game for the out of town media and
clearly a target to be ridiculed by the out of town debunkers.
Many distant newspapers and TV crews played "hide and seek"
with reporting the accurate details, and several times I have
been blackmailed in their quest for a scoop to expose my name.

     The official MUFON investigation was even infiltrated early
by a debunker who took a liquid sample suspected to have fallen
from the UFO for analysis only to issue a false report.  Later the
sample was analyzed by an independant lab with startling results.
The debunker was exposed and fired in discredit.  Another
debunker from Central Florida has recently been exposed and is
now being ignored by serious researchers.

     From Nov. 11 to May 1, 1988 (my last sighting), I have been
stedfast to the truth as the storm of controversy, both positive
and negative, continued to build in the media.  The most
troublesome question of the controversy is "Why have I had so
many sightings?"  I can not explain the "why" questions, the most
disturbing one being, "Why Me?"

     In an effort to understand, I have undergone a battery of
pshchological profile tests followed by six hours of regressive
hypnosis.  The details of the hypnosis indicate previous encounters
as far back as 11 years of age.  I was the first to shake my head
in confusion but have come to the adjustment that life goes on--
even life we may not understand.

     Thanks to all those who have stood up and reported what they
saw.  Thank you, Gulf Breeze for being a good neighbor.

------------------------------------------------------------------

GULF BREEZE UFO FROM THE INVESTIGATIVE PERSPECTIVE

                 BY DONALD M. WARE

     During the past year, many residents in and around Gulf Breeze,
FL have been part of a unique experience in this country.  Over
a hundred people reported objects that we could not identify as
planes, planets, flares, etc..  Some reported seeing alien beings,
and six reported blue beams coming from the UFO.  One respected
Gulf Breeze family had 22 encounters with UFOs, including 18
separate photographic sessions.  These sessions produced 41
photographs of at least five different types of flying objects.  Five
different cameras were used providing sufficient data to determine
the size of some objects.  For example, one object photographed
on 1 May 1988 was 14.8 (misprint?) feet high and had a light on
the bottom that was 14.8 feet in diameter.  I have seen over
60 photos of UFOs from this area.

     Investigations by Newspapers, TV and the Mutual UFO Network
were generally accomplished without ridicule.  This encouraged
12 people to tell of their UFO experiences that involved "missing
time" or extremely strange dreams.  Some of these people are
having trouble coping with their experiences. MUFON established
a support group including abductees, investigators, and a clinical
psychologist to help reduce fear of the unknown.  I think the
support efforts, including time-regression hypnosis, have helped
several who seem to have been inside a UFO understand their
strange experiences.

     I suspect that the increasing national media coverage of the
UFO phenomenon, spurred by the Gulf Breeze photos and sightings
will cause many more abductees to gain the courage to talk about
their experiences.  Perhaps some will seek help in understanding
what happened to them.  I hope investigators and psychologists
across the country will work together to provide this help.

     Some people have been unable to fully accept the reality of
alien visitors, including some "armchair investigators."  Perhaps
the Gulf Breeze photos will help people across the country accept
the reality described in the MJ-12 documents and other government
disclosures.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

TO CELEBRATE OR NOT TO CELEBRATE

           BY DUANE COOK

     How do you celebrate the anniversary of an event you are
not yet sure was good?

     Well, maybe celebrate is not the appropriate term.

     Perhaps reminisce is a better word to apply to our thoughts
and activities on this 1st anniversary of the now famous UFO
sightings by "Ed" and others in and around Gulf Breeze.

     Initially we had no idea that printing Ed's photos would cause
such a worldwide interest in our fair community.

     First, there were the wire services that broke the news
worldwide with a brief account of the first sightings.

     Then came the National Enquirer with their offer to pay for
the right to print the photos if NASA Scientists found them
genuine.

     MUFON (Mutual UFO Network) got involved in the investigation
early and became the authority to which the explosion of local
sightings were referred.

     Dr. Bruce Maccabee, an optical physicist under contract with
the Navy, did the most extensive research on the Gulf Breeze
sightings and photographs and has pronounced theEd lives here and they (the UFOs) just followed
him here to continue their interaction with him as they have done
at eight year intervals since he was a child?

     And what about the many other sightings we've had?  Is it just
coincidence that Charlie and Doris saw the same craft on the same
night that Ed photographed it, thus assuring the Sentinel's
unflinching support while maintaining its unquestioned credibility?

     Then there are the ministers, the teachers, the law enforcement
officers, the district medical examiner and his wife, and even a city
council member.

     Were these people just randomly in the right place at the
right time, or is there an intelligent plan guiding the selection of
who sees it and who doesn't?

     Whether we call it a celebration, a reminiscence, or a review,
we all found it amazing that it's already been a whole year since it
all started.

     And we wanted to share with you our thoughts and reflections
on this most interesting year.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Reports by several others also appeared in this issue of
The Sentinel but are not presented here.


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: 5/1/88 Gulf Breeze Report
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:13:51 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 187
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3131 alt.conspiracy:8626 sci.skeptic:17706





The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

                   GULF BREEZE, FLORIDA ACTIVITY SUMMARY
                            (As of May 1, 1988)

A.    Biased one-sided investigation

      1.   The  principal  investigators  have made public statements auth-
      enticating  the  photographs  prior to the conclusion of the investi-
      gation. (Attachment #1, "For the Record" dated April 25, 1988)

      2.   Negative  aspects  of  the  reported  events  in and around Gulf
      Breeze,  Florida have been restricted and covered-up by principal in-
      vestigators.  In  fact,  the  investigators have actually taken sides
      with  the photographer of the objects to the point of furnishing that
      photographer with internal correspondence pertaining to the investig-
      ation  and  research  of the reported events. (Attachment #2, corres-
      pondence referenced or distributed on a limited basis.)


B.    Questionable factors concerning principal witness/es

      1.   The  principal witness made his initial report to the _Sentinel_
      newspaper;  not  to an official agency such as the police department,
      for  whatever  reason he may give. This is a factor always considered
      when  reviewing  a  UFO report. In the Hickson/Parker case, for exam-
      ple,  the  two  witnesses  went first to Keesler AFB, Mississippi and
      then to the local police department. (Report content)

      2.   No known person independent of the principal witness has report-
      edly  observed  the  same object/s, despite the number of photographs
      taken, in presence of the photographer.

      3.   The  witness  has been writing and submitting manuscripts to Mr.
      Budd  Hopkins' agent, Ms. Phyllis Wender, for possible publication of
      a  book.  (Correspondence  from Mr. Donald Ware, Mr. Budd Hopkins and
      verbal confirmation by the photographer)

      4.   Some  residents  in the Gulf Breeze, Florida area have related a
      number  of  disturbing  incidents  in regard to the principal witness
      that  causes  concern to several investigators and researchers in the
      UFO  phenomenon community. One example is a statement alleged to have
      been  made  during  the  summer of 1987 by the witness: "The Ultimate
      Prank". (Interview with sources by four witnesses.)

      5.   The witness has not impressed me, as well as other investigators
      and  researchers,  of  having  had a truly traumatic experience. (De-
      rived  from  several  personal  visits with the witness,a review of a
      fairly lengthy video tape and investigation report content)


C.    Conflicting  and  inconsistent  characteristics  to actual known pat-
      terns of the UFO phenomenon

      1.   The  area  in which the majority of related experiences are said
      to  have  taken place is a heavily populated residential and business
      location.  The great majority of high quality UFO encounters occur in
      rural areas away from such populated areas.

      2.  The number of reports made by local residences were prompted pri-
      marily  by  the news media (assisted by the principal investigators).
      Flaps  or  waves  (large distribution of sighting reports over a geo-
      graphical  area) created by the phenomenon itself cover a larger area
      than  what has occurred in the Gulf Breeze/Pensacola reports. This is
      additional  evidence that the reports were primarily generated by the
      news  media  although  some  of  the independent sighting reports may
      very well be legitimate reports.

      3.   Although  one experience related by the witness involved an "at-
      tack"  by the UFO as it moved over and in front of his vehicle (in an
      isolated  location  for  that  particular incident) there were no E/M
      effects  reported.  Also, the progression of events are dissimilar to
      other low level encounters in higher quality cases.

      4.   Repeated  sightings  and  experiences related by the witness are
      similar  to  other  questionable  reports  and "contactee" claims. In
      most  high  quality  reports  the  witness experiences a single short
      duration  encounter.  In  longer term encounters the witness/es often
      relate a time and/or memory lapse following the experience.

      5.   Repeated  abilities  by  the witness of being able to resist the
      anomaly  (UFO/occupants)  have  been claimed. This is contrary to the
      results of studies in the field.

      6.   Several  similarities  with Mr. Whitley Strieber's book _Commun-
      ion_  have  been  found.  The  most curious similarity is the related
      smell  of  "Cinnamon"  with the Gulf Breeze report which can be found
      on  Page  19 of Mr. Strieber's book. This is the only known reference
      to  that  smell  in UFO literature to date. It is also of interest to
      note  that the book _Communion_ was released during the winter/spring
      of  1987  and  that  on  page 11 of Mr. Strieber's book he states: "I
      have never seen an Unidentified Flying Object."

      7.   The  abundance of photographs taken by the witness is a negative
      aspect  in  itself contrary to the actual exhibits of the UFO phenom-
      enon.  Most  high  controversy reports involve a large number of pic-
      tures -- especially when the photographer claims to be a contactee.

      8.   The majority of high-quality photographs depicting disc or vert-
      ically  positioned  cylindrical-shaped objects do not exhibit propul-
      sion units as shown in the Gulf Breeze, Florida photographs.

      9.   The  objects  depicted in the Gulf Breeze photographs are always
      tilted  in  a  manner showing a portion of the base but never the top
      towards  the  camera.  This  is also a curious feature because of the
      number of photographs taken.


D.    Questionable factors concerning the photographs

      1.   The  first  5  photographs  taken  on November 11, 1987 depict a
      rapidly  darkening  of  the  sky  that is not consistent with the 3-4
      minute duration that the witness related.

      2.   Accurate  cloud  movement data for the altitude depicted has not
      been  completed  although there are questions concerning the speed of
      the  clouds  in the first 5 pictures. Mr. Ray Stanford (PSI) informed
      me  this date that he has reinstated has analysis of weather data and
      that  information supported by documents from weather bureau stations
      will be provided in the near future.


E.    Inherent flaws with the depicted object/s

      1.   The  circular  base  at  the bottom of the object is tilted in a
      manner  that  creates  a non-symmetrical ellipse. An ellipse must al-
      ways  be  symmetrical.  There are, however, certain factors caused by
      the  atmosphere  and  photographic  lens  that may reduce imaging the
      true symmetry of an ellipse.

      2.   There  is  an  ambient light on the entire surface of the object
      depicted  in the first 5 photographs (especially in photograph no. 5)
      that  can  not  be  easily  attributed  to  sky light (reflected from
      clouds  at  a  distance),  the  object  itself, the moon, the sun, or
      local  utility lighting. This indicates the possibility of artificial
      illumination by the photographer.

      3.   There  is  a distinct flaw at the base of the object on the out-
      side  edge  of the rim. This is evident in photograph numbers 11, 14,
      and 17.

      4.   In  photograph  number 16 inside the bottom base of the object a
      circular  light  is  visible.  There  is a dimmed area visible at one
      portion  of  that circular light which is similar to a kitchen fluor-
      escent  light where an electrical connection may be. Mr. Ray Stanford
      (PSI)  is  conducting  comparative  research  with such lighting fix-
      tures.

      5.   There  is possible evidence of an overlap between the object and
      a  tree  in photograph number 7. The object appears to be in front of
      the  tree or integrated with the tree itself. Dr. Willy Smith is con-
      ducting analysis of this photograph as well as others.

      6.  The object depicted in the first 5 photographs appears to be non-
      symmetrical;  that is, the upper and lower portions of the object are
      off-center  from  one  another. This may be caused by reflections off
      of  a  glass surface or another form of medium between the object and
      the lens of the camera.

      7.   According  to Dr. Willy Smith (UNICAT Project) there is at least
      one  "window"  that does not line up horizontally with adjacent "win-
      dows" on the object.

      8.   The  spacing between the "windows" on the object are not propor-
      tional  to  one  another horizontally. This is obvious to the unaided
      eye  and measurements reveal mathematical inconsistencies contrary to
      good geometry.


Robert D. Boyd
CUFOS Investigator Coordinator
MUFON State Director, Alabama
/s/
May 1, 1988


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Letter to Citizens of Gulfbreeze-Bob Oechsler
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:15:09 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 109
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3132 alt.conspiracy:8627 sci.skeptic:17707





The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The following letter from UFO investigator Bob Oechsler appeared
in the May 12, 1988 issue of the Gulf Breeze Sentinel.

Reprinted by permission
---------------------------------------------------------------------

"An Open Letter to the Citizens of Gulf Breeze"

Dear Gulf Breeze Citizenry:
     For those who don't know me or my contributions to the
investigation of UFO related activity in Gulf Breeze, I am a UFO
Investigator/Reporter from the Annapolis, Maryland area.  My
involvement in your local sightings case has been quite extensive
with well over 100 hours of research and telephone interviews
with investigators, witnesses, photographers, meteorologists, path-
ologists, technologists and the media.  I've been reporting the events
on radio in Baltimore and have included "live" interviews with Ed,
Duane Cook and others.  I have battled the skeptics and have
reported my findings to the UFO Intelligence Community.  During
this period of time, I have had to investigate numerous sightings of
UFO activity in the Annapolis Bay Bridge area which has served to
limit my otherwise total involvement in the Gulf Breeze Sightings.
     Please be assured that not all "distant experts" are scientifically
critical of the extraordinary events that have been occuring in your
peninsula city.  Before getting too far into this letter, allow me to set
the record straight on one issue of significance to no one by myself.
Mr. R--- S-------  is not a resident of Annapolis, Maryland.  You
remember RS, the author of a report with a Strange Breeze blowing
through his head whose Psychic Premonitions lead him to believe
that The Sightings were all an elaborate hoax.  Mr. RS resides and
receives his mail in College Park, Maryland, some 35 miles from the
quaint little peninsula capitol of the state of Maryland which so
happens to be the city where I call home.  And so now you see the
reason for my interest in setting the record straight.
     It should be noted that statistically speaking, there are now on
record over 50 sightings of UFO activity in the Gulf Breeze area that
have no connection to the noted photographer Ed.  There are now
on record five photographers of UFO's only one of which has not
been in direct contact with MUFON investigators.  There is now re-
ported to be a second video tape of a moving and hovering UFO;
the photographer is in no way related to Ed.  And, there are over
100 witnesses of sightings who have asked to file reports, with
some accounts involving five and six witnesses.
      Remember the "Jan Tide" with the funny looking blimp of
radar equipment floating about in Pensacola Bay that was suppose
to leave in late January or early February?  Well you may have
noticed that it is still there over 90 days later. And, in case no one
has noticed, there is now a similar companion vessel out there
with the insignia NASA on the side.  Let's also not forget about that
cute little Army vehicle with the 150-foot telescoping RADAR
globe that had to be moved out of Ft. Pickens due to excessive
curiosity of visitors.  A civilian employee of Pensacola NAS has
reported that there are now 18 of those RADAR vehicles operating
in the Gulf Breeze area.
     What does all of this mean?  We're checking the records, but
it is doubtful that there has been a significant increase in drug
smuggling activity in the area.  Why has the Network News Media
taken such a hands-off approach to reporting these events outside
of the Pensacola area?  Is there Government INTEREST in this case
of UFO activity?  Is the Government turning some subtle screws to
clamp down on exposing what's really happening here?  If so,
WHY?  The answer may lie somewhere in the MJ-12 documents
that I've enclosed with this letter.  These documents have been
available for over a year now, and have been widely published in
their entirety in (among others) The Danville Newspapers in
Pennsylvania and at least one major newsletter out of Cranston,
Rhode Island.  Experts who have researched these documents
thoroughly say they are authentic.  A memo from President
Truman makes direct reference to the MJ-12 operation.  There
is more, much more, but this should be enough to encourage any
doubters out there that UFO's are REAL.  Their purpose is now
fundamentally known.  We may be powerless to stop it, although
some experts feel otherwise.
     A letter to the President of the United States was mailed today
along with correspondence to several members of congress and
the Senate.  The purpose is to seek official help in matters related
to the Gulf Breeze Sightings.  Matters that involve the purpose
behind the visitations.  Help is very much needed here.  Although
exceptionally competent as I stated in my report to the UFO
Intelligence Community on April 21, 1988, there are but less than
a handful of part-time qualified investigators available in the
area to handle the massive workload.  Scientific monitoring and
evaluation by civilian technologists is all but vacant here, except
for the exhaustive efforts of Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D.  The
reassuring hand of Budd Hopkins has been quite welcome therapy
for those in need, but it is not nearly enough.
     Will help be on the way?  We'll keep you posted as the gears
and cogs of our bureaucracy oil up for action.  The critics and
skeptics will not be able to sweep this intrusion under the carpet
with the guise of a hoax for long.  Our prayers are with you and
all whose lives have been changed forever.

Bob Oechsler
UFO Investigator/Reporter


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Statement from Bob Oechsler re Gulfbreeze
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:16:33 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 199
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3133 alt.conspiracy:8628 sci.skeptic:17708




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The follow are two reports by UFO investigator/researcher
Bob Oechsler, from Annapolis, Maryland.  They provide insights
and technical information relating to the Gulf Breeze, Florida UFO
phenomena.  The reports were received 9/22/88.

DBC

---------------------------------------------------------------------


THE GULF BREEZE PHOTOGRAPHIC SIGHTINGS CASE AS VIEWED
FROM WITHIN THE INVESTIGATION

     One of the most often asked questions by investigators unfamiliar
with the Gulf Breeze Case is to provide the single most compelling
piece of evidence that proves the case valid.

     In the final analysis of the Gulf Breeze UFO photographic sightings
case, it's not the photographs or the 8 mm home video of the flying
UFO, or the landing site or any one particular sighting or piece of
physical evidence that makes this case authentic.

     It's the people behind the story that make this case believable in
spite of it's incredibility.  The UFO phenomenon is rich in a foundation
of historical documentation.  This case has a certain uniqueness with
no precedence in the literature.  It has challenged the investigation
team right to the core of their individual areas of expertise.

     Putting the case in perspective, however, has been an even greater
challenge.  There probably can be no singly conclusive piece of the
puzzle that would validate the case.  Given adequate resources
someone probably could closely duplicate the photographic evidence.
Missing, however, is any evidence that any of the principals in this
case involving six months of active UFO sightings has the technological
background, resources or ability to duplicate the evidence.

     So we must ultimately evaluate the human factors in which we
are on firmer ground.  We must ask ourselves can more than 135
witnesses be lying about what they saw, is it possible that a dozen
well trained investigators and professionals be so naive and
incompetent as to allow even a sophisticated hoax to go undetected
under their very eyes for half a year.  Are at least nine victims of
missing time collectively hallucinating, and how can we deny the
concerns of a mother whose three year old daughter has since last
summer reported ghosts in her room, ghosts with big black eyes,
who take her away and bring her back.  And upon seeing photos of
the UFOs the child told her mother that she'd seen that and had
been in it!

     The evaluatable evidence in this case is abundant and available
for close scrutiny.  It is imperative to note that no specialist to date
has been capable of duplicating even one single piece of the evidence,
and I've personally witnessed a number of such attempts.  One day
someone will inevitably duplicate some of the evidence as will we
one day be capable of duplicating the technology many have
witnessed this year.  But for now we must consider, has an alien
culture from the stars initiated a long awaited Glasnost Policy of their
own.  If indeed that is the case, what will it mean to our society and
the rest of the peoples of the Planet Earth in the years to come!


Broadcast Reporter

Bob Oechsler
Investigator/Researcher
Annapolis, Maryland

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

INVESTIGATIVE ANALYSIS


     The photographic and video taped evidence in the Gulf Breeze
case was brought to my attention approximately two months after
the first reported sightings of UFO activity on November 11th of
1987.  An exhaustive series of polygraph tests were conducted on
the primary photographer in the case, one of five known to the
investigative staff.  It seemed pertinent under the circumstances
that additional methods be employed to verify the veracity of the
witnesses.  Following a background check of the primary
photographer with his verbal permission, various investigation
interviews were subjected to Voice Stress Analysis using state of
the art Psychological Stress Evaluator equipment operated by one
of the nation's top expert analysts.  There were no reactions in the
analysis that would indicate that any of the three witnesses
interviewed were telling anything short of the truth about what
they observed.

     Meteorologic and Site Survey analyses were performed as a
check against the details reported for the first photographic sighting.
The conclusion verified that the photographs were likely to have
been taken on the day and time period reported as no other similar
conditions existed over a two week period prior to publication
of the photographs.

     An investigation into the photographic equipment used was
conducted through field tests and close consultation with Polaroid
Corporation engineers.  It was determined that the camera used
through February 7th could perform double exposure techniques
with the 108 type film.  Investigators provided the witness with a
35mm Nimslo stereo camera and employed controls that were not
subsequently breached as determined following inspection of the
camera and film after a photographic sighting.  A more sophisticated
Polaroid Sun 600 camera was purchased on March 7th.  The following
day the camera was first used during a photographic sighting
opportunity.  It was determined by the Polaroid engineers that a
double exposure was possible but extremely difficult to effect.  On
March 17th a second Polaroid Sun 600 camera was combined with
the first in a stereo array to create a parallax for measuring the
distance and size of objects by comparing two photographs taken
simultaneously.  The degree of difficulty in a double exposure had
now increased beyond reasonable proportions.  The final piece of
equipment used was a Sony 8mm home video camera with sound
and without zoom capability.  A one minute and thirty eight second
two part video tape was shot on December 28th.

     An extensive analysis of the two part video tape was started in
March and continues today.  Various enhancement techniques were
performed at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center.  Among those tests
a variable speed element was employed to make tapes for viewing
the entire tape at one tenth speed.  A Sony Video Editor model
BVU820 was used with a digital time base corrector to supply a direct
signal to a Video Hard Copy Unit made by Tektronix, model 4632.
The thermal printer generated photo images of both phases of each
frame.  A ten second portion of the video tape requires 600 single
copy prints.  Each print is measured to define altitude, flight path,
rotation characteristics, frequency of beacon lights, ring aberrations,
attitude in flight, air speed/velocity, acceleration/deceleration
and an analysis of direction reversals.  A preliminary analysis of the
audio track indicated that no sound could be identified with the
object.  More sophisticated equipment is being sought.  A preliminary
analysis concludes that the object observed in the video tape closely
resembles objects photographed with the Polaroid cameras.  The
object has a clockwise or left to right rotation.  The dome or beacon
light blinks on and off at no consistent rate or pattern and displays a
variable luminosity with each cycle.  The object loses altitude moving
to the left of the camera just prior to blinking out.  A ghost image
appears in the first phase of the next frame approximately two object
widths to the right that may be related but is apparently not visible
through the transmission medium.  There are certain restrictions in
the evaluation of the video tape.  Due to the horizontal resolution
lines, we are viewing the object through what is analogous to jail bars
turned sideways.  Nonetheless it appears conclusive that the
bottom or power source light has a variable luminosity characteristic
which is not synchronic with the beacon light on top of the object.

     As an experienced robotics technician I've built many remote
controlled devices in the past ten years.  As a prototype designer
I am well versed in exotic techniques used to operate various
sizes of apparatus from very small to very large using sometimes
inexpensive semi-automated frequency controlled equipment.
The specifications detailed in this case, most notably the absence of
audible sound from the UFO craft in the 8mm home video and the
rotational characteristic, create enormous difficulty when an attempt
is made to re-create what is observed by constructing a model to
examine the technology.

     Further research is continuing in many areas relating to this
photographic sightings case.  It is quite clear to this investigator that
we are examining a truly anomalous technology.

     On May 9th, 1988, I initiated an official appeal for assistance
through the Office of the President of the United States and various
members of the Sanate and House of Representatives.  Government
or at least military interest in the events that were occurring in
Gulf Breeze, Florida was quite apparent in light of newspaper
reports bearing photographs of vessels with elaborate radar gear,
military vehicles with telescoping radar gear (all deployed in the
vicinity of the sightings) and a reported visit to the primary
photographer's residence by purported officials requesting original
photographic materials.  Responses received from the Office of the
Secretary of the Navy revealed concern over evidence of federal
airspace rules violations, responses from congressional representation
revealed concern over human rights violations.  The Office of the
Chief of Naval Operations (Air Warfare) ultimately declined to
investigate citing scarce Navy financial and personnel resources.
It might be interesting to note that in a civilian capacity, Navy
physicist, Dr. Bruce S. Maccabee conducted an extensive photo
analysis of the evidence and found no evidence contrary to the
existence of anomalous objects in the photographs.


Bob Oechsler
UFO Investigator, Researcher, Broadcast Reporter
Annapolis, Maryland


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Film Crew Watch UFO In Gulf Breeze, FL
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:18:00 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 63
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3134 alt.conspiracy:8629 sci.skeptic:17709





The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                   News-Wire
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: 01-30-91  22:27

  From the Gulf Breeze Sentinel, by Bruce Morrison.

ABC JOINS LOCAL UFO SKY WATCH

  The Los Angeles based production company, Ohlmeyer Productions, working on
the ABC special, "America's Best-Kept Secrets," joined a local UFO sky watch
on Friday night, January 11, 1991, and filmed the frequently-seen "red light"
over Gulf Breeze.

  The cameraman, Ron Ladd, said, "It was a long distance away illuminating
the clouds and traveling very slowly to the east. It just appeared from within
the clouds and after a minute or so it disappeared. I caught it on film. It
was sometimes very bright and then would fade, maybe because of the clouds."

  An earlier witness Jeff Lawrence said, "What we saw on November 11, 1990
looked like the UFO that Ed Walters photographed three years ago. I know what
we saw."

  Eight local area residents were also present during the sighting along with
the production company's producer, Jeff Androski, and former NASA systems
specialist Robert Oechsler. Mr. Oechsler was the first to see the glow of the
UFO as it appeared beneath the clouds.

  Mr. Oechsler is here on assignment from Washington and is an expert in
remote controlled mechanics and photo analysis. He was equipped with infrared
film to photograph the unidentified red object and said, "I have tried to
consider all the options to this Gulf Breeze mystery. I would like to explain
it away as a military aircraft, balloons, flares, temperature inversions, or
hoax, but none of these options hold up under scientific study. Balloons don't
travel opposite the wind, flares don't change color or hover motionless and I
can assure you that what I saw and filmed over Gulf Breeze was not an airplane
of helicopter.

  I have designed some very sophisticated remote control systems but
duplicating the soundless flight and brightness of this unknown object would
be next to impossible. I can only say that I don't know what it is."

  The ABC special will air in February. One segment will present information
about the mysterious grass circles in Gulf Breeze Shoreline Park along with
the unidentified flying red object that dozens of local residents continue to
photograph.
=END=


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Message Thread-Camera Ed Walters Used
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:19:19 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 294
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3135 alt.conspiracy:8630 sci.skeptic:17710




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

(1226)  Fri 22 Jun 90 10:02
By: John Hicks
To: John Burke
Re: Re: Ed Walters/Gulf Breeze
St:                                                     Reply chain 1007  1331
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01d8f3a6
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6b09d1a3
 > John:  The thing that really makes me suspicious about those
 > "Shoreline Park" photos is that even though there were
 > "witnesses" in the area (Duane Cook from the Sentinel -- and his
 > wife -- and at least one other person) *noone* saw the UFO that
 > Ed photographed.  I think it was Duane who had occaision to
 > actually see the camera flash  --  without seeing *any* UFO.
 >      So we have "eyewitnesses" but what did they witnesses?  --

  We have six witnesses in addition to Ed and Frances. Duane and Dari were
driving away only to turn around and head back, while the others were for all
practical purposes *hiding* behind a restroom building.
  Ed was hiding in a clump of bushes so that anyone who wandered up wouldn't
pester him.
  Anyway, based on where the witnesses said they were, and where Ed said he
was, they couldn't see him or the ufo because their view was blocked by the
building and trees. They could, however, see the treetops above Ed.
  When he fired the flashes, they saw the flashes against the treetops. All the
witnesses said they saw the flashes light the treetops, but didn't see a ufo.
  All they actually witnessed was the film being loaded into the cameras, the
flashes going off, and then the pictures developing. That the pictures they saw
developed was the same film that was loaded into the cameras was verified.
There's no way to swap a previously-prepared filmpack for what was loaded
without resetting film counters *and* having a different serial number.
  According to the witneses, there was only a couple of minutes Ed and Frances
were alone, hence no time to hang or otherwise fiddle with models etc.
Placement of models or turning the tripod would have to be *exact* or the
stereo effect of the two cameras would give it away.
  So, although the witnesses didn't see a ufo, they do provide confirmation
that the film loaded into the cameras wasn't prepared in advance, that the
filmpacks weren't switched, that there was no time to mess with models etc.,
and that whatever appeared in the developing pictures is what Ed photographed
when he fired the cameras.
  Either that or all present were in on a hoax, and there's no evidence at all
toward that.
  If you can figure out a feasible way to hoax that incident, we're all
listening. My brain's tired. ;-)

(1239)  Sat 23 Jun 90  0:33
By: John Hicks
To: Pete Porro
Re: CAMERAS
St:                                                             Reply to 1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01d1f3c5
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6b806b54
 > I read one account that Ed used a twin 35mm camera rig for the
 > paralax and pseudo stereo. I have seen references to the Nimslo
 > camera but is this in fact one of the types he used? If so it
 > gives the best effect on close photos, after about 20 feet there
 > is not much stereo effect.

  A Nimslo was in fact used. Maccabee used the images from the outer lenses as
the baseline for his parallax measurements.
  He reached the conclusion that the baseline was long enough for calcualtions
of distance out to about 20 feet, but no farther. He did calculate, though,
that the object photographed with the Nimslo was more than 20 feet away.
  As far as clear photos, I've noticed one thing in common among many of the
other folks who've taken ufo photos which show blurs and streaks.
  They usually have their cameras loaded with fairly slow film; that is, ISO
400 or slower. Also, since they don't have the foggiest idea of what a proper
exposure would be, they just leave the camera's autoexposure system set on
automatic. The camera meter "sees" all that black sky, ignores the tiny light,
and automatically gives an exposure of several seconds duration. Also, the
cameras are just about always handheld.
  The result is a large blur and/or a streak. Ed got the exact same results
with his new camera, which is a Canon A1 with a long zoom lens.
  According to Maccabee, Ed was unconciously setting an exposure of about 1/2
to 1 1/2 seconds with his old Polaroid simply by the way he was pressing and
releasing the shutter button. The shape of the Polaroid makes it fairly easy to
handhold for those durations. The pictures aren't all that incredibly sharp,
but not bad. That is, they're not as sharp as the camera is capable of.

(1312)  Sat 23 Jun 90 14:35
By: John Hicks
To: All
Re: GB pix
St:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01dd0c57
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6b8e6706
  I have come up with a method by which Ed's pictures 36L and 36R could have
been hoaxed. There is, however, no evidence that points toward a hoax.
  I had a very long conversation with Bruce Maccabee this morning, and he
agrees that my hoax method is workable. We now have a situation in which every
one of Ed's ufo pictures could be hoaxed. Not very easily, but could be.
  I'd also discovered a factor that may have nailed an unwitting hoaxer dead,
but concrete evidence satisfied the requirements of that factor to *not* prove
a hoax.
  Recently a person has said publicly that he helped Ed hoax pictures, and the
person has, at least privately, shown some ufo pictures. Maccabee said he has
some of the pictures. He said that he has disproved the hoax method described
by the person on eight technical points. In other words, the pictures the
person presented *could not* have been hoaxed the way the person said they
were.
  We're then forced to conclude that the pictures are real, and that the person
is sustaining a lie he told two years ago. To clarify, the person apparently
took real pictures and then lied that they were fake, for personal reasons.

(1518)  Mon 25 Jun 90  1:27
By: John Hicks
To: John Burke
Re: Re: CAMERAS
St:                                                             Reply to 1514
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01d1b217
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6c8111f6
 > re:  The "Nimslo Object" (or "NO UFO")  -- don't forget to point
 > out that Maccabee calculated this object to be approximately 2.5
 > feet in diameter.

  Don't forget that the same object appeared later in an SRS camera pair, and
the size matched up within a reasonable amount. The parallax calculations also
showed that the object was *no more* than about 40 feet away. The object was
close enough to show parallax.
  Can you explain how a model (or whatever) could have been moved so precisely
that the size was consistent in two different stereo photo pairs?
  The only way to hoax it I can think of is to suspend the model in a dark room
at least 20 feet long and photograph it, then do that again with the SRS rig.

 >  Of course, if this were any other case, such
 > a finding would spell the end of it, since most people would cry
 > "Model!".

  Do you know the acceptable size range of ufos? If you do, please tell us how
you came by this information.

 > But ... since this is the sacred Gulf Breeze case we must all
 > "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"    --  John

  There's at least a few of us paying a hell of a lot more attention than you
realize.
  I've enlarged the hoax possibility to include *all* of Ed's pictures, and
that's on a provable, demonstrable technical basis, while previously they were
all hoaxable except for one pair. However, all I've proven is that it's
*possible* that the pictures were hoaxed, and that at least one possible hoax
method is known for *each* picture.
  Neither I, nor anyone else, has *proven* a hoax. Until that happens, the
possibility that Ed's pictures are true ufo pictures as claimed *cannot be
dismissed*.
  If you read Bruce Maccabee's analysis, if you hear him speak, or if you talk
with him on the phone, he says (and has said all along) that a hoax is a
possibility, but no one's been able to prove it.
  In the absence of proof of a hoax, you need to proceed as if the pictures are
real, while continuing to look for evidence of a hoax.
  Now, I'm certainly not trying to start any kind of battle over this stuff.
You may notice that in one sentence I may be saying something that supports
Ed's case while in the next sentence I'm chipping away at it. I had something a
couple of days ago that would have proven a hoax beyond a shadow of a doubt,
concrete proof, if certain numbers hadn't matched up, but it turns out they
match up perfectly. The reason the numbers were so important is that *none of
the investigators knew what they meant*.
  If I come up with solid, undebatable proof of a hoax, you'll most likely read
about it right here first. The same will happen if I come up with the same sort
of proof that they're real.
  BTW, I know I sound sorta proud of my hoax possibility theory. I am. Only
took me about two months to think it up, when it should have been obvious right
away. ;-)

(1519)  Mon 25 Jun 90  1:29
By: John Hicks
To: John Burke
Re: Re: Ed Walters
St:                                                     Reply chain 1334  1520
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01d1b21b
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6c81761f
 > re: >Also that the father and son are anonymous.
 > That's not true.  The father and son have been on the local TV
 > station (WEAR?).  The father is a GB lawyer who is on the City
 > Council.  They have polaroids that were taken with Ed's camera
 > of the same models that appear in Ed's Book.     --  John

  You are correct. While they were a very short time ago anonymous phone
callers, they aren't anonymous any more.
  Bruce Maccabee told me that he has proven on *eight technical points* that
the photos could not possibly have been faked in the manner the young man
claims. Since this would be independently verifiable, I take Maccabee's word
for it.

(1524)  Mon 25 Jun 90 13:33
By: John Hicks
To: Jim Delton
Re: Re: Ed Walters/Gulf Breeze
St:                                                     Reply chain 1517  1525
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01dc2586
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6c8d29ce
 > Why was Ed using a Flash to take photos of something flying in
 > the sky??

  Maccabee found that Ed was unconciously setting a shutter speed of around one
second with his first Polaroid. Actually, what happens is that the camera will
autoexpose until it reaches the limit of its dim-light range, then the shutter
will simply stay open until you let go of the shutter button.
  Ed was doing the very common thing of giving the shutter button a real good
press, for whatever reason most snapshooters do.
  As for flash, consider all the people who use their little cameras with their
little flashes at, for instance, a night football game. They don't know any
better.
  In the original Polaroid, the flash isn't linked to the camera in any way
except for the firing connection; that is, it doesn't affect any other camera
operations.
  If you see the originals, they're all actually extremely dark, as if they're
underexposed by several stops.
   As for the second Polaroid type (Sun 600), you get the flash whether you
want it or not. It's built-in, and if the camera meter determines flash is
needed, it fires the flash. No choice in the matter.
   Also, the shutter speed is limited to a minimum speed; probably about 1/15
second. Maccabee told me, but I forgot exactly what it was.
   The pictures taken with the Sun 600 cameras are much darker than the
original series of Polaroids, which is consistent with a limited minimum
shutter speed but somewhat faster film.
  The "light-blasting" technique used for the pictures in the book consists of
holding the original print up to direct sunlight and photographing it. Works
sorta like a transparency, in that detail that's almost lost in the dark is
brought out. Unfortunately, this extreme lightening of the images mostly so
they could be reproduced in the book has given a false impression of how the
pictures look. They're really very dark.
  As for the Nimslo, the images of the lights, whatever they are, are actually
quite sharp and very small. They do, however, show parallax. That indicates
that the object was not so far away that the parallax would be unmeasurable. If
the object was, say, 500 feet away the amount of parallax would probably be
less than the size of the film grain or the resolving power of the lens/film
combination. That is, it would be unmeasurable.
  The baseline (distance between the outer lenses) of the Nimslo wasn't large
enough for accurate measurements for an object farther than about 20 feet away.
You could clearly prove, for instance, that an object was between, say 30 and
60 feet away, but you couldn't measure more accurately than that.
  Thus the SRS.
  Maccabee said he was musing aloud about how to make a stereo camera with a
significantly larger baseline, and that Ed surprised him by building one. The
first version had the wiggles, so it couldn't really be used, but the second
version was much more stable. However, the stick (which made it self-
referencing) still had the wiggles so had to be discounted.
  The concept was great, but the execution left a little to be desired.
  Anyway, Ed did get a shot of the Nimslo object in the same frame pair with
another object with the second version of the SRS. Its size for the calculated
distance was consistent with the frame pair from the Nimslo.

                              *continued*

(1525)  Mon 25 Jun 90 13:39
By: John Hicks
To: Jim Delton
Re: Re: Ed Walters/Gulf Breeze
St:                                                             Reply to 1524
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01dc258a
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6c8d8e52
  As for why not giving Ed a sealed 35mm camera for all the shots. The
explanation was that no one had (or was willing) to, for all practical
purposes, give away a personal camera that they owned. The Nimslo was
previously obtained for $25 from a  camera store by an investigator who thought
there might eventually be some use for the thing.
  It's not the camera I'd have picked for the purpose. A Stereo Realist is a
much more accurate camera with a much wider baseline, but then we're talking
about buying a camera for about $200 for one in good condition, and giving it
to someone for an unknown length of time.
  Would you be willing to do that?
  Also, there are problems with both these cameras. The Nimslo is designed to
provide four images to be used in a proprietary process that produces
lenticular 3D prints, similar to 3D postcards. The Stereo Realist is designed
to duplicate the baseline of the human eyes and provide a stereo pair of slides
to be viewed in a viewer, like the old viewers which showed 3D views using a
disc of transparencies.
  In any event, they don't have a larger baseline than human vision, and that
simply isn't large enough.

                                           jbh

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: Paranet NU-DELTA(sm) Orlando, Fla. [phone] (1:363/29)


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
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/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Japanese Film Crew Film UFO, May 10, 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:20:24 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 50
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3136 alt.conspiracy:8631 sci.skeptic:17711





The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

  From the Gulf Breeze Sentinel, May 16, 1991........

  On May 10, 1991, I, Jun-ichi Yaoi and my Japanese film crew arrived in Gulf
Breeze in the hope of documenting the local UFO sightings. NIPON television
network, the largest/oldest commercial broadcasting company of Japan, sponsors
our investigative documentary to be aired as part of the two-hour special
nationwide in Japan.

  Bob Oechsler, a former NASA systems specialist, from WAshington, D.C.,
accompanied us as a consultant to advise and analyse any evidence that we might
be able to capture on film.

  At approximately 11:30 p.m. Bob Oechsler told us that a "red UFO" had been
sighted to the northwest of the Holiday Inn where we were staying. We were
preparing for bed but we quickly got our cameras and set up a "sky watch" near
the hotel swimming pool overlooking the Pensacola Bay.

  Fifteen or twenty minutes passed. Then, out over the water, a bright red
object suddenly appeared. The sky was clear over Gulf Breeze and the Bay, with
most of the rain clouds still visible over Pensacola. What we saw and filmed
was amazing! It was brilliant and I must say, beautiful. As recorded on our 36
to one zoom lens, the UFO moved to the northeast for one minute and twenty
seconds before suddenly winking out and the returning for a few seconds as a
small white ball of light which then also winked out.

  Our film of the UFO clearly shows a circular ring of red "energy" with a
center glowing orange core. It will be further analyzed to identify any
structure. We have interviewed dozens of local witnesses who have taken video
and photos of the UFO but we are particularly impressed with the similarity
with photographs taken by Ed Walters in 1988.

                                    Jun-ichi Yaoi, director
                                    5-7, Kojimachi, Chiyoda-ku
                                    Tokyo, Japan



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
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/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Bruce Maccabee Ltr to Gulf Breeze Sent 7/5/90
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:21:38 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 283
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3137 alt.conspiracy:8632 sci.skeptic:17712





The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

  The following is a letter to the editor that was printed in the
GULF BREEZE SENTINEL on Thursday, July 5,1990.  It was written by
Bruce Maccabee in answer to a letter to the editor from Gulf
Breeze Mayor Ed Gray. I thought it might be of interest to those
who didn't make it to the MUFON Symposium.

Dear Editor:

     Ed Gray may know how to govern the town of Gulf Breeze, but
he obviously knows little about the UFO subject.

     He claims that he knew early on (over two years ago) from
"logic and common sense" that the Walters sightings were a hoax,
yet he admits that he had "no conclusive proof the sightings of
Ed Walters were fabricated." However, the lack of conclusive
proof did not prevent him from making, about two years ago, a
public statement that he believed the sightings to be a hoax. He
does not explain the "logic and common sense" that led to his
statement. However, I suspect that what he really means is that,
SO FAR AS HE KNOWS, UFOS DON'T EXIST and hence photos of them
must be fakes. If he had studied the subject more, or had paid
more attention to the reports of many of his own constituents, he
might have been less positive in his conclusion.  Perhaps he
should talk to Ken Fortenberry, the Managing Editor of the
Pensacola News Journal regrading the reality of UFOs.

     He claims that the "many other sightings by well respected
citizens," sightings which he couldn't dispute, were a result of
"the power of suggestion and the very real occurrences of so much
air traffic in our area." As experienced UFO investigators know,
this sort of explanation can account for some sightings of the
"night lights" or "daylight disc" type in which the witness'
description is vague or differs only slightly from descriptions
of conventional objects in the sky. However, this cannot explain
sightings of distinctively unusual objects with strange flight
dynamics (e.g., able to hover silently at low altitude), nor can
it explain reports of daytime or nighttime sightings, sometimes
by many witnesses at once, of structured objects which are
distinctively shaped UNLIKE conventional objects.

     Mayor Gray says that during the two years between his first
public statement and the present time he was dismayed to see the
Walters sightings being turned into a book since he knew it was a
hoax. He claims that he received numerous phone calls about the
subject and either mentioned his opinion that it was a hoax or
else he "declined to discuss it because I was fed up with the
topic." Perhaps "being fed up with the topic" prevented him
from reading any of the generally available literature on the
subject and thus informing himself about the nationwide and
worldwide occurrences of sightings by all sorts of people. If he
attends the MUFON symposium (He didn't!) he will learn how
seriously this subject is treated by scientific investigators
from around the world.

     Mayor Gray says that the first "break" came with the
discovery of the model. He attempts to explain how this discovery
came about by suggesting that Ed "miscalculated how safely buried
under insulation in his former residence's attic the model of the
UFO would be. He didn't want to chance the model being discovered
should he move it and thus left it there, or he carelessly forgot
about it since it had been several months since he had used it."

     That the Mayor should try to "rationalize" the discovery of
the model is understandable (he must have some justification for
how it happened to still exist and be found), but his
rationalization is silly. If Ed's sightings were a hoax based on
that model than he is a "genius" in carrying it off thus far. It
is hard to imagine that this genius would be so stupid as to
simply hide incriminating evidence under insulation. It is much
more likely that he would destroy it. Even Tommy Smith, the
formerly anonymous witness against Ed, realizes that (assuming Ed
hoaxed the photos) Ed would not let any incriminating evidence be
found. He states in his testimony (the truth of which is not
proven) that "Ed was pretty careful with that stuff. Anything he
was worried about he usually burned." But as Mayor Gray listened
to Mr. Smith he somehow missed this clue that Ed would have
burned any models.

     We now know that the model is not evidence against Ed. Not
only is it clearly not what appears in Ed's photos, but it didn't
even exist before September 1989, about two years after Ed's
first photos. (I don't expect the mayor to now claim that Ed made
a model in September 1989, nearly two years after his reported
sightings and than hid it in the house which he hadn't lived in
since December 1988.)

     Apparently the testimony by Tommy Smith was the "last straw"
for Gray who decided to once again, and forcefully this time,
state his position.

     Although this testimony was convincing to Gray, I have found
ten items that are discussed in the testimony which have
technical errors.  I will mention just three. I would not expect
Mayor Gray to have realized the errors in the first two of these
items, but I should think that one or both of the reporters would
have realized there was something "fishy".  On the other hand,
even the Mayor, I should think, would have questioned the third
item.

     The first items were the subject of a letter I sent on June
18th to the Pensacola News Journal. One item has to do with the
explanation of how the model was supposedly supported while Ed
photographed it.  According to Mr. Smith, and more or less as
illustrated in the PNJ (Sunday, June 17), Ed had a "tripod set up
with a flashlight pointing straight up," and sitting on the
flashlight "was part of a PVC pipe that was black and he had
it sliced at an angle, and he would tape the spaceship on top and
the flashlight would shine up and illuminate the spaceship." This
method of mounting the model would block the back side of the
"power ring" at the bottom of the model from the direct view of
the camera. Hence every one of Ed's photos, if made this way,
would show a rather wide black gap in the more distant part (the
lowest portion in the photos) of the "power ring." I suggest the
reader look at the pictures in Ed's book to see in how many cases
the complete ring is visible. The light coming up through the
pipe would directly illuminate the top of the model leaving the
bottom relatively dark (depending upon the exact size of the pipe
relative to the model), in contrast to the actual photos which
have a very bright bottom.

     The second item involves the Nimslo stereo camera. According
to Mr.  Smith, "from what he (Ed) told me, he went out and took a
picture of an airplane landing at night." This explanation is
completely contradicted by the photographic data. First, the
images recorded by the camera do not at all look like an airplane
at night. Second, the stereo effect (parallax) created by the two
outer lenses of the camera show that the photographed object was
no more that 100 ft. from the camera (the actual range estimate
is 40 to 70 feet). At that range the length of the object, as
determined by the length of the image and the camera optics, was
less than 6 feet. An airplane full of micromidget UFOnauts
perhaps? The above information on the results of the analysis of
the Nimslo photos has been available for two years in a document
published by the Fund for UFO Research entitled "A History of the
Gulf Breeze Sightings." More importantly, the size information
was immediately available to the reporters for comparison with
Smith's testimony because it is on page 301 of The Gulf Breeze
Sightings by Ed and Frances Walters. (Reporter Myers told me he
had read the book.)

     The third item is one that almost anyone who has a lawn can
understand. When asked about how Ed created the circle of dead
grass in the field behind his house, near the high school, Mr.
Smith said, "If I remember correctly, he told me that he turned a
small trampoline upside down for a while and jumped up and down
on it." This is patently ridiculous. Aside from the fact that a
13 foot diameter circle would require more than a "small
trampoline" to cover it, the grass in that circle was somehow
killed during the winter (the circle was discovered in February
1988) and remained dead for several months as the grass around
the circle turned green and grew during the spring. I have a
photograph taken in May showing the circle still brown. At the
time that the circle was found there was a suggestion that some
chemical was used to kill it, but no residue was found. One would
think that as silly an explanation as this would have at last
raised the eyebrows of all who were listening.

     What led Mr. Smith to claim, in all seriousness, apparently,
the latter two explanations for the Nimslo photos and the circle?
According to Mr. Smith, Ed TOLD him. Yet these explanations
(airplane and trampoline) CANNOT BE TRUE. Hence there must have
been fabrication on someone's part.  There are several
possibilities, two of which are: (a) Ed admitted to Smith that he
(Ed) faked the Nimslo photos and faked the circle, yet Ed lied to
Smith about how he faked them; (b) Ed told the complete truth to
Smith but Smith, for some reason, didn't tell the complete truth
to the interviewers, (c) Ed told the complete truth to Smith but
Smith forgot what Ed had told him and made up explanations on the
spot to satisfy the interviewers.

     None of these explanations for Smith's statements makes any
sense, If he didn't remember what Ed had said, why not simply
say, "I don't know." If Ed trusted Mr. Smith so explicitly as to
admit to him that he faked the Nimslo photos and the circle, then
why wouldn't Ed tell him exactly how the fakes were done? (Why
hide the true explanations from Mr. Smith who, according to
Smith, had watched Ed create double exposures fakes?) On the
other hand, if Ed told Mr. Smith how the fakes were done, then
why wouldn't Mr. Smith tell the investigators?

     There is, of course, at least one other possible reason for
why Mr.  Smith told the investigators about the "airplane and
trampoline" explanations. I suppose that the reader can imagine
what it is.

     Mr. Gray says that he wrote the published letter while "in
route back from meeting an accomplice to Ed Walters...", Hank
Boland. Hank was the only non-Walters family member mentioned by
Smith as being involved in the hoax. Hank has vehemently denied
any involvement in a hoax and instead has testified that he, too,
saw the UFO. This testimony was first recorded by the MUFON
investigators in February 1988. His testimony was "voice stress
analyzed," with no stress being found at key points in his
testimony.

     One would think, considering the gravity of this matter,
that Hank's rejection of Mr. Smith's testimony (which leaves Mr.
Smith as the only person claiming to have first hand knowledge of
the hoax) would at least give Mr. Gray some cause to question
Smith's testimony. However, it apparently didn't phase the Mayor.
He simply got around Hank's testimony by accusing him of being
one of Ed's accomplices. Furthermore he explains Hank's being
"dragged deeper into Ed Walters' ploy" as the "greed factor".
Mr. Smith had already testified that Hank was "to get all movie
or TV rights." But if this is so, where is Hank's money? (I'm
sure he'd like to know.) One would think that Hank, if he had
made a deal with Ed and Ed didn't follow through, would be
WILLING to testify against Ed.

     According to Mr. Gray, Hank was not the only accomplice;
Ed's whole family was involved. I expect that Ed's family members
will have something to say about this.

     Mr. Gray is confident that the news media will report the
fine details of how the hoax was carried off because "they must
save face in the fact that they were taken in by the scheme as
were so many others." No doubt the news media will publish all
sorts of details, including those which support Ed's testimony.

     Mr. Gray criticized the MUFON investigators for "being so
wrapped up and biased in pursuit of the story that they fell
headfirst into that trap." He is clearly not aware that this
investigator, at least, started off assuming that the photos were
faked and that the whole story was a fabrication. He could read
the last chapter in Ed's book (or even the first few pages of
that chapter) to find out how I approached the case.  The MUFON
investigation required many hundreds of man hours of analysis and
study of the photographic evidence testimony and a similarly
intensive study of Ed and his activities over a six month period
(Nov. 1987 - May 1988). The MUFON investigation included the
reports of over a hundred other witnesses in the area. Only after
all of this exhaustive effort did MUFON officially endorse the
case. By way of contrast, the Mayor relied on "logic and reason"
(unbiased, of course) and the testimony of one person, Smith (who
is contradicted by another person, Boland!)

     The mayor's "unbiased"approach comes through forcefully in
the transcript of the conversation with Mr. Smith, which has been
published by The Sentinel. At the very beginning the Mayor
thanked Mr. Smith for coming forward ("I can't tell you how much
I appreciate...you getting with us...") and then said he wanted
to "get to the bottom of this whole issue and this whole, in my
opinion, hoax." The Mayor then said "...but right now we're
trying to deal with the facts." Mr. Gray criticized the MUFON
investigators for having "no expertise at investigation." On the
other hand, the interview of Mr. Smith is not exactly a model of
good investigatory technique.

     Mr. Gray is a courageous man and a clairvoyant. He knows he
is in for an argument and he correctly predicted in his letter
that his statement would bring forth an avalanche of comments
from "Ed, his supporters, and MUFON members aimed at discrediting
not only persons who are coming forth, but me as a skeptic in the
public eye." What Mr. Gray should realize is that information
which deserves to be discredited will be discredited.  Those who
loudly proclaim discredited information will have to suffer the
consequences.

     At the beginning of his letter the Mayor says he is thankful
that he has been fortunate to serve in public office as Mayor for
the last six years. I suggest that if he wishes to remain in that
position for another six years he should stick to the city budget
and ignore the UFO controversy raging around him.

                                               s/Bruce Maccabee

-END-



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Recap Of Gulf Breeze, Florida Sightings/Ed
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:23:38 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 348
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3138 alt.conspiracy:8633 sci.skeptic:17713




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

(628)   Wed 6 Jun 90 22:49
By: Jim Speiser
To: All
Re: Gulf Breeze at NUFOC 1/5
St:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:09ff 14c6b620
@MSGID: 1:114/37 6316d312
The following article was submitted by ParaNet Sysop John Hicks, and will also
be circulated as the file NUFOC90.TXT. Copyright (c) 1990 John Hicks and
ParaNet.


                  The Gulf Breeze mystery continues



by John B. Hicks

  The Gulf Breeze sightings have generated huge amounts of public
speculation, scientific bickering and dirty tricks. However, many people
in the Pensacola, Florida, area still see odd objects and lights in the
sky.
  The recent publication of The Gulf Breeze Sightings by Ed and Frances
Walters has, if anything, fanned the flames.
  "If you took that case, Ed's sightings and those of his family away, and
left everything else, you would still have a monumental amount of evidence
related to the UFO mystery," Dr. Bruce Maccabee said. "Between Nov. 11,
1987 and May 1, 1988, which is the time taken up by Ed's book, the time
that involved Ed Walters and Frances, I estimate that there were about 60
events which involved well over 130 witnesses in the Gulf Breeze area."
  Maccabee is a physicist employed by the U.S. Navy and a well-respected
UFO investigator.
  According to Maccabee, about 65 sightings have occured in the Pensacola
area since May, 1988.
  "I'm basing my statistics on cases that have been reported to MUFON," he
said.
  MUFON is the Mutual UFO Network, a large organization of UFO researchers,
investigators and enthusiasts.
  MUFON investigators Rex and Carol Salisbury have documented many UFO
sightings and contacts in the Pensacola area going back many years.
They made the following comments to the 1990 National
UFO Conference in Miami Beach, Florida. In the interest of clarity, since
they alternated speaking, I will quote the Salisburys as a team, rather
than individually.
  "There have been sightings all around the town (of Pensacola)," they
said. "Another area of intense activity is up around the university area."
  They said that the most of the witnesses they interviewed have had
multiple sightings.
  "We have also discovered that many of these witnesses have also had
missing time or other related UFO paranormal events or other types of
ESP events in their lives," the Salisburys said. "These witnesses come from
all walks of life, and they have seen a wide variety of UFO types, shapes
and sizes."
  On February 8, 1989, Jeff Thompson and his young son watched as a
brightly lighted object of about three feet in diameter landed in their
front yard. Thompson crept close to the object and illuminated it with a
flashlight.
  "The object suddenly emitted a bright, brilliant flash of light and
disappeared," the Salisburys said. "Upon questioning Jeff, we learned that
Jeff knew nothing at all of a previously-taken photo of a very small
craft."
  "In March of 1989 we interviewed a family who has had multiple sightings
and experiences over a two-year period in Pensacola, and as far back as 10
years ago when the honeymooning couple saw a UFO hovering over a mountain
in Pennsylvania," the Salisburys said. "Another family residing in the same
area has had a number of sightings dating back two or three years."
  The two families did not know each other.
  The Salisburys said that they have worked on several cases in an area
near a Navy installation. The cases involve witnesses who have had multiple
sightings and past experiences with UFO and related phenomena, some going
back into the 1920s.
  One witness is a 71-year-old woman who recently saw her back yard
flooded with light. She underwent hypnosis and learned that she had also
seen a bowtie-shaped object and a second light.
  "Her first experience was in 1925," the Salisburys said.
  In another experience about seven years ago, according to the Salisburys,
a young woman babysitting was sleeping on a couch when a noise awakened
her and the house shook. She saw a translucent hemispherical
object in the living room with her.
  The woman slipped into a bedroom to check the baby. While she was out
of the living room, there was another noise, the house again shook and the
object disappeared.
  She told the Salisburys that she looked out a window and saw three
orange balls streaking away across the yard and into the sky.
  In March of 1989 two women were driving home (to the mainland) from Gulf
Breeze when they noticed a white light that appeared to be pacing their
car. When they rounded a curve, they saw an object hovering over the road
in front of the car.
  The women stopped, got out of the car, and felt compelled to walk
toward the object. They bumped into the open car doors and stopped. When a car
approached, the object lifted straight up and vanished.
  A Pensacola-area woman who said a UFO abducted her in Germany 16 years ago
saw a UFO west of Pensacola in August of 1989. She told the Salisburys that
the UFO was identical to what she saw in Germany.
  In September, the same woman and her son saw two objects hover over their
house. Twenty similar sightings have occured in their area since then, and
the latest was in April 1990.
  On Nov. 30, 1989, a woman driving east from Gulf Breeze saw an
arrowhead-shaped object hover over a utility substation.
  In February of 1990 MUFON received 26 sighting reports, and in March the
organization received nine sighting reports.
  A large number of UFOs returned to Gulf Breeze in mid-April 1990.
  "We had sightings of lights almost every night for about a week," the
Salisburys said. At least two witnesses made videotapes of those objects.
  "Pensacola MUFON has submitted over 64 cases," the Salisburys said.
  On the night of Nov. 11, 1987, Ed Walters, a Gulf Breeze builder, saw and
photographed his first UFO. What set Walters apart from the other witnesses
was that he had a camera readily accessible, is what would be politely
described as stubborn, and had what could be called good luck as a UFO
photographer.
  Walters was not alone in his UFO sightings that day.
  In the decade up until Nov. 11, 1987, witnesses reported about 10
sightings a year.
  "All of a sudden, on that one day, we find out that there were eight or
nine sightings," Maccabee said. Other witnesses saw objects
similar to the one Walters saw beginning at about 2:30 that morning.
  I will not recount Ed and Frances Walters' story here, since they do so
in great detail in their book. Nor will I recount Dr. Bruce Maccabee's
analysis of Ed and Frances Walters' photographs, since he does so in the
paper he presented to MUFON.
  Since that Veterans' Day in 1987, Ed Walters has taken 41 pictures of
possibly four different objects with five cameras. He has come under
fire that his photographs were a hoax, possibly because they appeared
too sharp and clear. Many other people took pictures before, during and
after the period of his sightings, and several witnesses made videotapes.
Walters made a videotape during one of his close encounters.
  Critics bandied about hoax and conspiracy theories.
  "You can't say there wasn't a conspiracy, but you can't establish a
connection," Maccabee said. Also it appears that a large number of people
would have to be in on a conspiracy.
  Maccabee examined several possible methods of hoaxing the photographs in
his paper and found each to be either readily detectable or impossible to
carry out. He also determined that Ed Walters would not have had the
knowledge or equipment to carry out a hoax.
  "You're going to do something to destroy your roots?" Walters said. "Some
would do something like that, but not a normal sane father."
  I described to Maccabee a method that could be used to hoax
photographs that would pass most, if not all, of the tests he used to
examine Walters' photographs. He was not familiar with the material and
methods I described. He then pointed out that the events of the March
17, 1988 sighting and photographs would have precluded any manipulation of
photographs by Walters.
  Maccabee said that on that date, a witness (Peter Newman) opened the
sealed Polaroid film boxes, loaded Walters' cameras and wrote down the
serial numbers of the film packs. Newman was also keeping track of the film
counter of each camera. Walters took several unplanned souvenir pictures of
people who had joined the small group.
  Because of the cold weather the spectators left, but several
pretended to leave and returned in the darkness. They could not see
Walters because of bushes and a restroom facility building. They
could, however, see the treetops above Walters' position.
  Maccabee said that the witnesses saw two flashes in rapid succession
illuminate the treetops. A few moments later they saw Walters run out of
the bushes to his truck and turn on the headlights. The witnesses gathered
around and watched the pictures develop, and those pictures showed a UFO.
  "Those people watched the film develop, which means the photos had to
have been taken shortly before," Maccabee said. "There was no time in the
middle to diddle with stuff."
  Maccabee said that he had experimented with trying to slow or stop the
film development, even by freezing the film. He said that he managed only
a slight slowdown in development, certainly not enough to have been part of
a hoax.
  Critics have suggested that someone may have been showing Walters
something to photograph, such as a balloon. However, weather conditions
that night would rule out a balloon.
  Ed Walters said that the weather was cold and nasty that night.
  "The wind was coming right off the water," Frances Walters said.
  Hoax theories and debunking efforts still abound.
  "I don't know how they (debunkers) sleep at night," Ed Walters said.
"What is so intimidating about these photos that would cause such a
reaction among the debunkers?"
  Lately articles have appeared in some newspapers in which the primary
source of information has been Willy Smith. MUFON has distanced itself from
Smith, who was originally an investigator involved in Walters' case. Smith
was implicated in a debunking effort in which an image of a Gulf
Breeze-type UFO appeared in a photograph of the Chrysler Building in New
York City.
  Smith claimed that Ed Walters took the picture.
  UFO investigator Antonio Huneeus and commercial photographer Manuel
Fernandez came forward and stated that Huneeus had Fernandez make the
photograph for study and experimental purposes. They said that it
was not an Ed Walters photograph.
  Smith has also claimed that the so-called ghost pictures show
that Walters was familiar with making multiple exposures before he made the
UFO photographs.
  Walters said that Smith has taken the entire ghost picture idea out of
context. He said that it is a game he plays with various teenage visitors
to his house, and that the game is that the ghost is "in" you, not beside
you.
  He said that he first takes normal pictures of several people. For the
picture of the person the ghost is "in" he focuses the camera for
long-distance and takes the picture with the subject about four feet away.
  The flash on his Polaroid camera makes the subject's eyes turn completely
white, and the subject is a little blurry. That is what he calls a ghost
picture. It involves no multiple exposures.
  The picture Willy Smith has shown as a ghost picture is of a teenage girl
standing in front of a sliding glass door. It shows blobs of light near the
girl.
  Maccabee said that he has confirmed that fingerprints and smudges on
glass can cause similar reflections without the glass itself reflecting
light. Frances Walters said that she had never cleaned that glass door.
  The mysterious blue beam that appears in Walters' photographs and other
witnesses' reports has also brought forth much speculation.
  "It can lift you up, it can hold you down," Maccabee said.
  Walters said, "The blue beam stops you from moving; the white flash, I
believe, if it strikes you on the head, incapacitates you."
  "I don't know that, but I believe it's true," he said.
  Walters explained how he captured the picture of the blue beam
and Frances running in the doorway. He said that he was going outside while
holding the camera up, and that the blue beam suddenly flashed just where
he was about to step. At that time, Frances ran inside and he pushed the
shutter release without even looking through the viewfinder.
  A new apparent debunking attempt is underway.
  An advertisement appeared in the Pensacola newspaper. The ad states,
"Hoax UFO balloons are illegal." The advertisement text then says that
anyone who sees or knows of UFO balloons should call a certain telephone
number.
  "That's a Phil Klass phone number," Walters said. Walters also pointed
out that the 1990 MUFON symposium will be in early July in Pensacola.
He said that it would not be surprising if someone found a UFO balloon just
in time for the symposium.
  Walters also mentioned a flyer that someone stuffed in Gulf Breeze
mailboxes referring to him. It said, in part, "Many of our sources report
how often this UFO nut can be seen drunk at local taverns."
  He said that the debunker obviously did not know that Santa Rosa County
is dry, therefore there are no local taverns.
  "There is certainly a difference between an honest skeptic and a
debunker," Walters said. "A debunker is compelled to convince all others
that there is no such thing as a UFO; therefore, Gulf Breeze should be
swept away."
  "I think probably most of you understand now, if you don't you should,
that Gulf Breeze is not just Ed and Frances Walters," Walters said.
  "It would be almost as strange as a UFO to imagine that you can reject
Ed's case as being a hoax and accept all the rest of them as being real,"
Maccabee said.
  Walters declined to identify Believer Bill and Jane, two people
who anonymously gave pictures of UFOs similar to those Walters saw to the
Gulf Breeze Sentinel. He said that he knows their identity.
  "I might have said it (Believer Bill's name) publicly a few times, and I
might have hurt him," Walters said. "It's not up to me to denigrate or
expose someone who doesn't want to be exposed."
  "It's job-related suicide for some professions," he said.
  He acknowledged that he may have erred in trying to remain anonymous, but
said he was trying to protect his family.
  "I probably made the mistake that if you don't come forward, the news
media will turn into a school of sharks," Walters said. "But if you don't
come forward it almost makes it worse, because then they are going to track
you down."
  "They'll try their best to leap upon you from the bushes," he said.
  "For two years I tried my best to shun publicity," Walters said. "If they
(debunkers) hadn't attacked so viciously, the book wouldn't have been
written."
  On Jan. 8, 1990, witnesses saw another UFO, and this time the military
apparently took an interest.
  Ed Walters said that he and Frances were out walking near the Methodist
Church in Gulf Breeze when they saw a large red light in the sky.
  "We'd been criticized early on for not always dancing to a phone and
calling somebody, so in this case, we said well, what the heck, we'll run
back to the house, take a chance that it's still going to be there, and
we'll call people," Walters said. "I ran to the phone and started to call
investigators."
  Walters reached two answering machines and a paging machine. He then
called Duane Cook and a friend who he had promised he would call, and they
said they were on the way.
  "This was all on faith that the object was still in the sky," he said. "I
didn't know, I was still inside."
  "It could have already gone and then I would look very foolish because
everybody would have come a'running and I'd be embarrassed," Walters said.
  Walters said, "I started to put together this new camera I'd purchased."
He said that he started running back toward the church while still trying
to attach the lens to the camera.
  Duane Cook and his son arrived and both saw the object. Two other people
approached and now the object was visible to six people gathered near the
church.
  "I could see through the zoom lens this black disc," Walters said. He
said that the disc was visible against a moonlit cloud cover.
  Walters and city councilwoman Brenda Pollak took some photographs.
Walters' camera had a zoom lens with a maximum focal length of about 200
mm., and Pollak had a 300 mm. lens on her camera. However, both had their
cameras set on automatic exposure and the cameras automatically set long
exposures.
  Walters' photograph shows a red blurry blob.
  "The critics and the debunkers would have me being a photo expert, some
kind of genius," he said.
  Just after Walters made his exposure, the red light went out or, as
others reported, the disc turned over.
  Pollak then took her photograph. Her photograph shows an image that looks
like multi-colored pearls on a string.
  Maccabee said that the light changed colors 110 times during Pollak's
three-second exposure. Since the camera was handheld with the 300 mm. lens,
the image was a snakelike line with a blob of different colored light for
each time the light changed colors.
  "I think this is a phenomenal picture," Walters said. "It doesn't solve
anything, it just adds to the questions."
  "Some of the witnesses remember seeing a white light while the picture
was being taken," Walters said. "We don't know we've captured this odd
effect until the film comes out."
  The object then vanished, apparently into the low-lying cloud cover.
  Walters said that moments later, about six helicopters approached from
the direction of Pensacola Naval Air Station. "There's no question where
those helicopters came from," he said.
  He said that the helicopters approached the area of the church,
illuminated floodlights and searched the area around the church. The object
had been directly over the church when it vanished.
  A Navy chief, who was not an official spokesman, first told an
investigator that the Naval Air Station dispatched the helicopters on a
Search and Rescue mission. According to Walters, the investigator pressed
further and the chief told the investigator, "You know what's been going on
over there, you guess."
  Another red light appeared near the bridge from Gulf Breeze to Pensacola
on the night of April 18, 1990, and many witnesses took photographs while
several made videotapes. Maccabee said that he has most of the
negatives and videotapes.
  Ed and Frances Walters' experiences have given them what could be called
an insiders' perspective on the UFO phenomenon.
  "The toughest part is not understanding," Ed Walters said. "I don't like
the idea that there may be something out there that may be a threat."
  Frances Walters said, "For every answer that you come up with, you seem
to come up with a lot more questions."
  "Sometimes I think we haven't learned a darn thing," she said.
  A participant at the conference asked Ed Walters if he is ready for
another visit from the visitors.
  "If they come symbolically to my front door, and they knock on the door,
and they say, 'Hi, we're travelers from afar. Can we come in?' I'll open
the door," Walters said. "If they try to come in the back door, in the
darkness, and invade my household, I will resist and I will fight back."

                                  ###

Copyright 1990 John B. Hicks

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: -=<SWAMP GAS>=- ParaNet Zeta Reticuli 602-951-3431 HST (1:114/37)


--
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/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Bruce Maccabee refutes Salisberry's findings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:25:12 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3139 alt.conspiracy:8634 sci.skeptic:17714




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

11/8/90

            REANALYSIS OF PHOTO #19 SUPPORTS WALTERS' STORY

                                by

                          Bruce Maccabee



  In his initial testimony regarding the "Road Shot (Photo #19), Ed Walters
reported that he had been driving along highway 191-B at about 6:00 PM on
Jan. 12, 1988 when a brilliant white light suddenly entered the cab of his
truck. This caused him to lose some sensation of feeling in his hands and
forearms. He said that he momentarily lost control of the truck and swerved
to the left hand side of the road and then onto the left side shoulder. As
this was happening he observed a UFO moving above and ahead of him and, as
he managed to stop the truck on the left shoulder, the UFO was hovering
several hundred feet ahead over the road. Ed said he had his Polaroid
camera with him in the truck. He grabbed the camera and took the picture
(Photo #19). But then he realized the object was moving and he had the
impression that it was going to come back and hit him with the white beam
again. He immediately crawled under the truck where he would be completely
shielded. Unfortunately his legs were still protruding as the UFO did,
indeed, shine the white beam down on him again.

  The complete story of the Road Shot (and Ed's other sightings) is told
in his book, The Gulf Breeze Sightings (Morrow, NY, 1990). This is a
must-read for anyone who wants to understand the historical context of
Photo 19, the stereo photos of May 1 (which will be referred to later) and
of all of the Gulf Breeze Sightings. Technical analysis is provided in A
History of the Gulf Breeze Sightings (updated version available from the
Fund for UFO Research). For the purposes of this discussion the description
given above of how Photo #19 happened to be taken is sufficient.

  During the initial analysis of Photo 19, in the spring of 1988, it was
assumed that the bright irregular image within the image of the road was
the reflection of light from a non-uniformly radiating source within the
glowing bottom of the UFO, and that the UFO was actually over the
reflection. This seemingly reasonable assumption allowed the size of the
UFO to be estimated in the following way. First the location of the
reflection was determined by projecting a sighting line across the road in
the direction of a "tree bump" in the skyline that appears above the image
of the UFO. As a person walked along the sighting line form the camera
position toward the tree bump he crossed the road and actually walked
through the location of the reflection. Since the reflection image partially
obscured the yellow line in the road, it was assumed that where the sighting
line crossed the yellow line was the approximate location of the
reflection, and hence the approximate location of the UFO. Measurements
made on the site yielded a distance of about 185 feet from the camera to
where the sighting line crossed the yellow line, When this distance was
combined with the size of the UFO image on the film the size of the actual
UFO could be calculated. It was found to be about 7.5 ft across the bottom
bright area, about 9 feet high and about 12 feet across the mid-section.

  The calculation of the UFO size is the extent of the analysis that has
been published to this date. However, in an unpublished calculation done
during the summer of 1988, I used the RI to estimate the size of the
illuminated area on the road. A simplified calculation showed that it had to
be quite long in the dimensions along the line of sight. In fact, I
estimated it to be about 80 feet long, if its center were 185 feet from the
camera. Although this was a surprise to me, I simply attributed this to
light coming out from the bottom of the UFO in a non-circular pattern at
very flat angles (i.e., nearly horizontal). This seemed odd, but it
certainly didn't violate physics.

  Recently Rex and Carol Salisberry, in reevaluating the Walters sightings,
carried out an independent analysis of the RI in Photo #19. Being unaware
of my 1988 calculation of the elliptical spot on the road they proceeded
from another assumption. They assumed, for unstated reasons, that light
could only come downward from the UFO in a direction roughly parallel to
the (nearly) vertical axis of the UFO. Combining this assumption with my
estimate of the bottom diameter (7.5 feet) they concluded that if the UFO
were real, then it would illuminate a spot on the road that would be only
slightly larger than the bottom of the UFO itself. That is, they claimed
that the illuminated spot on the road would have been nearly circular and
only about 7.5 to 8 feet in diameter. They then used simple photogrammetric
and trigonometric calculations to predict what the size of the RI should be
under their assumptions. They predicted that the RI should appear as a very
thin line in Photo 19. Since it is, in fact, a very fat line (measured
vertically), it disagrees with their prediction. Hence, they claimed that
the RI could not have been caused by an actual reflection in the road since
to do so would be a virtual physical impossibility (Salisberry, Interim
Report on the Reopening of the Walters UFO Case, 23 Sept. 1990). The
discovery of this "physical impossibility" led them to further conclude
that the RI must have been faked (by double exposure) with the logical
consequence that the whole photo, the story, etc. were all faked.

 It is of great importance to note that their result follows directly
(after some simple math) from their assumption that light from the UFO
could only travel downwards (roughly) parallel to the axis. If they had
allowed for the possibility that light could travel outward from the bottom
of the UFO at very flat angles then they would have seen that the spot on
the road could be much larger than the bottom of the UFO. This is the
result I obtained in the summer of 1988.

  My reanalysis of Photo #19 is based on the assumption that the RI really
was caused by light reflected from the road. Starting from this assumption
I have estimated the nearest and farthest points of the reflection. The
distances from the camera to these points were estimated by combining
on-site measurements with measurements on the photographs. By measurement
it was found that the sighting line from the camera toward the tree bump
crosses the near edge of the road at a distance of about 90 feet from the
camera and the far edge of the road about 490 feet from the camera. The
illuminated spot on the road lies between these two distances. Using
photogrammetric techniques involving angles that are determined by
measurements on the photographs, I estimated that the closest point of the
illuminated area to the camera (the lowest point of the RI) was about 180
feet away, and the farthest point was about 305 feet away. (These distances
could easily be off by 10 feet either way because of the low precision in
measuring the actual boundary positions of the images.) Similarly, the
width of the illuminated area was about 8 feet. Thus the spot on the road
was approximately a thin ellipse with the long axis running along the
sighting line to the UFO. (These calculations did not take into account the
slight downward slope to the road from the centerline toward the edge. To
take this into account would require a much more complicated analysis and a
very accurate survey of the road. If the downward slope were to be taken
into account it would likely decrease by a small amount the calculated
length of the illuminated area.)

  Although the illuminated area is highly elongated, there is no physical
reason why such an area could not be produced by a UFO (or by a
conventional light source). Thus this analysis shows that the RI is not a
"virtual physical impossibility" and it cannot be used as proof that Photo
19 is hoaxed. However, the analysis does raise the question of how the
highly elongated illuminated area might have been produced.

  One way would be for the UFO to be over the far end of the reflection,
for example, and emanating a very elliptical (in cross-section_ beam in the
direction of Ed's truck, but pointed downward so that it hit the road.
Alternatively, the UFO might be over the center of the illuminated area,
directing light downwards and both toward and away from the truck. Yet a
third possibility is that the UFO is farther away from the truck than the
illuminated area and is directing a beam downwards and toward the truck. It
is this last possibility which I find most interesting.

  It is important to realize that a previous assumption can be arbitrarily
rejected. Previously I and others had assumed that the UFO was actually
over the illuminated spot on the road. With this assumption it was possible
to calculate the size of the UFO based on the image size and on the
measured distance to the reflection (assumed to be rather compact and
centered about 185 feet away). Thus the assumption was necessary for the
previous analysis. However, it was not justifiable since the distance to an
object cannot (generally) be estimated from a single photograph.

  The distance to an object can be calculated from a stereo pair of
photographs, however, and Ed obtained just such a pair on May 1, 1988. The
details of this sighting are in Ed's book. The information which is
important here is that, using a stereo camera with a two foot baseline, Ed
photographed two UFOs, the larger of which looks like the UFO in the Road
Shot (see Ed's book for further details). These stereo photos also have
images of lights which were at a known large distance. The images of the
distant lights allowed the cameras to be calibrated for parallax. After the
calibration had been done it was found that the UFO was about 475 feet away
(over water!) and nearly 15 feet in diameter across the bottom. Thus its
width was nearly twice the value which I had originally estimated for the
Road Shot UFO (about 7.5 feet).

  Assume, now, that the size of the Road Shot UFO was the same as the size
of the large May 1 UFO. Since the image size corresponds to a bottom
diameter of 7.5 feet at 185 foot distance, then it also corresponds to a
diameter of 15 feet at about 370 feet.

  If the UFO were actually 370 feet from the camera (but still over the
road) the sighting line crossed the far side of the road at 490 feet), then
the UFO would have been 65 feet from the farthest point of the reflection
(at 305 feet from the camera). Hence the only way that light could get from
the UFO to the illuminated spot on the road would be if the UFO projected a
beam of light 65 feet toward the truck but downward at a slight angle so
that the beam hit the road. The color of the RI suggests that this beam of
light was white or pale yellow.

  A reconstruction of the Road Shot scene, with the illuminated spot
between the camera and the UFO, is presented in Figure 1. This
reconstruction can explain a puzzling fact about the RI: its high level of
brightness. Under the previous assumption that the UFO was directly over
the reflection I carried out tests with a powerful, 100,000 candlepower
spotlight shining directly down onto the road. This reflection of the beam
on the road made film images that were much, much less bright than the RI.
Hence I had to assume that there was an extremely intense (much, much more
than 100,000 candlepower) source of light within the UFO.

  This new reconstruction can explain the brightness of the RI quite easily
without resort to extremely intense light sources within the UFO. It is
well known that virtually any surface, even a rough black surface like a
road, can give a strong reflection in the forward direction when
illuminated by light at a grazing angle. This is the phenomenon of forward
gloss (a rough, diffuse reflector becomes nearly a specular reflector at
grazing incidence). This particular case, with the beam from the UFO
hitting the road at a flat angle (several degrees) and the camera viewing
the illuminated area at a flat angle (about a degree), is virtually
"optimized" for the forward gloss effect. Experiments with a spotlight have
confirmed this effect at the site of the Road Shot. Hence it is reasonable
to conclude that the RI is a result of a moderately intense beam of light,
like that from a powerful flashlight, projected downward at a slight angle
from the UFO, incident at nearly a grazing angle on the road and reflected
in the direction of the truck.

  Although the photograph itself provides no information which would allow
us to choose which is the actual situation (e.g., UFO over the center of
the reflection, UFO at the far end of the reflection, UFO beyond the
reflection, etc.), the context of the situation does provide enough
supplementary information to suggest a choice. ED described being hit by a
white light before he ran off the road. He said that after he took the Road
Shot he climbed under the truck because he thought the UFO was going to
zap him again with the white light. (He says that the UFO did just that
while he was crawling under the truck.) What might have caused him to think
that the UFO was going to direct the white light at him again? Could it be
that the white light was contained within a beam from the UFO and that Ed
realized that the beam was hitting the road just ahead of him after he took
Photo 19? Perhaps the white spot on the road, made by the beam, started
moving slowly toward the truck just after Ed took the picture. Under these
circumstances, he might well have concluded that the object was going to
try to hit him again with the beam.

  Although there is no direct photographic evidence that the RI was made by
a white beam on the road, the preceding discussion shows that the existence
of such a beam would be consistent with Ed's story and with the brightness
of the RI. The existence of a beam also allows the UFO to be further from
the truck than the reflection and this, in turn, means that the UFO in the
Road Shot could have been then same size as was the "large size Type 1 UFO"
in the May 1 stereo photos.


                                CONCLUSION

  The preceding analysis shows that the sample of the RI is not a "physical
impossibility" and hence does not prove the Road Shot is a hoax as claimed
by Rex and Carol Salisberry.

  A reconstruction of the Road Shot scene based on this reanalysis supports
Ed's story by demonstrating that the RI may actually have been caused by the
white light, which Ed described, in the form of a beam projected from the
UFO toward the truck.

  Note:  Photo 14 also has an RI underneath the image of the UFO. The RI is
quite non-circular and can be explained in a manner similar to the
explanation of the RI in Photo 19.



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Ed Walters/Gulfbreeze refutes Willy Smith
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:26:14 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 77
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3140 alt.conspiracy:8635 sci.skeptic:17715




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The following was provided by  Mr. Edward Walters, a central
figure in the Gulf Breeze UFO flap.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


July 13, 1989

This testimony from Antonio Huneeus and Manuel Fernandez
demonstrates that Willy Smith's efforts to debunk the Gulf
Breeze sightings have been motivated, emotional and fraudulent.

Antonio Huneeus said, "In Feb. 1989, I mailed a letter to Willy
Smith with a fake Gulf Breeze type UFO photo which was done for
research, showing a UFO hovering over the N.Y. Chrysler Building.
I told Smith that I knew the photographer and even forwarded the
photographer's phone number. I knew the photo was a fake and
only thought it was an interesting copy that Willy Smith would
like to see.  Later, (Feb. 27, 1989) Willy Smith mailed out a
statement about the photo and said, 'Here is a copy of one of the
photos allegedly taken by Ed Walters.'  I, Antonio Huneeus want
to go on the record and report that Willy Smith's statement is
not true and he knows it."

Manuel Fernandez is the professional photographer who made
the fake photos.  Manuel said, "It is not true that Ed Walters took
the (Chrysler Bldg.) UFO photo.  Willy Smith even called me and
asked if I could fake some more. He sent me a color daytime
print of Ed Walter's yard and asked me to fake a Gulf Breeze type
UFO on them.  I was suspicious but made the photos and sent
 them (slides) to Willy Smith.

With his fake photo evidence in hand, Willy Smith wrote a letter to
Robert Reid on April 6, 1989.  Smith said, "I wonder if the
3 photos, taken in the same exact location as the Nov. 11, 1987
photos which I have received anonymously from Gulf Breeze,
were sent by you."  W. Smith also wrote a letter to Dr. Maccabee
in which he repeated that he received these photos "anonymously."

Manuel, the photographer said, "I did not send the 3 photos
anonymously, this is not true.  I made them at Willy Smith's
request, using the print that he sent of Ed's yard.  I don't want
anything to do with Willy Smith, he is not telling the truth and
I won't cover up for him.  This is not what a true scientist would
do."

Willy Smith as been a constant fountain of fake stories that he
supports with fake evidence.  Willy Smith has even changed his
educational background from an Engineering PhD by claiming
to have a Masters in Astronomy and Physics and a PhD in
Physics.  Two letters from the U. of Michigan verify that he does
not have a Masters in Astronomy and Physics nor a PhD in
Physics.

Since Willy Smith has exposed himself as a hoaxer, I will treat
him as such and ignore him.  There are serious UFO questions to
be studied from which Willy Smith has disqualified himself.

Sincerely,

Antonio Huneeus
Manuel Fernandez
Edward Walters


--
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Debunkers v/s Believers re: Gulf Breeze.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:27:46 GMT
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3141 alt.conspiracy:8636 sci.skeptic:17716




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


TIMES, St. Petersburg, FL - July 8, 1990


DEBUNKERS vs BELIVERS
   Tales of another  world  are  not  alien  to  the national UFO
convention.

by Chris Lavin
   Times Staff Writer


     PENSACOLA - Sitting  in  the  lobby  of  the  Hilton  Hotel,
Gilbert Landis turned to the  person  next to him and , without a
giggle, said this:
     "I'm here because 10,500  years  ago  my  wife  and I made a
mistake."
     A few seats over, Clark McClelland  from Orlando was talking
about secret  autopsies  performed  on  alien  creatures and Nazi
scientists who escaped to secret Antarctic  bases where they have
been building flying saucers.
     Just down the hall, a preacher  lectured  about UFOs and the
Bible. The parting of the Red  Sea,  he said may have been caused
by the propulsion system of an alien spacecraft.
     So it went during the weekend at the  national convention of
the  Mutual  UFO  Network   (MUFON)  -  an  annual  gathering  of
scientists and others who belive the aliens have landed.
     If this was any other year in any other city, the convention
would probably drift off like a UFO,  an oddity never to be heard
of again. But  this  was  Pensacola,  and  it  seems  most of the
population of nearby Gulf  Breeze  had reported a UFO sighting in
recent years.
     So the conventation took on  special  meaning - to those who
belive in the extra terrestrial  and  those  who spend their time
challenging UFO believers.
     Specifically, most  of  the  Believers  and  Debunkers  came
loaded for a  showdown  over  photographs  taken  by  Gulf Breeze
builder Ed  Walters.  The  photos  purported  to  show a UFO that
Walters says hovered over  his  home,  paralyzed  him with a blue
beam and left him and his wife, Francis, scared and bewildered.
     Since the publication of his book  - titled "The Gulf Breeze
Sightings: The Most Astounding Multiple Sightings of UFOs in U.S.
History - Walters has been accused  by Debunkers of using a model
and trick photography to perpetrate a fraud.
     The battling has been, well, out of this world.
     "It's  the  wildest,  most  preposterious  story  I've  ever
heard," says Philip J.  Klass,  a  longtime  UFO  debunker. "Just
think of it. Multiple visits to the same house, little creatures,
voices in his head, talking about bananas."
     Yes, Walters says, it  does  seem  odd.  But  he insists the
evidence and sightings by  hundreds  of  others, including a Gulf
Breeze town council member, corroborate his story.
     Walter's story began November 11,  1987, when he saw the UFO
and snapped photographs. This encounter was close and continual -
recurring through numerous sightings during the next three years.
     Walters says the UFO called him  "Zehass,"  and he recounted
conversations apparently coming  from  the UFO. In one encounter,
Walters  told  of  hearing  alien   voices  speaking  in  Spanish
complaining about being fed too many bananas. "I know this sounds
bizarre," Walters wrote, "and I was tempted not to tell about it,
but bananas are what they were talking about."
     Walters says he was hungry for  an  explaination  of what he
had seen. He notified MUFON  investigators  and passed his photos
on to the Gulf Breeze Sentinel, a small weekly paper that reports
UFO sightings.
     But as  word  of  Walters'  photos  spread,  more  and  more
residents of this Gulf Coast town reported seeing the UFO.
     Walters soon learned a quick lesson about UFO sightings: The
person who says he or she saw  the  UFO will be closely examined.
Walters was plunged into  the  little-known  but  continuous  war
between the Believers and the Debunkers - both of whom questioned
Walters for their own purposes.
     When the analysis was  done,  the  outcome  was  no suprise.
MUFON investigators backed Walters  and his photos, skeptics such
as Klass were not convinced.  "You  know,  Walters is a convicted
felon," Klass says. "Yes, car theft and forgery. He's slick, real
slick."
     But Walters says his problems with the law dated back to his
teen years. As an  adult,  he  says,  he  has  been  a successful
builder and a pillar of the community.
     With Gulf Breeze being the  hottest  UFO  spot in the world,
MUFON decided to bring its  annual  conference to Pensacola. When
the 600 or so MUFON  members  arrived  Friday,  they found a city
split over the  reality  of  UFOs,  but  unified  on the economic
impact of this convention.
     A Gulf Breeze  jewlery  company  had  created  "Gulf  Breeze
Sighting" watches and  medallions.  There were T-shirts featuring
Walters' blue beam,  and  visitors  could  pay to be photographed
with a life-sized statue of the Gulf Breeze alien.
     But even as the conference began,  it was clear west Florida
wasn't going to claim a special  place  in  UFO history without a
big fight.
     In recent weeks  22-year-old  Tommy  Smith  of Pensacola has
told reporters  he  helped  Walters  create  double-exposure  UFO
photographs.  And the Pensacola News  Journal reported that a UFO
model similar to  Walters'  photos  was  found  hidden in a house
formerly owned by Walters.
     But in an impassioned speech,  Walters  said evidence proves
Smith's claims are false.  The model,  Walters says, was found to
be constructed  by  materials  discarded  from  his  construction
business  in  1989,   two   years   after  he  made  his  initial
photographs.
     Debunkers, Walters  alleges,  constructed  and  planted  the
model to discredit him.
     The  new  allegations  have  stirred  MUFON  to  reopen  its
analysis of the Gulf Breeze  sightings,  but if the atmosphere at
this convention is any  indicator,  don't expect investigators to
undermine Walters' claim.
     This convention drew  a  wide  variety  of  UFO  types.  But
virtually all shared  a  strong  belief  in  UFOs  and an equally
strong belief that the U.S. government is hiding vast storehouses
of information on UFOs and alien life.
     There were scientists such  as  Brian  T.  O'Leary, a former
NASA astronomer and Princeton University instructor, who says his
own psychic experiences have convinced him that the United States
needs a new science  that  can  explain  psychic  phenomena  and,
perhaps, UFOs.
     "I began commuinicating telepathically, I experienced moving
out of my body and floating over cities,  I healed myself with my
mind," O'Leary said.
     And then there were  other  Believers  who  lacked O'Leary's
academic credentials, but had stories to tell.
     Landis, for example, the 10,500-year-old San Diego resident,
said NASA  and  the  U.S.  government  is  secretly  aware  of  a
60-member "Universal Association of Planets" whose spaceships are
Earth's UFOs.
     "You know what the astronauts  saw  on  the back side of the
moon?"  Landis  said.   "There  was  a  refueling  station  and a
structure that looked very much like  a hotel.  And the canals on
Mars?  Dry docks for space ships."
     Landis'  treatise  on  the  history   of  the  universe  was
interrupted by McClelland, who wants  everyone to know that Earth
is simply a giant genetic experiment  being orchestrated by alien
life.
     But all at this convention seemed  unified by a belief there
is something out there and we all need to learn more about it.
     Many are like George Kruse, a  free-lance  photographer from
California who was drawn  to  MUFON  when  he discovered during a
hypnosis session that he had been abducted by aliens.
     "I was taken and I couldn't move," Kruse says.  "They looked
down my throat and inserted  a  needle  (into  me).  I remember I
didn't like it."


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Statement from Florida SD Don Ware
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:28:53 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 52
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3142 alt.conspiracy:8637 sci.skeptic:17717




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The following was sent to me from Donald M. Ware with permission
to upload it here.  Don is Florida state director of MUFON and has
been overseeing the Gulf Breeze UFO investigation.  He is a retired
Air Force officer (Lt. Colonel) now residing in Ft. Walton Beach, FL.


DBC
7-19-88

---------------------------------------------------------------------

POSITION STATEMENT ON THE 1987-88 UFO SIGHTINGS
OF GULF BREEZE, FL

     As MUFON State Director living only 44 miles from Gulf Breeze,
I have helped coordinate the activities of seven local investigators
and three internationally known investigators of the many UFO
reports in this area.  There have been at least 68 reports of objects
that, after various amounts of investigation, we have not been able
to identify as either naturally produced or made by man.  These
include 135 witnesses of which 4 reported alien beings, 6 reported
blue beams, and 9 reported periods of missing time suggesting
abductions.  Over 60 UFO photographs have been taken.

     I am convinced that these sightings are proof of alien visitation.
The level of technology demonstrated indicates they can come and
go at will and can reside in a variety of places: the bottom of our
oceans, inside major high altitude ice fields, in earth orbit, on the
moon, on Mars, etc..

     One might ask why one couple in Gulf Breeze has been allowed
18 photographic sessions. The most obvious reason to me is the
aliens want people to see the photographs.  I hope this causes more
people to give serious thought to the idea that we, as an intelligent
species, are not alone in the universe.


Donald M. Ware


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: 10/30/90 Letter To Pensacola Newspaper
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:29:51 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 83
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3143 alt.conspiracy:8638 sci.skeptic:17718





The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The following is a letter from Don Ware and Charles Flannigan
concerning a recent article in the Pensacola News Journal
dealing with the Ed Walters UFO photographs.  The letter was
sent to both the Pensacola News Journal and the Gulf Breeze
Sentinel.

---------------------------------------------------------------

October 30, 1990

Dear Editor,

   As the primary investigators of the famous Gulf Breeze UFO
case now involving over 70 photographs, Charles Flannigan
and I feel we must comment on the "road shot."  This photo,
#19, has received doubtful comment in newspapers and TV
recently.  One investigator said that the reflection on the road
doesn't form a round spot, so the photo most be a double
exposure.  A careful look at the surface of Shoreline Drive,
191B where the UFO hovered, will help explain the reflection
resulting from the large bright light source on the bottom of
the UFO.

   Looking down on the surface, you can see that about 30% is
mostly white with some tan rock.  This rock has a hard smooth
surface.  It is embedded in comparatively soft dark asphalt,
and the light colored rocks have become oriented with mostly
flat surfaces up.  Over time, some asphalt has worn away 1 to
2 millimeters below the hard rock surfaces.  A series of photos
taken with a 100,000 candlepower light shining at various
angles on the road shows enhanced reflectivity at shallow
angles.  This seems to be the result of spectral reflection from
the light colored rocks.  Because the asphalt is worn down
below the surface of the rock, only the rock is visible when
looking farther down the road.  This causes more photons to
reach the camera than you would normally expect from
light reflected at a small angle.  Now the shape of the
reflection from the UFO becomes easier to understand.

   For those who still have doubts about the authenticity
of this photo, you might look carefully at two photos in a
copy of THE GULF BREEZE SIGHTINGS.  Turn to page 129 and
look at the daylight photo of the road.  Compare the brightness
of the double-yellow line between the hood and windshield
wiper with the brightness near the spot where the UFO hovered.
Now look one page back at photo #19 and make the same
comparison. (Good light is helpful here.) The double-yellow
line appears brighter near the UFO.  This tells us that light
from the UFO is reflecting off the line; hence, NO DOUBLE
EXPOSURE (emphasis theirs).

   We have had the good fortune of getting to know Ed and
Frances Walters well since our extensive investigation of the
many Gulf Breeze UFO encounters of 1987 and '88.  They are
two of the most considerate, hard-working, and lovable people
we know.  They have shown great courage and composure
under public attack by several UFO debunkers.  We wish them
the best of luck in all of their endeavors, whether it is a $1-a-
year job or the sale of a mind-broadening book.


Charles D. Flannigan
MUFON Field Investigator
State Director

Donald M. Ware
MUFON Field Investigator
Eastern Region Director


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
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/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: 11/10/88 Gulf Breeze Sentinel Articles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:31:33 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 215
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3144 alt.conspiracy:8639 sci.skeptic:17719




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The following brief articles appeared in the November 10, 1988
issue of The Sentinel, Gulf Breeze, Florida.  This issue discusses
some of the highlights of the UFO sightings that have
occurred in the area over the past year.  The first article is by the
primary photographer "Ed".  Others are written by: Donald Ware,
Florida state MUFON director; and Duane Cook, editor of The
Sentinel.  The articles are reproduced here with the permission
of The Sentinel.

------------------------------------------------------------------

ED SHARES PAST YEAR'S EXPERIENCES ON UFO SIGHTING'S
ANNIVERSARY

     On Nov. 11, 1987, as I opened the front door and stared at the
glowing object partly obscured by several pine trees, I stepped
into a phenomena that jolted me to the reality of UFOs.  A
phenomena that is being witnessed all over the world and here
at home by dozens of our fellow residents.  This reality may be
hard to accept for those who have not had a sighting, so I do not
try to convince or persuade.  I have only reported my personal
sightings and incidents as they happened.

     The resulting photographs and video tape I took of the UFO
have been validated by computer imaging (Dr. Maccabee, physicist
with the U.S. Navy).  And, of course, there are otheres who feel
differently and offer little other than opinions.

     When I was asked to use a 4 lens Nimslo 3-D sealed camera,
I did.  When I was asked to use the SRS (Self Referencing Stereo)
camera, I did.  The technical analysis of these photographs
produced page after page of data with the end result detailing an
object 14 foot in diameter at the bottom ring and 475 feet distant.

     The accusation of hoax came fast from those unable to say
"maybe", and I was asked to take a lie detector test.  Again the
ridicule was hurled toward me and yet another lie detector test.

     As the controversy swirled, I began to hear preposterous tales
being spread by the debunkers about devil parties and "ultimate
pranks," etc.  Those of you who know me will certainly laugh at
such claims, but the object was to discredit me in the eyes of those
who don't know me.  There was a very serious attempt  to destroy
my reputation by twisting spooky party games into ritual seances.
Having failed to discredit the photographic evidence, the out of
town critics have mounted a slander campaign hoping to brand me.
Thank you Gulf Breeze for ignoring these outrageous rumors.

     Some of you may remember the front page headline "Expert
says Photos a Hoax."  The next day the "expert" publicly retracted
his claim and apologized.  A counterintelligence agency in
Maryland was given an audio tape of me being interviewed.  The
resulting examination of the tape on a PSE (Psychological Stress
Evaluator) vindicated my word once more when the examiner
said the result "does not show any reaction to cause this examiner
to doubt his (Ed's) answers."

     Soon I began to understand that no matter how many tests I
was subjected to and how many times the photographs were
analyzed, I was still open game for the out of town media and
clearly a target to be ridiculed by the out of town debunkers.
Many distant newspapers and TV crews played "hide and seek"
with reporting the accurate details, and several times I have
been blackmailed in their quest for a scoop to expose my name.

     The official MUFON investigation was even infiltrated early
by a debunker who took a liquid sample suspected to have fallen
from the UFO for analysis only to issue a false report.  Later the
sample was analyzed by an independant lab with startling results.
The debunker was exposed and fired in discredit.  Another
debunker from Central Florida has recently been exposed and is
now being ignored by serious researchers.

     From Nov. 11 to May 1, 1988 (my last sighting), I have been
stedfast to the truth as the storm of controversy, both positive
and negative, continued to build in the media.  The most
troublesome question of the controversy is "Why have I had so
many sightings?"  I can not explain the "why" questions, the most
disturbing one being, "Why Me?"

     In an effort to understand, I have undergone a battery of
pshchological profile tests followed by six hours of regressive
hypnosis.  The details of the hypnosis indicate previous encounters
as far back as 11 years of age.  I was the first to shake my head
in confusion but have come to the adjustment that life goes on--
even life we may not understand.

     Thanks to all those who have stood up and reported what they
saw.  Thank you, Gulf Breeze for being a good neighbor.

------------------------------------------------------------------

GULF BREEZE UFO FROM THE INVESTIGATIVE PERSPECTIVE

                 BY DONALD M. WARE

     During the past year, many residents in and around Gulf Breeze,
FL have been part of a unique experience in this country.  Over
a hundred people reported objects that we could not identify as
planes, planets, flares, etc..  Some reported seeing alien beings,
and six reported blue beams coming from the UFO.  One respected
Gulf Breeze family had 22 encounters with UFOs, including 18
separate photographic sessions.  These sessions produced 41
photographs of at least five different types of flying objects.  Five
different cameras were used providing sufficient data to determine
the size of some objects.  For example, one object photographed
on 1 May 1988 was 14.8 (misprint?) feet high and had a light on
the bottom that was 14.8 feet in diameter.  I have seen over
60 photos of UFOs from this area.

     Investigations by Newspapers, TV and the Mutual UFO Network
were generally accomplished without ridicule.  This encouraged
12 people to tell of their UFO experiences that involved "missing
time" or extremely strange dreams.  Some of these people are
having trouble coping with their experiences. MUFON established
a support group including abductees, investigators, and a clinical
psychologist to help reduce fear of the unknown.  I think the
support efforts, including time-regression hypnosis, have helped
several who seem to have been inside a UFO understand their
strange experiences.

     I suspect that the increasing national media coverage of the
UFO phenomenon, spurred by the Gulf Breeze photos and sightings
will cause many more abductees to gain the courage to talk about
their experiences.  Perhaps some will seek help in understanding
what happened to them.  I hope investigators and psychologists
across the country will work together to provide this help.

     Some people have been unable to fully accept the reality of
alien visitors, including some "armchair investigators."  Perhaps
the Gulf Breeze photos will help people across the country accept
the reality described in the MJ-12 documents and other government
disclosures.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

TO CELEBRATE OR NOT TO CELEBRATE

           BY DUANE COOK

     How do you celebrate the anniversary of an event you are
not yet sure was good?

     Well, maybe celebrate is not the appropriate term.

     Perhaps reminisce is a better word to apply to our thoughts
and activities on this 1st anniversary of the now famous UFO
sightings by "Ed" and others in and around Gulf Breeze.

     Initially we had no idea that printing Ed's photos would cause
such a worldwide interest in our fair community.

     First, there were the wire services that broke the news
worldwide with a brief account of the first sightings.

     Then came the National Enquirer with their offer to pay for
the right to print the photos if NASA Scientists found them
genuine.

     MUFON (Mutual UFO Network) got involved in the investigation
early and became the authority to which the explosion of local
sightings were referred.

     Dr. Bruce Maccabee, an optical physicist under contract with
the Navy, did the most extensive research on the Gulf Breeze
sightings and photographs and has pronounced them real for
lack of any evidence to the contrary.

     And now we find ourselves contemplating why Gulf Breeze?

     Is it because they (the UFOs) knew Ed would share his photos
with the whole town via the Sentinel and subsequently the local TV
stations?

     Or is it because Ed lives here and they (the UFOs) just followed
him here to continue their interaction with him as they have done
at eight year intervals since he was a child?

     And what about the many other sightings we've had?  Is it just
coincidence that Charlie and Doris saw the same craft on the same
night that Ed photographed it, thus assuring the Sentinel's
unflinching support while maintaining its unquestioned credibility?

     Then there are the ministers, the teachers, the law enforcement
officers, the district medical examiner and his wife, and even a city
council member.

     Were these people just randomly in the right place at the
right time, or is there an intelligent plan guiding the selection of
who sees it and who doesn't?

     Whether we call it a celebration, a reminiscence, or a review,
we all found it amazing that it's already been a whole year since it
all started.

     And we wanted to share with you our thoughts and reflections
on this most interesting year.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Reports by several others also appeared in this issue of
The Sentinel but are not presented here.

--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Message reply on Ed's "ghost" photos
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:33:57 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 83
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3145 alt.conspiracy:8640 sci.skeptic:17720




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


Message #8792 - Gourmet Gab
   Date : 18-May-90 12:43
   From : John Hicks
     To : Don Allen
Subject : Gallifrey

 > Did Ed tell you how he had managed to capture those "ghosts"
 > on film (recent Sentinel article showed a young girl at Ed's
 > house and the appearence of a ghost either behind or beside
 > her)?

  Yes, he described what he was doing and showed me some pictures. The ghost
pictures are pretty much a disinformation campaign by Willy Smith. BTW, when
the first burned area was found in the field, Willy Smith insisted he smelled
gasoline while no one else did. Specific testing for petroleum products found
none. Also, Willy Smith hired a photographer in New York to fake a picture of
an Ed-style ufo in front of the Chrysler Building, ostensibly to show how it
could be done. Smith then passed off that picture as one of Ed's pictures
until the photographer contacted MUFON and let the cat out of the bag. So, I
think anything Willy Smith says is highly suspect.
  Anyway, back to the ghost pictures.
  According to Ed, the game is that "The ghost is *in* one of you, and only
the camera can tell which."
  Ed takes a couple of normal pictures of the kids, no ghost. Then he picks
one, focuses the camera for long distance (called infinity, but he didn't know
that) and takes a picture of the kid about four feet away. The out-of-focus
picture shows the far wall sharp while the kid's a little blurry. The flash
causes the eyes to go totally white in the same way that many pictures of
people result in red eyes, or of animals result in bright green eyes etc. The
"ghost" of course has totally white eyes.
  In the picture Willy Smith is trying to call a ghost picture, it was
supposed to be a regular picture of the kid, no ghost. However, it was shot in
front of a sliding glass door which Frances said she had never cleaned in the
five or so years they had lived in the house.
  Maccabee said that he has confirmed in tests that fingerprints and smears
can really reflect blobs of light while the angle to the glass is such that
clean glass doesn't reflect light back to the camera. I've also seen this many
times myself.
  Anyway, Smith claims that the photo which shows the blobs of light is
supposed to be a ghost picture, but when you see Ed's examples of "ghost"
pictures and the pictures that show the kid that the "ghost" is gone, you can
see that Smith is taking little bits of information completely out of context
in a debunking effort.
  Absolutely no signs of double exposure or manipulations other than
intentionally wrong focusing can be seen in any of the pictures.

 > Total Non-sequitor: Since you're a photographer...what camera
 > setup
 > would you recommend and film,speed,etc to capture a UFO in
 > flight?

  I extrapolated a ballpark exposure based on the known exposure settings of
Ed's pictures taken with the Polaroid 108 film. It comes out to a ballpark
exposure setting of 1/60 at f2.8 with ISO 3200 film. This is for the craft
itself, providing it's apparent self-illumination would be about the same. My
gut guess was 1/60 at f2 with ISO 1600 film, which amounts to the same.
  Of course, if what you see is a bright light, you'd use less exposure, while
if you see a dark disc you'd use more exposure. If you see lights on a dark
disc you'd need to decide whether to go for the structure of the disc and let
the lights overexpose or to go for the lights and let the disc go to black.
  In any case, you need to use manual settings rather than autoexposure
because the metering system will see all that black sky and give an exposure
of several seconds. This is what happened recently when Ed and several others
tried to photograph a dark disc that had a dull red light on the bottom.
Everyone's camera gave an exposure of three to five seconds and all anyone got
was blurry blobs.

                                           jbh


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Message about Hyser Report
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:35:20 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 86
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3146 alt.conspiracy:8641 sci.skeptic:17721




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


Message #5474 - INFO.PARANET
   Date : 10-Nov-91  2:12
   From : John Hicks
     To : all
Subject : Hyser report

  Here's the scoop on the Hyser report (so far).
  Rex Salisberry says he has a copy of William Hyser's report on some of Ed
Walter's photos but can't release it to us yet because of a committment he
made to Hyser to not release the report without his (Hyser) permission.
  Jerry Black sent a copy to Phil Klass, and Phil quoted a little of it in his
newsletter. Rex said Hyser went through the roof.
  Anyway, the gist of the report is that Hyser found quite a few things in the
photos that were *consistent with* multiple exposures, but nothing that
constituted *proof* of multiple exposures.
  I think we've already discussed most of those items and picked the photos
apart, but of course we don't have any clout so we don't really count. ;-)
  Also, in the October 1991 _Photomethods_, (a journal for commercial/
industrial photographers) Hyser went through an example of how to do a
multiple exposure and have the object appear to be behind another darker
object. The example was a ufo behind a church steeple at night (surprise!)
  Anyway, he presents the idea of the film's threshold sensitivity as being
the key to having a foreground object appear black against a slightly light
object.
  Look at Ed Walter's photo #1, in which we see a ufo behind a tree branch.
Keep that in mind.
  Now I'll walk through the threshold sensitivity thing, in plain English. In
the graphic arts and photolab industries, the process is called flashing, so
you guys familiar with that stuff will now already know what I'm talking
about.
  Photographic film (paper etc.) requires a minimum amount of light for an
image to "stick." For example, let's say the threshold is five photon (units
of light). If the film receives only four photons, they'll most likely
dissipate before you develop the film. If the film receives more than five
photons, they "stick" and you have a latent image (waiting to be developed).
  So, an area of film that receives only four photons will be black (clear)
and an area that receives six photons will have density.
  Listen closely now.....
  A ufo model is first photographed against a black background, and is exposed
just below the threshold, say, just under five photons. If you were to develop
the film, you'd see no image.
  *But* you make a second exposure on the same sheet of film. The second
exposure consists of a black tree and an illuminated skyline. You make this
exposure slightly underexposed.
  Where the tree overlaps the ufo, the film doesn't receive any additional
light, so you have a total exposure still of just under five photons; no
image. The combination of the skyline *and* the ufo below-the-threshold image
make up more than five photons, so not only do you have the skyline image,
you've kicked the ufo image over the five-photon threshold too; you have an
image of a ufo against a skyline, with a (black) tree that appears to be in
front of the ufo.
  *But* such a multiple exposure isn't without artifacts. The very dark image
of the ufo will tend to take on the colors of the background. Sort of a
chameleon effect.
  Also, to heighten the contrast between the ufo image and the skyline, you
can develop the film for a longer time (Polaroid 108 too).
  Now, take another good close look at the Ed Walters photos......
  My opinion? (since you didn't ask)
  This process is certainly workable, and wouldn't be anywhere near as
cumbersome as masking techniques in the darkroom, then printing onto Polaroid
etc. But it'd be hard to control. But certainly workable.
  I think we have another valid hoax theory. Not proof, but a theory that can
explain photo #1.
  William G. Hyser is a consultant in optical instrumentation, photogrammetry,
forensic engineering, electrical contact physics and illumination engineering.
Perhaps best of all, he's not a ufologist.

                                           jbh

---
 * Origin: Moderation? What's that? -*- Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:363/29)


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Jim Speiser message about Ed and the model
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:36:34 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 113
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3147 alt.conspiracy:8642 sci.skeptic:17722




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


Message #5717 - UFO
   Date: 11-11-91 13:09
   From: Jim Speiser
     To: All
Subject: Ed and the model
Replies: -> #5721

        One of the reasons I reject Ed Walters' claims regarding his
photographs of the Gulf Breeze object is the sheer NUMBER of
little controversies surrounding the photos and events there. One of
those controversies, of course, is the model that was found in Ed's
former residence. Ed has been very good at putting out fires, by
misdirecting people's attention to little details that would seem to
exonerate him. But now there is another controversy arising out of the
model, and that is the apparent attempt by someone to "go back in time"
and change the relevant evidence, or get rid of it altogether.

The evidence hinges on the house plans made by Ed Walters which appear
on the inside of the UFO model. Ed claims the plans were drawn up in
September of 1989, two years after his first UFO photos were made
public. But, according to Phil Klass' "Skeptics UFO Newsletter", July
1991 issue....

<<

It can now be revealed that in early January, 1987, Walters and Russ
McElhinney decided to build a a house "on speculation" at 712 Jamestown
Drive which would have a Living Area of 1740 sq. ft. and whose garage
entrance would be PARALLEL to the long dimension of the house -- as in
the UFO-model house plan. On Jan. 16, 1987, Walters and McElhinney filed
a building permit request with the Gulf Breeze City Hall and 12 days
later, on Jan. 28, they filed a building permit reqeust with Santa Rosa
County ... However, the Slab Area shown does NOT match the 2393 sq. ft.
visible on the UFO-model drawing.

But if one calculates the Slab Area for the Thomas house plan, it does
not total 2393 either. When I pointed this out to Maccabee, he replied
that "the term `slab area' does not mean just the area where there is
concrete slab. How Ed arrived at the [2393] number is a straightforward
caluclation for him, even though it may seem strange to you (and me)."
(The "Spec House" was never built. A short time later, Mr./Mrs. Gerald
Folkers contracted with Ed to build a somewhat different design at 712
Jamestown Drive.)

Soon after the small UFO-model was discovered, Ed Walters visited the
owners of his former residence to inspect the model they had found. A
short time later, Ed and his wife Frances visited City Hall to examine
house plans. Later it was discovered that the lower right corner of the
"spec" house drawing - where the Living Area and Slab Area figures
normally are shown - had been torn off by some "person unknown."

WHO WOULD HAVE ANY REASON TO VISIT THE GULF BREEZE CITY HALL AND TEAR
OFF THE CORNER OF THE "SPEC HOUSE" PLAN THAT SHOWED ITS LIVING/SLAB AREA
FIGURES? Several potential suspects come to mind: The KGB, The Pope,
Dolly Parton, Barbara Bush, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, Saddam Hussein,
Donald Trump, and VP Dan Quayle. If you can think of any other possible
suspects, please submit name(s) to SUN.

>>

I plan to scan the 1/28/87 building permit application into the system
and will distribute it. Again, not the smoking gun, but just another of
those "little controversies" that mar this case.

Jim Speiser

Note: This message originally appeared on ParaNet a few months ago. I'm
reposting it here because the controversy over the plans has come up here
recently and I wanted to try and clarify a few things.
JS

--- QuickBBS 2.75
 * Origin: REMOTRON ASSOCIATES INC    Scottsdale, AZ    Freq FILES (1:114/37)



Message #5721 - UFO
   Date: 11-12-91 10:14
   From: John Hicks
     To: Jim Speiser
Subject: Ed and the model
Replies: #5717 <-

 > WHO WOULD HAVE ANY REASON TO VISIT THE GULF BREEZE CITY HALL AND TEAR
 > OFF THE CORNER OF THE "SPEC HOUSE" PLAN THAT SHOWED ITS LIVING/SLAB AREA
 > FIGURES?

  Hee hee!
  Also, I've been told that round about the same time, Gulf Breeze Mayor Ed
Grey visited the planning & zoning dept. (or whatever they call it) for the
very first time, all by himself. Unknown whether that was before or after the
Walters' visit.

                                           jbh

---
 * Origin: Moderation? What's that? -*- Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:363/29)



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Salisberry CI$ conference transcript
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:37:42 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 554
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3148 alt.conspiracy:8643 sci.skeptic:17723





The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

[Transcript of an Online Conference with Carol and Rex Salisberry. Two MUFON
UFO investigators in the Gulf Breezes, Florida case.  Terry Ecker acts as a
local host. Sunday, Septmeber 2, 1990]

User  User ID        Nod  Area      Name
----  -------------  ---  --------  -------------------
   1  76146,2631     HLV  Rm  5     Vince
   2  76703,266      DUK  Rm  5     G-WIZ
   3  76012,3361     BMD  Rm  5     Ted
   4  71450,3504     ANN  Rm  5     Bert
   5  71207,1165     PSF  Rm  5     Rex & Carol
   6  76004,340      QGD  Rm  5     Jack
   7  70431,3543     PRI  Rm  5     Paula
   8  72540,1652     DWC  Rm  5     Tom
  15  74270,3360     SIF  Rm  5     DON

(5-3,Ted) Tonights special guests are Carol and Rex Salisberry MUFON
investigators on the Gulf Breezes UFO case. Carol and Rex wil discuss and
answer questions about the numerous sighting in the area.  Because the case
is still on going and also because of all the senstionalist press the Ed
Walters case is NOT one they wish to debate.  Many thanks to Terry Ecker
foracting as the local host in Florida. With that behind us, Carol? Rex? Do
you have any opening remarks? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) We just want o thank you for having us as guests. ga

(5-1,Vince) ?

(Bert) ?

(5-6,Jack) ?

(5-3,Ted) I will open the floor to ? and !. Please type a "?" or a "!" if you
have a question or comment and I will take your name down and flag you when
it is your turn. GA Vince

(5-1,Vince) Rex would like to know your background and how you became
interested in ufo's?

(5-5,Rex & Carol)  Retired Air Force 31 years rasnk colonel, pilot for 20
plus, R&D last 15 years. POresently teach college parttime. Have always
been interested in UFOs, just been more active past couple of years Carol and
a friend saw three daylight disks in spring of 88, Pardon Terry's typing. ga

(5-3,Ted) Bert is next GA

(Bert) ok...
Rex and Carol, one of the more significant signtings by multiple
witnesses seems to have been the one on Sept. 12, 1989 involving
about 35 witnesses including 12 MUFON investigators. The recent
in the Sentinel (9/21/89) suggested that this was a
"type II" object (i.e. like photos 20 and 22 in the "book").
I understand that Bruce Maccabee analyzed photographs of this event
Have the results of this analysis been completed and was the object
indeed a "type II'? Also have your own investigations involved this
particular event or related events? Thanks. GA

(5-5,Rex & Carol) First, we doubt that there were 35 witnesses.
Anyway, fewer than half saw it, and not all of
the MUFON investigators saw it. It was just aq red dot kin the sky.
One photo was taken, not nalyzed to our knowledge.
We don't consider that a significant sighting by any means. ga

(5-3,Ted) Jack is next. GA

(5-6,Jack) Rex and Carol , I am most interested in any physical evidence
that may be associated
with the GB sightings. Has any been found or is the bulk of the evidence
primarily photos and sightings ? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Many persons have mysterious physical marks
on their bodies, such as puncture wounds, new scars with no previous wound,
etc. Not many photos, and few of them show much. We have a few small pieces
of metal which were gathered from inside the car after the driver was struck
by something on the left shoulder; metal not yet analyzed. ga

(5-10,Steve) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Steve

(5-10,Steve) Rex, As a retired military officer. What is your opinion as to
the extent of official government cover up and/or involvment at GB and at
other UFO sites, ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) We think it's obvious the government has always covered up
to someextent. We have no evidence to indicate government involvement in
the cases here. ga

(Bert)?

(5-3,Ted) While we are waiting for the next round of ?s and !s I have a ?
Carol or Rex, just how many people have sighted the GB UFO and how many have
shown body markings? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Gulf Breeze UFO is misleading. Many different types have been
seen, all shapes, all sizes some with markings, some with windows.
Triangular shapes transparent UFOs, arrow head shapes, cigar shaped and disks.
The GB (Walters) UFO not seen by many. ga

(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Bert

(Bert) Could you describe one or two of what you feel are your most significant
cases. Particularly involving on of the skin wounds if possible. ga

(5-3,Ted) Good ? Bert GA C&R

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Two witnesses, mother and daughter, are with us tonight.
One has wounds on her arm in the shape of the object she saw, delta shaped.
They wer standing in their driveway; the object covered their yard and the
yard next door - about 150 feet. Had a bright white light on front, a red
light on each corner. It was followed by a cigar shaped object with a white
light on the left and a red light on the right; both were followed by a very
small red light that appeared to be trying to catch up. There was no sound.
We just held hands as they went over us at treetop level. We jumped in our
car and tried to follow it, lost sight, but seen again six miles to the east
in reverse order. ga

(5-3,Ted) Any missing time? ga
(Bert) ?follow

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Not that either is aware of. They were disoriented and
lethargic for a few days. Hypnosis has been attempted with no conclusive
results so far. Body markings are as yet unexplained. ga

(5-3,Ted) Bert has a follow up ? Then it's Matt's turn. GA Bert

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Hi Don.
(Bert) Have the two witnesses had any further sightings and/or is this a
one-time thing? ga

(5-15,DON) Hello all.

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Yes, many times beginning in 1958 and some since. On one
occasion we followed one to their house and all four of us saw it. ga
Same object shape etc.?ga

(5-6,Jack) ?

(5-1,Vince) ?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) They have seen several sizes and shapes. The one we
followed to their house was just a round white ball. ga

(5-3,Ted) Matt GA
(5-3,Ted) Matt are you still with us? ga

(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) Not on the list.

(5-5,Rex & Carol) !

(5-3,Ted) Ok Matt, I had you down for a ? my mistake. GA R&C

[NOTE: Ted was having problems with his CIM Software and CosmicThAng/Philly
was showing up as Matt on his computer. Hence, a LOT of confusion!]

(5-5,Rex & Carol) We have one long term case dating back 16 years to the
abduction of the mother in Germany. Through hypnosis she has total recall of
the event and has povided detailed descriptions of the craft and the
 entities. Th craft was a 40 foot disk with a crew of six. One had died nd a
second ship was bringing a replacement crew member. Entities looked like
greys in silver suits. They seemed capable of emotion such as anger,
compassion, etc. The family has had more than 20 sightings here during the
past year. ga

(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) ?

(5-3,Ted) Ok GA MATT

(Bert) Looks like only Ted can see Matt the phantom.ga

(5-3,Ted) Ok Jack is next GA Jack

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No Matt on the list here.

(5-6,Jack) Ok...


(Bert) Hmmmm, not here.ga
(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) Wait a second.  Ted says I'm Matt. I'm CosmisThAng
and I'm next. ga

(5-6,Jack) Regarding the pieces of metal when is the completed analysis
expected? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Analysis will *begin* when we find someone who can do it.
(cheap). ga

(Bert) ?

(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Vince

(5-1,Vince) Is there any local concern by citizens in the area is there any
local govt concern for citizens safety or is there not concern?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Well, we would say that spreading interest is more descriptive
than concern, although some do have concerns. Local government seems to have
no official position but are very cooperative with us on investigastions. We
know of no one who has been physically harmed by the phenomena, except for
the small wounds we have mentioned. ga

(5-7,Paula) ?

(5-3,Ted) Folks  Css is next.  For some reason (probably a CIM bug) he is
showing up as Matt on my list. Oh, well, GA Cosmic

(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) My questions also deal with bodily marks.
Is there an repeated pattern as to mark type or location?? To re-ask Ted's ?,
how many GB folks have marks? Also is there any history or occu4rance of
migraine headache disorders among the potential abductees?  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No identifiable pattern of marks locally, butt call-ins
from other areas have triangular marks mainly. Don't know how many Pensacola
area folks have marks. (We say Pensacola area since most events happen
outside of GB. There are many folks with migraine headaches, buzzing in the
ears. There is possible correlation with contactees. ga

(Bert) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Bert

(Bert) Actually I think Paula is next. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Paula

(5-7,Paula) If not, any theories?  Thanks  ga

(5-9,Russ) ?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No, but for what it's worth, one name we were given
was Zorcon. We have another contactee with us tonight whose experience goes
back at least 16 years and has written a book on the subject. ga

(5-3,Ted) I want to hear more about that after Bert"s ? ga Bert

(Bert) Rex, can you describe the metal object (poss. alien artifact) that
you mentioned earlier? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Very small, BB size, rough ut shiny, like little metl
pebbles. ga

(5-3,Ted) ANy follow Bert?

(Bert) Yes, does it break appart easily? And have you looked at it under a
microscope? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No, we can't break it. It hasn't yet been examined under
microscope.

(5-3,Ted) Since I have obviously been have a problem with CIM software
tonight I want to be sure that i have not missed anybody...

(5-3,Ted) Is there anyone out there that has been skipped over? ga

(5-9,Russ) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Russ

(5-1,Vince) ?

(5-9,Russ) I was wondering if you have noticed any change in the frequency
of sightings in Florida since 1958?  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Can't say since 58. Frequence has been relatively constant
the last three years. Before that we weren't here or involved. There are
reports of considerable activity on Eglin AFB in 1976-77-78-79. ga

(5-3,Ted) Vince is next. Ga

(5-9,Russ) ?
(Bert) ?

(5-1,Vince) Rex, when did you retire and did you have any military related
sightings?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) 1983. Sighting in early 60s hih over KC. Mo. We were at
33,000 and UFO up around 40,000. K.C. paper next day reported a landing in
Kansas. ga

(5-7,Paula) ?
(5-1,Vince) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Russ

(5-9,Russ) Have thre been any reports of the infamous "Men In Black"?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No. Carol had one Man in Black reporting and nother
witness claims to have seen alien at the MUFON Symposium in July. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Bert
(Bert) Your mentioning of a "buzzing in the ear" of a number of witnesses
is this the same type of buzzing involved in the Walters' case? Also
is the support group still meeting -- i.e. in the absence of Overlaid?
And if so, how many people attending. Thanks. ga

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) ?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No on the Walters hum, other have hih pitched ringing while
others have  moderate hum, sometimes with sightings. Support group dissolved
before Overlade died. ga

(5-3,Ted) Paula is next GA

(5-7,Paula) Excuse my ignorance (I'm new to this topic), but what does MUFON
stand for?  Also tell us about the book you mentioned earlier.  Thanks  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) MUFON = Mutual UFO Network. The book is *Star Bright, Star
White* by Norman Hill of Pensacola. I don't know whether it's permitted to
talk about the book, price of how to get it. Will let Ted say. ga

(5-3,Ted) Plug away! ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) P.O. Box 16040, Warrington FL 32507. $10 plus $2
shipping & handling this is a self published hardcover book by a man who has
had many sightings east of here, near Tallahassee, and numerous contacts with
several different entity groups. Normn has spent many nights camping at the
site where he has seen UFOS tkoff and land - the same site where. The site is
 on St. Joe Paper Co. land. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Vince (then Cosmic)

(5-1,Vince) ok...
(5-1,Vince) Are we any closer to solving the mystery and does there appear to
be any govt interest in the GB area sightings.ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) We see no signs of government interest here, nor that we are
close to solving the mystery. Sorry. ga

(Bert) ?

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) Got a follow up, Vince?  ga

(5-1,Vince) no

(5-3,Ted) GA Cos

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) R&C:  You said earlier that the hum sound
correlated with sightings.  Did you mean to indicate that all sounds
correlated (thusly)?..or just the hum sound.  Any correlation with the high
pitched sound?  I've heard that for years and years since childhood.  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) The hum, etc. and sightings are seldom simultaneous,
apparently.Correlation is only possible, not established. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Bert
(Bert) Regarding the metal pieces recovered
did I understand correctly that there are several pieces that all
appeared during the same event and that they are all BB sized hard
objects? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Yes, three of them. ga

(Bert) ?follow
(5-3,Ted) GA Bert

(5-1,Vince) ?
(Bert) Where were they found? i.e. on the floor of the car or
"stuck" to something in the car? thanks. ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) On the floor. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Vince

(5-1,Vince) Have you had any other military flyers relate ufo incidents to
you and was yours reported?ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Other flyiers yes, but not for the record. Ours not
reported. ga

(Bert) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Bert
(Bert) Anything new on the AWOL group? And what do you think of this strange
scenario? ga

(5-6,Bruce G) ?
(5-1,Vince) ?
(5-5,Rex & Carol) We talked to four of them three or four weeks ago. They
said they know nothing of "Rapture" or finding the anti-Christ. They repeated
they felt they had to leave Germany but not U.S. Army. Claimed they liked
their work. They had been reading the Bible, mostly. Revelations. Possible
they may have experienced paranormal things in Germany. These paranormal
events continued after they left. They consider themselves as being a simple
AWOL case. They had hoped to meet Bill Cooper since one of his papers bears
similarity to their reading of the Bible. They intend to release details of
their experience to the media soon. ga

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Vince

(5-1,Vince) Pretty serious offense (AWOL) did the army just let them go and
what were their motives?ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) AWOL is not too serious. Most go back. Reportedly Army has
600 AWOLs a month. Army granted general discharges to these six. Their
motives were to leave Germany, which they have not yet explained. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Cosmic!
(5-1,Vince) ?

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) Dealing strictly with pure, unsubstantiated
instinct. Dis you feel that the GB6 were speaking with total candor. Did they
 seem afraid of saying the wrong thing?  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Yes, we thought they were speaking with candor, and they
were not  afraid. We had been aware of their interest in the writings of
Bill Cooper for several months before their arrival in GB....

(5-5,Rex & Carol) We are also aware of their interest in psychic studies. ga

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) follow up?

(5-3,Ted) Follow Cos?

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) So the GB & UFO connections are pure coincidence???
Bill Cooper and GB, BOTH??  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) It appears to be coincidence at this time. They came to GB
to visit a friend. They think their AWOL case has been blown out of
proportion  as well as their "involvement" with UFOs. ga
(Bert) ? Ted got dumped. Rex with all the sightings by multiple witnesses
I think there are 290 plus now, if I remember correctly,. has there been any
thought of having an organized ffort to request (or perhaps DEMAND) an
official investigation i.e. by government officials. I would think there
would be enough people to sign something that would give it a little weight.
But of course we know what the gov. position would probably be. ga

(5-1,Vince) ?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Most witnesses are reluctant to have their names divulged,
such as the  signing a petition. Any demand would have to be made at
presidential level since decision to withhold UFO information is also made
at that level. We locally lack clout to demand anything. We consider
ourselves fortunate that so many witnesses/contactees have the guts to share
their experiences with us. We would hate to dry up that source. ga

(5-8,Ted ) Sorry folks I got dumped. Who is next?  ga

(Bert) I think Vince is up.

(5-1,Vince) I agree AWOL as such is not that serious but most are just guys
that oversleep. It doesn't appear that they had any intention of returning
and what or where is it stated that the release of UFO information is made at
 presedential level?ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) At the time of their arrest the six were debating their
futures turn themselves in to the Army, hide out in the hills or what. They
repeated several times that their intuition was to leave Germany and not the
Army. If you believe the MJ-12 documents and the President Carter statements
regarding UFOs, one could form the conclusion that such decisions are indeed
made at presidential level. The one case with which I am familiar involving a
foreign country, the disclosure decisions were made by the president. ga

(5-1,Vince) follow

(5-8,Ted ) GA Vince

(5-6,Bruce G) ?

(5-1,Vince) If you believe in the MJ-12 documents there has to be a large
scale coverup and a large infrastructure in not only the military but other
agencies to manage the wealth of information, sightings etc that continue to
be reported. This appears to be too well hidden.ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) It is hard to know how large the infrastructure might be,
however in personal contact with former Bluebook workers and others, they
relate that considerable UFO related information was systematically withheld
from the public. ga

(5-8,Ted ) GA Bruce

(5-6,Bruce G) This may sound silly, but is there a viable alternative to the
gov't as far as the public is concerned, to report incidental contacts or
sightings...

(5-6,Bruce G) like a 1-900-SAW-AUFO? ga

(5-8,Ted ) $25 for the first 30 seconds! <g>

(5-5,Rex & Carol) There is MUFON, n international reporting and investigative
organization independent of the government. ga

(5-8,Ted ) Anyone else with a ? or ! ga

(Bert)
?
(5-8,Ted ) GA Bert

(Bert) Rex and Carol, is there anything going on in the area there that we
may not have touched on that should be considered of major significance? i.e.
anything new on the "circles" or with animals etc. thx. ga

(5-1,Vince) !

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Nothin new on the circles. Many people are heaing strange
knockings on their doors, windows and aroun the house lately. Several
sightings have been seen over electrical power substations, which mkes one
think maybe they are stealing electricity. About half of our sightings
have aircraft flying in the immediate vicinity. We are investigating a new
case of an event of Christmas 1989 where a lady and her car were abducted for
about 30 minutes. She recalls being 30 or so feet in the air with the car,
descending toward the road. She remembers seeing two types of entities; two
entities were about six feet tall with a lot of hair on their faces which
appeared like animal hair. These two were dressed in white gowns like
doctors. Four other entities were about three nd  half feet tall and about as
 wide. She couldn't see their features. Fat greys? ga

(5-8,Ted ) GA Vince

(5-1,Vince) Oh Rex btw before I forget, FLY NAVY!ga

(5-8,Ted ) Any other ?s GA

(5-8,Ted ) I want to thank Rex and Carol Salisberry for sharing their evening
 with us.  Also special thanks to Anne Ecker for putting up with Terry on
this CO. Anne, Carol, Rex and Terry thanks for a wonderful and informative
evening. GA

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Thank you all. We've enjoyed it.

(5-5,Terry) Nite gang.

(5-6,Bruce G) Thx and Bye!

(5-7,Paula) Thanks all!  Bye!

(5-1,Vince) Nite all

(Bert) Thanks Rex and Carol.

(5-8,Ted ) Matt? Where are you Matt?

(5-1,Vince) Excellent co

(Bert) Night all.


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: Ed Walters on photo analysis
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:38:52 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 106
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3149 alt.conspiracy:8644 sci.skeptic:17724




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


The following is an open letter from Edward Walters, one
of the primary witnesses in the Gulf Breeze UFO flap.  He
addresses the isssue as to who has examined his original
photographs. He also indicates what he plans to eventually do
with the originals.


-------------------------------------------------------------

July 27, 1989


     A few Gulf Breeze critics, and one in particular, have distorted
the record as to the professional access and study of the
original photos of the Gulf Breeze UFO.  Here is a partial list of
the experts who have studied the ORIGINALS.

JIM TURNER, Photographer and film processing specialist
CURT SHIELDS, Photographer and special effects specialist
MARIE PRICE, Photographer, touch up expert
AL AUDLEMAN, Photographer, re-photographing expert
CHRISTOPHER STARK, Photographer, special effects specialist
MARK CURTIS & replica specialist, ABC News
DR. ROBERT NATHAN, Scientist, optics, etc.
DR. ARNOLD PALMER, Astronomer
DR. BRUCE MACCABEE,  Physicist, Optics, etc.
ROBERT OECHSLER, Analyst of polaroid film and chemistry
DR. MARK CARLATTO, Computer analyst
VINCENT DIPEITRO,  Photographic analyst
JOE GRECO, Photographic analysis scanning equipment
RICHARD VANDENBERG, Photographic expert
EDWARD WEIBE, Electronic engineer, computer analysis
JOHN GARDNER,  Acoustical physicist, video tape analysis
DR. EBERT, computer analysis
NBC photographers, and many, many photographers w/Cosgrove
   Productions

This list goes on and on with others and their associates that I
do not have the names of.  Certainly this shows that the originals
have not been withheld from skeptical study.  The unanimous
conclusion from the above: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO PROVE
A HOAX.

I have and will continue to withhold the originals from people
like P. Klass and Willy Smith.  Both proclaimed "hoax", before
seeing the photos and listening to a single one of the dozens of
other witnesses.  Given their history of debunking and Smith's
fake evidence hoax (discovered recently), it would be irrational
to trust the originals in their hands.  If the originals 'disappear'
they could then argue "hoax" with their altered copies and we
would not have the originals to prove that their copies had been
tampered with.

WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS FOR THE ORIGINALS

The protection of the originals is crucial in the support of the
witness testimony.  But....the testimony also supports the photos.
One without the other means nothing.  As Dr. Maccabee says, "A
UFO photo does not a UFO make" .....therefore, the attempts to
discredit my testimony by the debunkers has been severe.
Distortions and misquotes have been fabricated with abandon.
Locations and details have been intentionally changed leaving
the unsuspecting listener or reader to believe that I am a
hoaxer, prankster, ritual seance master, con man, and all the
other witnesses are deluded.

The documentation of the precise witness testimony is as
necessary as the protection of the originals.  They go hand
in hand.  During the past year it became obvious that a book
was the only way to completely document my testimony.
The media stories were not detailed and misquotes only
allowed the critic to yell "hoax".

When the testimony from the book is available to the public
and all interested scientists, I will contract with a computer lab
and have ALL the photos put on computer imaging tapes.  The
computer lab will not be asked to issue an analysis -- only
supply clear, exact copies of the originals in the computer
format.  Requests from serious researchers to study the tapes
will be encouraged.  The originals will be safe, the documented
testimony will be available and the tapes will further the
technical study of the UFO.


(signature)

Edward Walters

P.O. Box 715
Gulf Breeze, FL
32562


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GB: MUFON message - Maccabee talks about GB witnesses
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 20:40:22 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 52
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3150 alt.conspiracy:8645 sci.skeptic:17725




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

Date: 11-02-91  21:22
From: John Powell
Subj: MUFON Meeting

I just attended a Maryland MUFON meeting, (I guess you could call it a
meeting but it seemed more like a mini-convention to me), and l heard some
interesting stuff:

[Disclaimer:  I have great sympathy for reporters.  It is _darn_ hard to
listen and think _and_ take legible notes! <grin>]

Maccabee:
-+-------
Said he knows, by name, 12 other people who have clearly seen the
UFO/Ed-craft.

Showed a bunch of Red-light UFO videotape.  Several different sequences where
something is seen falling/dropping/lowered from the object.  When analyzed,
he said the odd thing about the 'light' that is 'dropped' is that it shows no
detectable signs of acceleration - so whatever it is that's happenning isn't
simply a dropped light/flare/etc...  [Newton would be alarmed... <grin>]

He mentioned a significant GB sighting on 10/30 that was witnessed by many
people and lasted 9 minutes.  Because of the duration and the number of
witnesses he suggested that there could be other implications.

He stated again that he thinks GB, including Ed, is real and 'the most
important event in UFOlogy today...'  [That's not a direct quote.]

He also mentioned that there have been several times when witnesses have seen
kites and balloons with flares but these were infrequent and easily spotted.

He mentioned a sneaky radar confirmation where a MUFON investigator, I think
he said it was Morrison, witnessed a Red-light UFO, called an Air Traffic
Controller at one of the Naval Air Stations in Gulf Breeze and claimed to be
on a boat and 'saw something weird.'  The Controller said they had spotted it
too, had no idea what it was, but were already checking into it...  In a
next-day official inquiry the NAS said they tracked nothing...


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 23:52:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes:

>As a side note, I think that if vibrational planers stopped saying
>"vibrational" plane and just let it go as "different dimension", we'd
>find their arguments more convincing.

I wouldn't, it's just as bogus.  "Vibration"?  Of what?  One poster
said it was the vibration of atoms, which is the explanation
for solid, liquid, and gaseous phases of matter.  So is there such
a thing as a supersolid (subsolid?).  The phase after gas, is plasma,
a fluid that is so hot the electrons are disassociated from the nuclei.
Still, there is nothing mysterious about it.  Are high "vibrational"
creatures very low in density, and very high in temperature?  That would
make them even easier to detect.  Mass is mass (unless it's energy :).

On dimensions, well, maybe there are, but the correct terminology would
be "different coordinate in one or more dimensions".  If there are more
than the four basic dimensions, they exist everywhere for everything
and everybody, but certain things might exist at different points in
that dimension.

More details and definitions would be nice to make sense of the
terms that people have been throwing around.

>BTW - what's an OOBE? Sincere question - I may have been having them
>lately.

Out Of Body Experience.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!sjcupps
From: [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: AIDS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 91 03:10:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Casey Barton) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric L. Tissue)
writes:
> >Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus..
> >M>twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom
users
> >have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly.
> >Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting
> >yourself into.
>
>
>      Damn right. God only knows what those alien visitors might be carrying.
>
*   Uh-oh.  Has anyone told the red-headed Julie Brown?*

I may be lost in Obscurity, but don't worry, I have my towel.
--

 Sara J. Cupps           "Inside my heart is breaking,
  no signature, only      My makeup may be flaking
 a word for Freddie,      But my smile still stays on.
 who is ill.               The show must go on."
                               -Freddie Mercury | Queen
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <1991Nov17.030509.25313@anasaz>
Date: 17 Nov 91 03:05:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gisle Hannemyr) writes:
]>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
]>> I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in
]>> office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody
]>> provide any references?
]>
]>Sorry, no reference, just my recollection of the event.
]>
]>While in office, Jimmy Carter stated that he had seen an UFO (I believe
]>the event had happened before he become president).  It was nothing
]>spectacular, just a strange, strong light just above the horizon.
]>
A few months later it swooped in and got the Republican nomination.  Not long
after that, poof, no more Carter.  The nation was left muttering about 4 years
of missing time ...


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <1991Nov17.032230.25723@anasaz>
Date: 17 Nov 91 03:22:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Nov12.202122.14837@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
]>In article <1991Nov12.202122.14837@anasaz> billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
]>>If there's any subject that gets QUIETED down immediately, this is it!  I
]>>suprised anything got out on ABC - maybe because nobody was watching the
]>>end of their noon program too closely.
]>
]>It wasn't ABC's noon program, it was an ABC affiliate's noon program.  I
]>don't know how many other stations might have chosen to run that particular
]>report from the network, but from the lack of online discussion about it
]>I'd have to guess that either not very many did, or nobody with access to a
]>computer network was watching.
]>
]>Don Ecker on Paranet has repeatedly said that it's impossible to get anyone
]>to discuss the subject of human mutilations.  You seem to think the two
]>subjects are linked.  What is the connection?
]>
If I knew that I'd have my own book out and wouldn't be asking for help on the
net.  I don't know Don Ecker but agree that the subject of human mutilations
is shut down so tight, I even debated putting anything in here about it.  If

The two known human mutilation cases (Vietnam and White Plains, NY) that got
initial publicity immediately disappeared from the press with no follow up.

I'm hoping someone on the net will pick up some local reports about cattle
mutilations, a seemingly unconnected, unidentified "blob" of organic
material found nearby and human mutilations/disappearances. Or, cattle
mutilations and intense military interest - when there is a cattle mutilation,
does the military get in there fast and remove more chilling evidence.
>--
> *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
> Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
> 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
> Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!isis.cs.du.edu!dhaley
From: [e-mail] (Dean Haley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 91 13:19:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1991Nov17.030509.25313@anasaz>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Lines: 8
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.

>]>> I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in
>]>> office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody
>]>> provide any references?

No referewnces, but a question.
Is this the same president that swore that there were secret
UFO files that he would make public when he became president, but after he was
elected didn't release them? If not, what was his name?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!zweig
From: [e-mail] (Johnny Zweig)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 91 23:06:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Lines: 6
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3156 alt.paranormal:3680 alt.angst:2551

[e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
>..
>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>
Yeah. It won't do any good. The important damage has already been done.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!hp4nl!tuegate.tue.nl!gem!gtoal
From: [e-mail] (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Gulfbreeze files - Introduction
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 91 13:21:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MCGV Stack @ EUT, Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3157 alt.conspiracy:8656 sci.skeptic:17741

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
... Intro to posting...

Don - You've got your own damn newsgroup for this stuff now; do you
*still* need to crosspost to alt.conspiracy?  It would have been quite
suffient to have posted only the into article, with a pointer to
alt.alien.visitors for people who wanted to read more.

Regards
Graham
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john
From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz>
Date: 17 Nov 91 05:15:26 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA
Lines: 29

Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes:
]>Not true. The odds of being killed by an asteroid during your lifetime
]>is about one in 10,000 according to some astronomers who have been
]>studying asteroid strikes on earth. This assumes that when one does
]strike,
]>it kills a whole lot of people. I would point out that this risk is
]much
]>larger than your risk of being killed by either a plane crash or
]lighting,
]>and as an ex-Kansan, clearly larger than your risk of being killed by
]>a shark (non-lawyer) in Kansas.

]Wait a second!  Now perhaps my arithmetic is bad, but if the odds of my
]getting killed by an asteroid (spread over my whole lifetime) are
]1 in 10,000, then wouldn't we not expect that for similar lifetimes of
]every 10,000 people, that about one of them is getting killed by an asteroid?
]So with a planet of a population of approx. 5,000,000,000 (5 billion), we
]would expect there would be up to 500,000 asteroid-related deaths!

Yes, if the deaths were independent events. However, since an asteroid
strike would likely kill many millions to billions, the deaths are not
independent.  ie... your math is bad.
--
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john [e-mail] anasaz![e-mail]
 - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - -
 - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver
From: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 91 17:30:54 GMT
References: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Lose)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University
Lines: 20

>]Wait a second!  Now perhaps my arithmetic is bad, but if the odds of my
>]getting killed by an asteroid (spread over my whole lifetime) are
>]1 in 10,000, then wouldn't we not expect that for similar lifetimes of
>]every 10,000 people, that about one of them is getting killed by an asteroid?
>]So with a planet of a population of approx. 5,000,000,000 (5 billion), we
>]would expect there would be up to 500,000 asteroid-related deaths!
>
>Yes, if the deaths were independent events. However, since an asteroid
>strike would likely kill many millions to billions, the deaths are not
>independent.  ie... your math is bad.
>


Uh oh!  Seems my math is bad!  Honestly, I don't understand how you can
come up with an answer of 1 in 10000 as odds of getting killed by an
asteroid during my lifetime.  To me, those look really really high.  I'd
more likely believe an answer like one in a million, or billion, or
what have you.  The only way I can accept that answer of 1 in 10000 is if
you assume an asteroid DOES hit - was this the original assumption this
answer is based on?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 91 18:01:52 GMT
References: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes:
>Uh oh!  Seems my math is bad!  Honestly, I don't understand how you can
>come up with an answer of 1 in 10000 as odds of getting killed by an
>asteroid during my lifetime.  To me, those look really really high.  I'd
>more likely believe an answer like one in a million, or billion, or
>what have you.  The only way I can accept that answer of 1 in 10000 is if
>you assume an asteroid DOES hit - was this the original assumption this
>answer is based on?

    Nope. Lemme try putting it this way. If an asteroid were to hit
Earth, the chances are that most people end up dead because of it. Thus,
all you have to do is figure out what the chances are of an asteroid
HITTING within your lifetime... and that comes out to about one chance
in ten thousand -- i.e., an asteroid is likely to hit Earth once every
seven hundred thousand years or so, so its chances of hitting during
any given 70-year span are 1 in 10,000.

    Remember, large lifeforms (like us) will probably be severely
damaged by both direct and indirect (nuclear-winter type) effects of
the blast. So if you figure that you have a 50/50 chance of dying if
an asteroid hits, then maybe it's one in 20,000 -- but that's the same
order of magnitude, anyway...

                Sea Wasp
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!raven.alaska.edu!decwrl!zazen!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!tulane!samsung!mips!apple!claris!szebra!spectrx!root
From: root@spectrx
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: AIDS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 91 23:42:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone]
Lines: 13

[e-mail] (Eric L. Tissue) writes:

> Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus..  Maybe you shou
> twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom users
> have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly.
> Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting
> yourself into.

so what is this supposed to mean, don't have sex with aliens?

--
spectrx.saigon.com!root (Postmaster Account)
SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho
From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 02:50:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17756 talk.religion.newage:7712 alt.atheism:18045 alt.alien.visitors:3162

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>> Religion deals with the truths of worlds OTHER than the physical
>>one.
>
>worlds OTHER than the physical one? you mean fantasy worlds. Yes religeon
>is about escaping from reality to find the inner truths of ones fantasies.
>
How can you say definitively that there are no real universes outside this
physical one?  There's no way to confirm (or deny) the existence of such worlds
because, by definition, they would be outside this universe, and therefore
unreachable and untestable.  (Except of course for the folks who claim to have
seen/travelled to these places, but that's a different topic.)

>No but you forget religeon keeps poking its nose into the real world. It
>talks of Creation,Noas Ark, Heaven Hell. These are all things purlorted to
>really exist.

Heaven and Hell definitely fall into the realm of "outside this universe."
"Creation" implies "before Creation", which also falls outside this universe.
Noah's Ark is the only thing you mentioned that might be testable.

>The bible is taken as TRUTH but the bible has myths whose
>setting is the real physical world. Obviously this will clash with science.

True.  I think the Bible contains much more metaphor than fact; especially the
Old Testament.
>
>ALEX BUNKER

--E.V.L. ([e-mail])        #
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely    # But what I really want is to direct.
devastatingly true, except the bits #
that are lies."  --Douglas Adams    #
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: A psychiatrist's view of abductions (technical)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 91 19:16:26 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 628
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3163 sci.skeptic:17759


The following is about PTSD and it's effects on UFO abductees.

------Begin included text-------------------------------------------



                             RIMA E. LAIBOW, M.D.
                          Child and Adult Psychiatry

                                             Cerridwen
                                     13 Summit Terrace
                                Dobbs' Ferry, NY 10522
                                         [phone]

     CLINICAL DISCREPANCIES BETWEEN EXPECTED AND OBSERVED DATA IN PATIENTS
             REPORTING UFO ABDUCTIONS: IMPLICATIONS FOR TREATMENT

  ABSTRACT:  IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT THIS PAPER MAKES NO ATTEMPT TO ASSIGN OR
WITHHOLD EXTERNAL VALIDITY RELATIVE TO UFO ABDUCTION SCENARIOS.

        Patients who believe themselves to be UFO abductees are a
heterogeneous group widely dispersed along demographic and cultural lines.
Careful examination of these patients and their abduction reports presents
four areas of significant discrepancy between expected and observed data.

        Implications for the treatment of patients presenting UFO abduction
scenarios are discussed.

        INTRODUCTION

        If a patient were to confide to a therapist that he had been abducted
by aliens who took him aboard a UFO and performed a series of medical
procedures and examinations on him it is not likely that the patient would
find either a receptive ear or a respectful and non-judgemental response from
the therapist.  The material presented would lie so far outside the confines
of our personal and cultural belief system that it would seem intolerably
anomalous to most of us.  We would probably dismiss or repudiate it using a
few comfortable and familiar assumptions which hold so much obvious wisdom
that they do not require specific examination.

        When events which are too anomalous to allow their incorporation
into our world schema are presented to us, we are likely to dismiss them
by using assumptions based in out currently operative world view.  This
effectively precludes the open evaluation of the anomaly.  Hence, the
"expressible" response of most clinical and lay individuals upon hearing a UFO
abduction account would be an immediate dismissal of even the possibility that
such an episode might occur.  Close upon the heels of that determination the
rapid and complete pathologization of the person offering such an account
would follow.  Dream states, suggestibility, poor reality testing, outright
dissembling or frank psychosis are customarily offered and accepted as evident
and reasonable organizing models by which the production of this material may
be understood. These are typical maneuvers by which the presentation of
information which challenges schematic assumptions is dismissed or screened
out before the assumptions can be adequately tested for predictive reliability
and accuracy.  Such testing is highly desirable, however, because it offers
us the opportunity to apply the scientific method to our current level of
theorital sophistication and thereby refine our understanding of reality
further still. Of course, this process is severely impeded when the new data
is excluded from consideration strictly because it is too anomalous for
assessment.

        Westrum has offered a model by which events become "hidden" and
therefore remain anomalous to the perception of society in a circular
process: the hidden event is disbelieved and its disbelief helps to keep it
hidden.  Citing the lengthy period during which battered children and their
battering parents remained hidden, Westrum states:

                "An event is hidden if its occurrence is so implausible
                that those who observe it hesitate to report it because
                they do not expect to be believed.  The implausibility
                may cause the observer to doubt his own perceptions,
                leading to the event's denial or mis identification.
                Should the observer nonetheless make a report, he/she
                can expect to be treated with incredulity or even
                ridicule.  Since the existence of a hidden event is
                contrary to what science, society, and perhaps even
                the observer believes, the event remains hidden because
                of strong social forces which interfere with
                reporting.  The actual degree of underreporting is
                sometimes difficult to believe, a skepticism which
                itself acts as a deterrent to taking seriously
                those reports which do surface." (1)

        But for the clinician who spends a moment before reaching these
"obvious" and "intuitive" conclusions, several fascinating and potentially
productive questions present themselves.  If we refrain for a short period
from dismissing this material out-of-hand, we find that there are at least
four areas of puzzling and important discrepancy between our intuitive sense
of order and the data presented by the patient.  These discrepancies force us
to re-examine our assumptions in light of a demonstrated failure of the theory
to account for the observed phenomena.  This process, while taxing and
challenging, is nonetheless, the way we systemize our understanding of human
health and pathology.  Noting the previously un-noted and using it to refine
our conceptual framework leads to better prediction and therefore to better
treatment.

        It is not the purpose of this paper to ascribe relative reality to the
experience of abduction reported by some patients. Rather, precisely because
it lies outside the realm of clinical expertise to assess with certainty
whether these events actually occurred or if they are mere fantasy, it is
mandatory for the clinician to examine the impact of these experiences,
whatever their source, upon the patient. This must be done in a clear sighted
and open-minded fashion so that the impact of the experiences may be dealt
with rather than made into hidden events.

        AREAS OF DISCREPANCY

        1. ABSENCE OF MAJOR PSYCHOPATHOLOGY:    It is intuitively
seductive (and perhaps comfortable) for us to assume that psychotic-level
functioning will necessarily be present in a person claiming to be a UFO
abductee.  If this level of distortion and delusion is present, a patient
would be expected to demonstrate some other evidence of reality distortion.
Pathology of this magnitude would not be predicted to be present in a well
integrated, mature and non-psychotic individual.  Instead, we would expect
clinical and psychometric tools to reveal serious problems in numerous areas
both inter- and interpersonally.  It would be highly surprising if otherwise
well-functioning persons were to demonstrate a single area of floridly
psychotic distortion.  Further, if this single idea fix were totally
circumscribed, non-invasive and discrete, that in itself would be highly
anomalous.  Well-developed, fixed delusional states with numerous
elaborated and sequential components are not seen in otherwise healthy
individuals.  Prominent evidence of deep dysfunction would be expected to
pervade many areas of the patient's life.  One would predict that if the
abduction experience were the product of delusional or other psychotic states,
it would be possible to detect such evidence through the clinical and
psychometric tools available to us.

        This points to the first important discrepancy:  individuals
claiming alien abduction frequently show no evidence of past or present
psychosis, delusional thinking, reality-testing deficits, hallucinations or
other significant psychopathology despite extensive clinical evaluation.
Instead, there is a conspicuous absence of psychopathology of the magnitude
necessary to account for the production of floridly delusional and presumably
psychotic material.(2)

        In order to test this startling and anomalous information, a group of
subjects who believe they have been abducted by aliens (9, 5 male, 4 female)
were asked to participate in a psychometric evaluation. An experienced
clinical psychologist carried out an investigation using projection tests
(Rorschach, TAT, Draw a Person and the MMPI) and the Wechler Adult
Intelligence Scale.  The examining clinician was told "the subjects were being
evaluated to determine similarities and differences in personality structure,
as well as psychological strengths and weaknesses".  All of the subjects
actively refrained from sharing UFO-related experiences with the examiner and
she was unaware of this theme in their lives.

        The investigator found that commonalties were not strongly present and
that:
                "while the subjects are quite heterogeneous in their
                personality styles, there is a modicum of homogeneity
                in several respects: (1) relatively high intelligence
                with concomitant richness of inner life; (2) relative
                weakness in the sense of identity, especially sexual
                identity; (3) concomitant vulnerability in the inter-
                personal realm; (4) a certain orientation towards
                alertness which is manifest alternately in a certain
                perceptual sophistication and awareness or in inter-
                personal hyper-vigilance and caution.... Perhaps the
                most obvious and prominent impression left by the
                nine subjects is the range of personality styles
                the present.... There is little to unite them as a
                group from the standpoint of the overt manifestations
                of their personalities.... They [are] very distinctive
                unusual and interesting subjects. [But] "Along with
                above average intelligence, richness in mental life,
                and indications of narcissistic identity disturbance,
                the nine subjects also share some degree of impair-
                ment in personal relationships.  For [some] subjects,
                problems in intimacy are manifest more in great
                sensitivity to injury and loss than in lack of
                intimacy and relatedness.  [Ad] "...The last salient
                dimension of impairment in the interpersonal realm
                relates to a certain mildly paranoid and disturbing
                streak in many of the subjects, which renders them
                very wary and cautious about involving themselves
                with others.  It is significant that all but one of
                the subjects had modest elevations on the MMPI paranoia
                scale relative to their other scores.  Such modest
                elevations mean that we are not dealing with blatant
                paranoid symptomology but rather over-sensitivity,
                defensiveness and fear of criticism and susceptibility
                to feeling pressured.  To summarize, while this is a
                heterogeneous group in terms of overt personality style,
                it can be said that most of its members share being
                rather unusual and very interesting.  They also share
                brighter than average intelligence and a certain rich-
                ness of inner life that can operate favorably in terms
                of creativity or disadvantageously to the extent that
                it can be overwhelming.  Shared underlying emotional
                factors include a degree of identity disturbance, some
                deficits in the interpersonal sphere, and generally
                mild paranoia phenomena (hypersensitivity, wariness,
                etc.)" (3)

        Her findings demonstrate a uniform lack of the significant
psychopathology which would be necessary to account for these experiences if
abduction experiences do represent the psychotic or delusional states
predicted by current theory.

        When the examiner was informed of the true reason for the selection of
the subjects for this evaluation (i.e., their shared belief that they had been
exposed to alien abductions), she wrote an addendum to the original report re-
examining the findings of the testing in the light of the new data.  In it she
states:
                "The first and most critical question is whether our
                subjects' reported experiences could be accounted
                for strictly on the basis of psychopathy, i.e., mental
                disorder.  The answer is a firm no.  In broad terms,
                if the reported abductions were confabulated fantasy
                productions, based on what we know about psychological
                disorders, they could only have come from pathological
                liars, paranoid schizophrenics, and severely disturbed
                and extraordinarily rare hysteroid characters subject
                to fugue states and/or multiple personality shifts...
                It is important to note that not one of the subjects,
                based on test data, falls into any of these categories.
                Therefore, while testing can do nothing to prove the
                veracity of the UFO abduction reports, one can conclude
                that the test findings are not inconsistent with the
                possibility that reported UFO abductions have, in fact,
                occurred.  In other words, there is no apparent
                psychological explanation for their reports." (4)

        2. CONCORDANCE OF REPORTED DATA:        The second point of
intriguing discrepancy follows from this surprising absence of evidence
of a common thread of severe and reality-distorting psychopathology to
account for the patient's bizarre assertions.  They claim that they have
been abducted, sometimes repeatedly over nearly the whole course of their
lives, by aliens who have communicated with them and carried out procedures
much like medical examinations.  Persons reporting these experiences are seen
to be psycho-dynamically varied.  They are also demographically varied.
Reports of this basic scenario, numbering in the hundreds, have now been
recorded.  Even though the reporters range from individuals as diverse as a
mestizo Brazilian farmer(5),an American corporate lawyer (6), and a Mid-
Western minister(7), there is a perplexing and intriguing concordance of
features in these reports.  Certain details of the scenarios repeat themselves
with disturbing regularity no matter what the educational, national, social,
experiential or other demographic characteristics of the reporter.  In the
production of dreams, reveries, poetry, fantasies and psychotic states, while
the general themes of concern may be identified easily between individuals,
the specific symbolization, concretion, abstraction and representation of
those themes is relatively indiosyncratic for each individual.  This of course
necessitates careful empathic and attentive listening on the clinician's part
to gather both the general flavor and specific meaning of the elements of the
fantasy state.  This careful listening often means that a personal symbolic
representational system can be unraveled and its contents can be rendered less
mysterious to the patient.  In the abduction scenarios however, both specific
details and themes repeat themselves with surprising regularity:  In general,
the appearance and modus operandi of the aliens, their effect and procedures,
their tools and interests, their crafts and physical features all tally from
report to report with a high rate of concordance. (8,9,10)  This intriguing
fact seems impervious to the socio-economic, educational, national, or
cultural background of the abductee.  Similarly, whether the individual has
had previous contact with the literature of abduction seems to make little
difference in this vein since the reports of individuals who can be shown to
have had no exposure to abduction literature also contains these common
features.  Skilled practitioners and investigators report in these cases that
they are convinced that each of these subjects was being wholly truthful in
his/her report.

        The concordance of both content and event in these reports makes
them unlike any other fantasy-generated material with which I am familiar.
Indeed, investigators like Hopkins and others claim they have intentionally
withheld dissemination of certain important, frequently reported aspects of
the abduction scenarios in order to provide a "check" on the material being
presented to them by individuals who may have had access to this literature
since abductees may have been influenced at either the conscious or the
unconscious level by it.  In these cases as well, the features which have
previously been published as well as those withheld are both produced by the
abductee (11).  In instances in which the patient has read some of the
abductee literature, this previously withheld material may be offered to the
investigator with a sense of personal invalidation, apology and embarrassment.
He often expresses concern that this information is less likely to be
believed than the other material with which he is already familiar. (12)

        Jung and others have written widely about the use of archetypes
and the collective awareness of themes and images which are asserted to
present themselves in a world-wide and multi-personal way.  The amount of
individual variation and creative latitude demonstrated within the closed
system of archetypes and collected creativity is vast.  Those who pose such
universals detect their presence in the complex and highly idiosyncratic
presentations and guises which they are given by the unconscious mind of the
patient and the artist.  This disguise is idiosyncratic, they hold, precisely
because a set of available images is being used to work and rework the
personal realities of the individual against the background of the collective.
But the abductee does not seem to be involved in the reworking of personal
mythologies against the canvas of the race's mythology.  The details and
contents of the scenarios seem, upon extensive investigation, to bear little
thematic relevance to the issues inherent in the life of the abductee.
Intensive follow up investigation frequently yields no thematic, archetypical,
primary process symbolic meaning to the shape or activities of the abductors
and the scenario of the abduction itself. Instead, therapeutic work in these
cases centers around the issues inherent in the powerlessness and
vulnerability of the individual even is this were not a prominent theme in his
life before the putative abduction.  In other words, the customary richness of
association and creativity found in the examination of dreams and other
fantasy material is lacking with regard to the scenario and presentation of
the aliens who abduct and manipulate the patient in the abduction story.

        If the abduction material is indeed archetypal or fantasy generated in
nature, this is a new class of archetypes.  These archetypes demand rather
exact representation and mythic presentation since the activities and behavior
of the aliens is rather invariant within a narrow latitude regardless of the
other dream and fantasy themes of the patient.

        3. ABDUCTION SCENARIOS AND HYPNOSIS.    Members of both the lay and
professional communities frequently assume that material referring to UFO
abduction scenarios is retrieved under hypnosis.  Since it is generally
believed that people under hypnosis are open to the implantation of
suggestions through the overt or covert influence of the hypnotist it is
concluded that this material reproduces the hypnotists' expectations or
interests.  It is further concluded that since the hypnotist "put it there"
the abduction could not be accounted for as material which emerges solely from
the patient's end of dyad.

Thus, the abduction scenarios are commonly dismissed as merely representing
the production of desired material by compliant subjects. The abductees strong
sense of personal conviction that this really happened to him during the
session itself and upon recall of the session is similarly dismissed as an
artifact of the process by which the fantasies were generated.

        Several compelling factors mitigate against the facile dismissal of
data in this way.  Firstly, about 20% of these highly concordant abduction
scenarios are available spontaneously at the level of conscious awareness
prior to hypnosis.  (13,14)  These accounts may be enhanced or subjected to
further elaboration through the use of hypnosis or other recall enhancement
techniques, but in a significant number of people producing abduction
scenarios the recall is initially produced without recourse to such
techniques.  If their stories were substantially different from the concordant
abduction scenarios produced under regressive hypnosis, a different phenomenon
would be taking place.

       However, given the perplexing clinical presentation of similar stories
from dissimilar people who are uninformed about one another's experience, this
presents another highly interesting area of discrepancy.

        Hopkins has classified patterns of abduction recall into five
categories:

        Type 1.  patients consciously recall parts of the full abduction
scenario without hypnotic or other techniques designed to aid recall. The
emergence of this material may be delayed.

        Type 2.  patients recall the UFO sighting, surrounding circumstances
and/or aliens, but do not recall the abduction itself. Only a perceived gap in
time indicates any anomalous occurrence.

        Type 3.  patients recall a UFO and/or hominids but nothing else.
There is no sense of time lapse or dislocation.

        Type 4.  patients recall only a time lapse or dislocation.  No UFO
abduction scenario is recalled without the use of specific retrieval
techniques.

        Type 5.  patients recall noting relating to UFO or abduction
scenarios.  Instead they experience discrepant emotions ranging from uneasy
suspicions that "something happened to me" to intense, ego-dystonic fears of
specific locations, conditions or actions.  They may also exhibit unexplained
physical wounds and/or recurring dreams of abduction scenario content which
are not fixed in their experience as to place and time. (15)

        Examination of the transcripts of hypnotic sessions which yield
abduction material reveals that although subjects are sufficiently
suggestible to enter the trance state as directed by the therapist, they
resist having material "injected" into their account.  They customarily
refuse to be "lead" or distracted by the therapist's attempts to change
either the focus or content of their report.  The subject characteristically
insists upon correcting errors or distortions suggested or implied by the
hypnotist during the session.  Hence it is difficult to account for the
similarities and concordances of these scenarios through the mechanism of
suggestibility when these subjects so steadfastly refuse to be lead by
hypnotists.

        In fact, it is even more striking that while these patients feel the
material which they are producing both in and out of hypnosis as
experientially "real", nonetheless they frequently seek to discount or
explain away this bizarre and frightening material.  This remains true even
though sharing it regularly results in a significant remission of anxiety-
related symptoms and discomfort.  These abduction scenarios are so ego-alien
that they have frequently not shared the material with anyone at all or with
only a highly select group of trusted intimates. In the vast preponderance of
cases patients are reluctant to allow themselves to be publicly identified as
having had these experiences since the perceive that the abduction scenario is
so highly anomalous that they expect to experience ridicule and repudiation if
they become associated with it publicly.  It therefore functions like a guilty
secret in the way that rape has (and, unfortunately still does in some cases).

        After the material is produced and explored, these subjects often
experience a marked degree of relief.  This is true with reference both to
previously identified symptomatic behaviors and other anxiety manifestations
not noted on initial assessment.  These other symptoms may remit after
enhanced recall of the scenario and its details takes place.  It is
interesting to note that while the scenarios may contain a good deal of highly
traumatic material specifically related to reproductive functioning, these
episodes are nearly uniformly free of subjective erotic charge when either the
manifest or latent contents are examined.

        4.  POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER (PTSD) IN THE ABSENCE OF
EXTERNAL TRAUMA:        PTSD was first described in the content of battle
fatigue (16).  Although it may present in a wide variety of clinical guises
(17) PTSD is currently understood as a disorder which occurs in the context of
intolerable externally induced trauma which floods the victim with anxiety
and/or depression when his overwhelmed and paralyzed ego defenses prove
inadequate to the task of organizing unbearably stressful events.  In the
service of the patient's urgent attempt to still the tides of disorganizing
anxiety, fear or guilt<18> which accompany the emergence of cognitive, sensory
or emotional recall of these traumatic events, the trauma itself may be
either partly or completely unavailable to conscious recall. <19>...Both
physical and psychological responses to the trauma are profound and pervasive.
PTSD follows overwhelming real-life trauma and is not known to present as a
sequel to internally generated fantasy states.<20>

        This fourth area of discrepancy between predicted and observed data is
perhaps the most striking and challenging. Patients who produce alien
abduction material in the absence of psycopathology severe enough to account
for it often show the clinical picture of PTSD. This is remarkable when one
considers that it is possible that no traumatic event occured except that
rooted only in fantasy.  These trauma are, in large measure, split off, denied
and repressed as they are in other occurrences of PTSD.

        As discussed above, these scenarios frequently appear in individuals
who are otherwise free of any indication of significant emotional and
psychological instability or pre-existing severe psycopathology. On careful
clinical assessment, these memories do not appear to fill the intrapsychic
niches usually occupied by psychotic or psycho-neurotic formulations. The
abduction scenarios do not encapsulate or ward off unacceptable impulses, they
do not define <or defend against> split off affects, they are not used either
to stabilize or to divert current or archaic patterns of behavior nor do they
provide secondary gain or manipulative control for the individual.

        Instead, this material, experienced by the patient as unwelcome and
totally ego-dystonic, seems quite consistently to be woven into the fabric of
the patient's internal life only in terms of his reactive response to the
stress inherent in these experiences and the contents of the repressed
material related to the stressful memories.  But the extent of this secondary
response can be extensive.  It should be noted that PTSD has not previously
been thought to occur following trauma which has been generated solely by
internally states.  If abduction scenarios are in fact fantasies, then our
understanding of PTSD need to be suitably broadened to account for this
heretofore unexpected correlation.

        In addition, there are significant clinical implications to the
finding of abduction scenario material in a patient who shows PTSD but is
otherwise free of significant psychopathology.  Since abduction scenario
material presents several crucial areas of anomaly and discrepancy between
what is known and that which is observed.  It is very important for the
therapist to refrain from the comfortable (for the therapist, at least)
description of psychotic functioning to the patient who produces this material
until such disturbance is, in fact, demonstrated and corroborated by the
presence of other signs beside the UFO-related material.  It is imperative for
the therapist to adopt a non-judgemental stance.  He can attend to the
distress of the patient without attempting to confirm or deny possibilities
which are outside the specific area of his expertise.  The clinician should
adopt as his therapeutic priority the alleviation of the PTSD symptomology
through the use of appropriate and acceptable methods specific to the
treatment of PTSD.  In addition, the therapist must remember that while he may
have strong convictions pro or con the abduction actually having occurred, it
is not within either his capability or expertise to make such a judgement with
total certainty.  Furthermore, as the clinical psychologist who evaluated the
nine abductees pointed out in her addendum, the sophistication of the
psychotherapies has not advanced to the point at which this determination can
be made on the basis of currently available information (21), although the
treatment of post traumatic symptomology is currently understood.  Hence, it
is important for the therapist to retain the same non-judgemental and helpful
stance necessary to the successful treatment of any other traumatic insult.
When a therapist labels material as either unacceptable or insane, the
burden of the patient is increased.  If the therapist is reacting out of
prejudices which reflect his own closely-held beliefs rather than his
complete certainty, he unfairly increases the distress of the patient.

        SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS:        Although it has long been the
"common wisdom" of both the professional and lay communities that anyone
claiming to be the victim of abduction by UFO occupants must be seriously
disturbed, thoroughly deluded or a liar, careful examination of both the
reports and their reports calls this assumption into question. Clinical and
psychometric investigation of abductees reveals four areas of discrepancy
between the expected data and the observable phenomena and suggests further
investigation.  These discrepant areas are:

        1. ABSENCE OF PSYCHOPATHOLOGY   An unexpected absence of severe
psychopathology coupled with the high level of functioning found in many
abductees is a perplexing and surprising finding. Psychometric evaluation
of nine abductees revealed a notable heterogeneity of psychological and
psychometric characteristics.  The major area of homogeneity was in the
absence of significant psychopathology.  Rather than consulting a subset
of the severely disturbed and psychotic population, there is clinical
evidence that at least some abductees are high functioning, healthy
individuals.  This interesting discrepancy requires further investigation.

        2. CONCORDANCE OF REPORTS       Highly dissimilar people produce
strikingly similar accounts of abductions by UFO occupants.  The basic
scenarios are highly concordant in detail and events.  This is surprising in
light of the widely divergent cultural, socio-economic, educational,
occupational, intellectual and emotional status of abductees.  Further, the
scenarios themselves do not seem to show the same layering of affect and
symbolic richness present in other fantasy endowed material.  Instead,
symbolic and conceptual complexity centers around the meaning of the
experience for the individual, not around the shape, form, activity, intent,
etc., of the aliens and their environment.  This is in stark contrast to the
expected complexity and diversity of thematic and symbolic elaboration found
in our fantasy material.

        3. RESISTANCE TO SUGGESTION UNDER HYPNOSIS      Abduction scenario
concordance is frequently attributed to the introduction of material into the
suggestible mind of a hypnotized patient.  Examination of abduction reports
indicates that a significant percentage of these reports emerge into conscious
awareness prior to the use of hypnosis or other techniques employed to
stimulate recall.  Furthermore abductees resist being lead or diverted during
hypnosis and regularly insist on correcting the hypnotist so that their report
remains accurate according to their own perceptions.

        4. PTSD IN THE ABSENCE OF TRAUMA        Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder (PTSD) has not been previously reported in patients experiencing
overwhelming stress predicted only in internally generated states such as
psychotic delusional systems or phobias.  But patients reporting abduction
frequently show classic signs and symptoms of PTSD. Like other kinds of PTSD
it is subject to clinical intervention which frequently leads to substantial
clinical improvement.  But in order for this improvement to occur, the patient
must be treated for the PTSD he exhibits rather than the psychotic state he is
presumed to display by virtue of his abduction report.  If the abduction
scenarios represent only a fantasy state, then it is worth investigating why
(and how) this particular highly concordant and deeply disturbing fantasy is
involved in the pathogenesis of a condition otherwise seen only following
externally induced trauma. Further, if this is found to be the case, the
nature of PTSD itself should be re-examined in light of this finding.
Alternatively, it may be that the trauma is, in fact, an external one which
has taken place and the post traumatic state represents an expected response
on the part of a traumatized patient.

        It is not within the area of expertise of the clinician to make an
accurate determination about the objective validity of UFO abduction events.
But it is certainly within his purview to assist the patient in regaining a
sense of appropriate mastery, anxiety reduction and the alleviation of the
clinical symptomalogy as efficiently and effectively as possible.  This is
best accomplished through an assessment the patient's *actual* state of
psycho-dynamic organization, not his *presumed* state.  In other words, in
order to make the diagnosis of a psychotic or delusional state, findings other
than the presence of a belief in UFO abduction must be present.  In the
absence of other indications of severe psychopathology, it is inappropriate to
treat the patient as if he were afflicted with such psychopathology.  It lies
outside the realm of clinical expertise to determine with absolute certainty
whether or not a UFO abduction has indeed taken place. Patients should not be
viewed as demonstrating prima facie evidence of pervasive psychotic
dysfunction because of the abduction material alone nor should they be
hospitalized or treated with anti-psychotic medication based solely on the
presence of UFO abduction scenarios. Instead, they should be assessed on the
basis of their overall psychologic state.  Unless otherwise indicated,
treatment should be focused on the PTSD symptomatology and its repair.

        The areas of discrepancy which arise from the examination of UFO
abductees between the expected clinical finding and the observed ones
highlight interesting questions which require further investigation into
the nature and impact of fantasy on psycho-dynamic states and symptom
formation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1)Westrum, R., Social Intelligence About Hidden Events,
Knowledge:Creation, Diffusion, Utilization, Vol 3 No 3,
March 1982, p.382
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2)Hopkins, B. Missing Time: A Documented Study of UFO Abductions.
New York, Richard Marek 1981.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(3)Slater, E., Ph.D. "Conclusions on Nine Psychologicals" in
Final Report on the Psychological Testing of UFO Abductees"
Mt Ranier, MD, 1985
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(4)Slater, E., Ph.D. Addendum to "Conclusions on Nine Psychological"
in Final Report on the Psychological Testing of UFO "Abductees", op.cit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(5)Creighton, G. "The Amazing Case of Antonio Villas Boas" in
Rogo, D>S>, ed., Alien Abductions. New York, New American
Library, pp. 51-83, 1980.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(6)Hopkins,B. Missing Time: A Documented Study of UFO Abductions. op.cit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(7)Druffel,A. "Harrison Bailey and the 'Flying Saucer Disease'" in
Rogo, S.D., ed., op.cit.  pp. 122-137
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(8)Strieber, W. Communion. New York, Avon, 1987
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(9)Fowler, R. The Andreasson Affair. New York, Bantam Books, 1979
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(10)Fuller, J. The Interrupted Journey. New York, Dell, 1966
---------------------------------------
(11)Hopkins, B. Intruders: The Incredible Visitation at Copley Woods.
New York, Random House, 1987
--------------------------------------
(12)Hopkins, B. Personal communications with the author about the more
than 200 abductees whom Mr. Hopkins has investigated both with and
without the use of hypnosis.
---------------------------------------
(13)Westrum, R. personal communication with the author.
---------------------------------------
(14)Hopkins, B. personal communication with the author.
---------------------------------------
(15)Hopkins, B. "The Investigation of UFO Reports" in The Spectrum
of UFO Research. Proceedings of the Second CUFOS Conference
(September 25-27, 1981), Hynek, M. ed., pp 171-2, Chicago,
J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, 1988.
---------------------------------------
(16)Kardiner, A., The Traumatic Neuroses of War. New York,
P. Hoeber, 1941
---------------------------------------
(17)van Der Kolk, B.A., Psychological Trauma. Washington, DC, American
Psychiatric Press, 1987
---------------------------------------
(18)Horowitz,M.J., Stress Response Syndromes. New York, Jason Aronson,1976
---------------------------------------
(19)van Der Kolk, op.cit.
---------------------------------------
(20)American Psychiatric Association: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
of Mental Disorders, 3rd ed. Washington, DC,
American Psychiatric Association, 1980
---------------------------------------
(21)Slater, op.cit.
---------------------------------------

=END=

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Bio file of some UFO researchers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Nov 91 19:18:27 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 494


The following is a short bio of some of the researchers involved
in MUFON.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------




              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
           DESCRIPTION OF MUFON BIOGRAPHY SERIES OF ARTICLES
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The MUFONET-BBS Network is proud to present this series of short
biographies concerning researchers involved in UFO and related
scientific fields.  The biographies are provided with the approval of
the Mutual UFO Network, (MUFON) 103 Oldtowne Road, Seguin, Texas
78155.

The biographies are brief, covering basic education and experience of
each individual and their respective field(s) of pursuit.  These files
in no way contain all the biographical information about an
individual, but are offered to provide some understanding of the
researcher's background.

                              John Komar
                  Administrator - MUFONET-BBS Network
                   State Director - Tennessee/MUFON

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(c) MUFON 1991             JOHN S. CARPENTER
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John S. Carpenter obtained his Bachelor of Arts degree in Psychology
from DePauw University.  He then received a Masters of Social Work
from Washington University in St. Louis.  He was trained in Clinical
Hypnosis at the Menninger Clinic in Topeka, Kansas in 1980.  In 1983
he joined the Academy of Certified Social Workers.  He has been a
member of the American Group Psychotherapy Association for Marriage
and Family Therapy.  For the last twelve years he has provided
individual therapy, group therapy, marriage counseling, and family
therapy for a wide variety of hospitalized psychiatric patients in the
Springfield, Missouri region.

Parallel to his professional growth is his long-standing interest in
UFOs ---ever since he could first read as a little boy.  He became the
State Section Director in the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) for counties
in southwest Missouri in 1988 and began receiving referrals for
investigative research and hypnotherapy with alleged abductees from
other researchers such as Budd Hopkins, Stanton Friedman, Walt Andrus,
Linda Howe and Ted Phillips.  He was involved in the professional
conferences -- TREAT I in 1989, and 1991's National Conference on
Anomalous Experiences held in Philadelphia.  He has been a speaker for
the 1989 Close Encounters Forum in Aspen, Colorado, the 1990 SHOW-ME
Conference in Missouri, the 1991 Ozark UFO Conference in Eureka
Springs, and now the 1991 International MUFON UFO Symposium in
Chicago.

He and several of his cases were featured in Linda Howe's 1990
documentary sequel to her Emmy Award-winning "A Strange Harvest".
More recently, John has received international recognition for his
investigative hypnosis with Gerald Anderson, a saucer crash witness
from 1947, referred by Stanton Friedman.  His research into the
abduction mystery has taken him to work with people from many
different geographical locations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(c) MUFON 1991            Michael M. Chorost
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Michael M. Chorost was born in 1964 in Elizabeth, New Jersey.  He
received his B.A. from Brown University and a M.A. in English
Literature from the University of Texas as Austin in 1990.  Michael is
now working toward a Ph.D.  in Renaissance Literature and Philosophy
of Language.  After becoming intrigued with the mystery of the crop
circle phenomenon, during June and July 1990, he traveled to England
spending three weeks studying the enigma firsthand.

Mr. Chorost published his first article on the subject, titled "The
Summer 1990 Crop Circles" coauthored with Colin Andrews in the
December 1990 issue of the "MUFON UFO JOURNAL".  He serves on the
MUFON staff as the Crop Circles Specialist.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------



              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(c) MUFON 1991            STANTON T. FRIEDMAN
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nuclear Physicist-Lecturer Stanton T. Friedman has managed to carve
out three different professional careers since receiving his M.S.
Degree in Physics from the University of Chicago in 1956.  His
employers have included General Electric, General Motors, Aerojet
General Nucleonics, Westinghouse and TRW.  The programs involved
nuclear aircraft, fission and fusion rockets and nuclear systems for
space applications.

He first became interested in UFOs in 1958.  Between 1970 and 1982 he
devoted full time to lecturing, investigating, and writing about UFOs.
He has now given his always changing program "Flying Saucers Are Real"
at more than 600 colleges and to dozens of professional groups in all
50 states, in 8 provinces of Canada, in Puerto Rico, the District of
Columbia and in England.

Stanton moved to Fredericton, New Brunswick, in 1980.  Since 1982, he
has combined continued lecturing with a busy career as a science
consultant working in such areas as food irradiation, seed stimulation
with radiation, the recovery of waste heat from power plants, the use
of electron accelerators for commercial applications and flue gas
treatment to reduce acid rain emissions.  He was awarded $16,000, the
largest research grant ever made by the Fund for UFO Research, to
continue his extensive research into the validity of Operations
Majestic - 12 and the story behind the Roswell crash.  Over the years
he has visited a total of 14 different document archives.

He has also appeared on hundreds of radio and TV programs including
"Nightline", "Merv Griffin" and a host more.  He was very heavily
involved in the writing and filming of the prize winning documentary
movie "UFOs Are real" and also participated in several others
including "UFO Cover-UP?...Live".  He has spoken at more MUFON
symposia, than anyone, starting in 1971, attesting to his popularity.
He was elected to the MUFON Board of Directors in 1990 as Director of
Special Investigations, having served as a Consultant in Nuclear
Physics since 1972.  he will coauthor a new book on Roswell with Don
Berliner in 1991 or early 1992.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------



              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(c) MUFON 1991            LINDA MOULTON HOWE
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Linda Moulton Howe is a graduate of Stanford university with a Masters
Degree in Communications.  She has devoted her film and television
career to documentary and studio productions concerning science,
medicine and the environment.  Miss Howe has received local, national
and international awards, including three regional Emmies for her
documentaries.

One honored "A Strange Harvest", a film which explored the worldwide
animal mutilation mystery which haunted the U.S., Canada, Mexico,
Central and South America, Australia, parts of Europe and the Canary
Islands off the African coast since the late 1960's -- and continues
to date.

In 1989, she produced a synthesis of her last ten years of research
and personal experiences with the alien phenomena in a book entitled
"An Alien Harvest - Further Evidence Linking Animal Mutilation and
Human Abductions to Alien Life Forms".  She also worked in 1989 as
Director of International Programming for "Earthbeat," an
environmental series broadcast on WTBS Superstation from Atlanta.

Linda is developing a paperback edition of her book "An Alien
Harvest".  Her most recent television productions in 1990 included the
creation of the CNN Reel News series for theater release in New York
City;  a two-hour special "Earth Mysteries: Alien Life Forms" in
association with WATL/FOX 36 in Atlanta, Georgia; and a half-hour
documentary about International child survival efforts for UNICEF, New
York, entitled "The Pressure of Fact."  1991: Supervising Producer and
Writer, "Mysteries of the Universe" Hour Special for the Fox network.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------




              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(c) MUFON 1991              DAVID M. JACOBS
                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

David M. Jacobs is Associate Professor of History at Temple
University, specializing in twentieth century American History.

He has been a UFO Researcher for twenty-five years.  He wrote his
doctoral disertatation in the field of intellectual history at the
University of Wisconsin, Madison in 1973 on the controversy over UFOs
in America.  His first book, "The UFO Controversy In America", was
published by Indiana University Press (1975).  It remains the only
book that takes a positive viewpoint toward UFOs ever published by an
academic press.  He has given numerous speeches and written many
articles and papers on the subject of UFOs.  he is a Consultant in
history to MUFON.  For the past fourteen years he has offered the only
regularly scheduled undergraduate course on UFOs at any university in
the U.S.A.

In recent years he has turned his attention exclusively to the UFO
abduction phenomenon.  he has conducted over 300 hypnotic regressions.
he and Budd Hopkins recently put on a conference at Temple University
for researchers, psychiatrists, psychologists, and other therapists
from around the country on the abduction phenomenon.  He is the
recipient with Budd Hopkins of a $200,000 grant to conduct a poll to
discern the magnitude of the abduction phenomenon and to compile
compendium of abduction accounts.  His new book "Secret Life: The
Structure and Meaning of UFO Abductions", will be published by Simon
and Schuster early in 1992.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(c) MUFON 1991             BRUCE S. MACCABEE
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dr. Bruce Maccabee was born May 6, 1942 in Rutland, Vermont.  He
received a B.S. in Physics from Worchester Polytechnique Institute
(1964) a M.S. and Ph.D. in Physics from American University in 1967
and 1970, respectively.  After serving as a Laser Physics Consultant
in private industry, in 1972 he assumed his current position as a
Research Physicist at the Naval Surface Weapons Center in Silver
Spring, MD.  He has worked on optical data processing, underwater
sound, high energy lasers and, most recently, on various aspects of
the Strategic Defense Initiative (DSI).

Bruce was a member of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial
Phenomena (NICAP) from 1968 until its demise.  He became a member of
the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) in 1975 and was subsequently appointed
State Director for Maryland and Consultant in Photo Analysis and Laser
Physics.  In 1979, he and several other Washington, D.C. area
UFOlogists established the Fund for UFO Research, of which he is the
chairman.  Bruce has carried out numerous UFO case investigations,
specializing in photographic cases.  He is, perhaps, best known for
his analysis of the McMinnville, Oregon photo case (May 1950), the New
Zealand multiple witness/film/radar sightings (December 1978) and more
recently, the Gulf breeze, Florida sightings.  he has also done some
historical research and was the first person to publish articles on
the FBI "flying disc" file which he requested and obtained under the
Freedom of Information Act.

Dr. Maccabee is the author or coauthor of about three dozen technical
articles and about an equal number of UFO related articles.  he is
listed in "American Men and Women of Science" and in "Who's Who in
Technology Today".  He has been interviewed by the news media numerous
times and has appeared on national TV and radio talk shows, most
notably the "Larry King Show", "Good Morning America" and "Night
Line".

In his spare time, Bruce is active musically as a pianist, having
played solo and with bands in the Washington area.  Also, he has given
several formal concerts in the Washington and Baltimore areas.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------




              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(c) MUFON 1991             JEAN-PIERRE PETIT
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Professor Jean-Pierre Petit is a specialist in plasma physics and
General Relativity Theory.  He is a senior researcher at the French
Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique and has been a member of
the Observatory of Marseille for 15 years.  He has published his works
in the most prestigious scientific journals of theoretical physics,
such as "Modern Physics Letters".

He is the recent author of a new book titled "Enquete sur les Ovnis"
(Investigating UFOs) published by Albin Michel (1990).  Petit explains
the reasons why "we cannot exclude the possibility that UFOs are
piloted by beings originating elsewhere in the universe."  In an
interview with Jean-Pierre Petit by Marie-Therese de Brosses,
originally published in the August 9, 1990 issue of "Paris match", his
theories, scientific conclusions on UFOs, and possible propulsion
methods were delineated.  This superb interview was translated from
the Paris "Match" article by Robert J.  Durant and his wife and
published in the "MUFON UFO Journal", Number 273, January 1991.

A quotation from this interview reflects Professor Petit's philosophy
regarding UFOs - "To manufacture such a machine would require that the
engine develop an amount of power equivalent to that of a large
nuclear power generating plant.  And if there is anything not amenable
to miniaturization, it is a nuclear plant.  Conclusion: the machines
seen in Belgium are not of terrestrial origin."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------




              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(c) MUFON 1991             GENE M. PHILLIPS
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gene M. Phillips founded the Ancient Astronaut Society on September
14, 1973, incorporated in Illinois as a non-profit, tax-exempt
organization operated exclusively for scientific, literary and
educational purposes.  The objectives of the Society are to search for
evidence to determine whether a highly-developed, technological
civilization existed on earth before our recorded history, and to
determine whether our planet was visited by intelligent beings
from outer space in the remote past.

Mr. Phillips was born in Beaver, West Virginia in 1926.  He has a
Bachelor's degree in Business Administration from Virginia Tech, a MBA
degree from Harvard University and a Juris Doctor degree from
Northwestern School of Law.  He is currently a practicing corporate
attorney in Highland Park, Illinois.  Since founding the Ancient
Astronaut Society, Mr. Phillips has earned a world-wide reputation in
the field through extensive reading and research and visiting
archaeological sites and museums throughout the world.  he has
presented many lectures and slide presentations and has appeared on
numerous radio and television programs.  Mr. Phillips is the President
of the Society and the Editor of the English edition of "Ancient
Skies".

In 1977 and again in 1983, Gene Phillips visited Peru and flew over
the Plain of Nazca in a small plane at an altitude of about 500 feet
and personally photographed the area. Many of these photos were
presented at the 1991 MUFON UFO International Symposium, held in
Chicago, Illinois, and are contained in the video tapes from this
symposium.

Mr. Phillips has accepted the challenge to solve this fantastic
mystery just as ufologists have dedicated themselves to resolving the
UFO enigma.  Through his on-sight investigations and historical study
of previously authored books, he has found that the mystery cannot be
explained as casually as some authors and investigators have done in
the past.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------




              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(c) MUFON 1991             ZECHARIA SITCHIN
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Zecharia Sitchin was born in Russia and raised in Palestine, where he
acquired a profound knowledge of modern and ancient Hebrew, other
Semitic and European languages, the Old testament, and the history of
archaeology of the Near East.  He attended the London School of
Economics and Political Science, and graduated from the University of
London, majoring in economic history.

A leading journalist and editor in Israel for many years, he now lives
and writes in New York.  he is a member of the Israel Exploration
Society, the American Oriental Society, and the Middle East Studies
Association of North America.

His four books in "The Earth Chronicles" series have been published
and re-published in both hardcover and paperback editions and widely
translated into many languages, including German, French, Spanish,
Portuguese, Italian, Dutch, Swedish and Japanese.  The scientific
advances since the publication of the first book, "The 12th Planet",
in 1976 have confirmed many of the innovative and pioneering theories
and conclusions of Sitchin's books, attesting to the accuracy of
Sumerian knowledge 6,000 years ago.  His first book was followed in
1980 by "The Stairway To Heaven" and in 1985 by "The War Of Gods And
Men";  book IV of the series titled "The Last Realms" (1990),
encompasses the ancient events and civilizations of the Americas.

Sitchin's latest book, "Genesis Revisited", was published October 1990
by Avon in paperback and in January 1991 by Bear and Co. in hardcover.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------




              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(c) MUFON 1991               DENNIS STACY
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dennis Stacy was born in 1946 and graduated from the University of
Texas at Austin in 1970 with a Bachelor of Arts Degree in English.
Widely traveled, for the past decade he has been a free-lance writer
based in San Antonio.

Stacy's articles, interviews and pictures have appeared in a wide
variety of magazines, newspapers and anthologies both in this country
and abroad, including "New Scientist", Smithsonian "Air & Space",
"Omni", the "New Age Journal", "southwest Spirit" and "Fortean Times",
among others.

He is the author of two unproduced screenplays and served as a
consultant on two segments produced for NBC-TV's "Unsolved Mysteries"
program.  He currently edits the "MUFON UFO Journal" and reviews
computer hard and software products for two popular industry
publications while continuing his outside writing career.  Stacy has
contributed chapters to at least three UFO compilations, including
"Phenomenon, UFOs 1947-1987" and the just-published "UFOs: The
Definitive Casebook".

With Michael Chorost, and as director of the Complete Circle Project,
he is at work compiling a comprehensive bibliography of Crop Circle
and related writings, and welcomes any and all contributions.
beginning this year, his column, "Science Watch", will appear
regularly in "Fortean Times".  His self - published papers include
"The Marfa Lights: A Viewer's Guide" and the "Crop Circles
Bibliography" compiled by Michael Chorost.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------




              MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(c) MUFON 1991             MICHAEL D. SWORDS
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Michael D. Swords is a Professor of Natural Science at Western
Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan.  He graduated from the
University of Notre Dame in 1962 with a B.S. degree in Chemistry, and
also holds an M.S.  degree from Iowa State University in Biochemistry
(1965), and a Ph.D. from Case Western Reserve university (1972).

His major professional and involvements are teaching and writing in
the areas of general sciences and anomalous phenomena.  His teaching
centers about human biology, the history and philosophy of science,
scientific methodology, and the "parasciences" of which UFOlogy is a
member.  His writings have concentrated mainly on topics in UFOlogy,
parapsychology, and cryptozoology, and several have been published in
the "MUFON UFO Journal".  He has won University's Teaching Excellence
Award (1978).

Dr. Swords is a member of several professional and parascientific
societies including the American Association for the Advancement of
Science, the American Association of University Professors, the
Society for Scientific Exploration, and the Mutual UFO Network
(MUFON).  He serves as a MUFON consultant and was in the same capacity
for the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, the International
Fortean Organization, and as a member of the advisor panel for the
Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained.  he is a Board
member of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, and is the editor
of UFOlogy's academic journal: "The Journal of UFO Studies".

Dr. Swords originally spoke at the MUFON 1986 UFO Symposium in East
Lansing, Michigan.  He has recently presented materials at the
"Abductions" Conferences of TREAT II (VPI, 1990) and NCAE (Temple,
1991), as well as the National Science Teachers Association (Phoenix,
1989).

=END=

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john
From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <1991Nov17.222534.21210@anasaz>
Date: 17 Nov 91 22:25:34 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA
Lines: 38

Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes:
]>]Wait a second!  Now perhaps my arithmetic is bad, but if the odds of my
]>]getting killed by an asteroid (spread over my whole lifetime) are
]>]1 in 10,000, then wouldn't we not expect that for similar lifetimes of
]>]every 10,000 people, that about one of them is getting killed by an asteroid?
]>]So with a planet of a population of approx. 5,000,000,000 (5 billion), we
]>]would expect there would be up to 500,000 asteroid-related deaths!
]>
]>Yes, if the deaths were independent events. However, since an asteroid
]>strike would likely kill many millions to billions, the deaths are not
]>independent.  ie... your math is bad.
]>
]
]
]Uh oh!  Seems my math is bad!  Honestly, I don't understand how you can
]come up with an answer of 1 in 10000 as odds of getting killed by an
]asteroid during my lifetime.  To me, those look really really high.  I'd
]more likely believe an answer like one in a million, or billion, or
]what have you.  The only way I can accept that answer of 1 in 10000 is if
]you assume an asteroid DOES hit - was this the original assumption this
]answer is based on?

I didn't come up with it... the astronomers did. However, here is a way
to look at it... Assume an asteroid hits every 20,000 years with disastrous
effects. What are the odds that it will hit in your lifetime? I wish I
could go back and look at the article, but I can't.

By thy way, the astronomer's number might be one in 25000 or one in 50000,
but the number I remember is one in 10,000.


--
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john [e-mail] anasaz![e-mail]
 - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - -
 - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!sa2y+
From: [e-mail] (Steven Anselmo Aiello)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.angst,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 11:40:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Freshman, CIT general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 1
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3686 alt.angst:2557 alt.alien.visitors:3166
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

enough about the fictional asteroid please.   thank you.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!uofs!vulture.cs.uofs.edu!bill
From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 12:45:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Department of Computing Sciences
Lines: 16
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Nntp-Posting-Host: vulture.cs.uofs.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|>
|> What kind of trade agreements.  What could we have that they would want
|> or need.
|>

Did you ever see an episode of a well known old TV show with the title:
                   "How to serve man"

"I'll have a large Iowan to go please.  And hold the ketchup."

--

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     [e-mail]   |  This space would be left intentionally blank
     [e-mail]    |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!danwell
From: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Shroud and HOLIER THAN THOU vagueness.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 13:44:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
Lines: 46
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17763 talk.religion.newage:7714 alt.atheism:18055 alt.alien.visitors:3168

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Sharon Foster) writes:
>>[someone else writes:]
>>     A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up --
>> when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin
>> was a
>> hoax.
>
>
> Applying scientific thinking to theological ideas is about
> as useful, and valid, as applying theological thinking to
> scientific ideas.
>
> Being a Christian does not depend on the age of a piece of cloth.
>

   I must object on several points.  The age of the Shroud of Turin is a matter
of verifiable fact and hence not solely theological.  Second, many theological
ideas such as the literal truth of the biblical fllod fell to bits under the
application of "scientific thinking".

   My strongest objection is that your final sentence seems to imply that you
think all Christians are fanatics?  The person you quote thinks fanatics
should shut up, not all Christians.  In addition you seem to think the
Shroud of Turin, a clear forgery, is nevertheless a legitamate relic?

   Clearly I'm putting the meanest possible interpretation on everything you
said, which leads to my final objection; the above leaves your actual position
vague and blurry: please clarify it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                           A Thought on the Shroud

   I was watching one of Iowa State Universities "for credit" telecourses
while doing some grading last month.  It was on the archetecture of medieval
churches.  One point they made in the program was that the income of both a
church and the surrounding town were wildly dependent of the type and quality
of relics the church posessed.  Good relics would bring in pilgrims (money)
from all over Europe.

   Think, then, for a moment, of the benifit to the local economy of having the
burial shroud of Jesus Christ (himself!).  I mention this because I have seen
in this forum that the putative forgers of the shroud have means and
opportunity.  I thought it would be nice to include motive.

Dan
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bio file of some UFO researchers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 14:16:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 7
Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com


What, no entry for Jacques Vallee?
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!haven.umd.edu!wam.umd.edu!arh
From: [e-mail] (Arash Kamangeer)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 15:21:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News system)
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park
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Nntp-Posting-Host: wam.umd.edu

From: Truyen C. Lam <cmsclam>
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 14:11:05 -0500
To: arvand

>From [e-mail] Fri Nov 15 14:03:14 1991
Received: from umdd.umd.edu by csc-srv.wam.umd.edu

>I received this letter on e-mail.  I donot know how and why I was the
>selected lucky one.  But if any body knows anything about these things
>to explain to me what is the purpose and meaning of such letters and what
>the sender(s) are trying to accomplish, I would appreciated the info.

Dear everybody:



                With Love, All Things Are Possible

This paper has been sent to you for good luck.  The original came
from New
England.  It has been around the world nine times.  The luck has now
been
sent to you.  You will receive good luck within four days of
receiving this
letter - provided you in turn send it out.

This is no joke.  You will recieve good luck in the mail.  SEND NO
MONEY.
Send copies to people you think need good luck.  Don't send money, as
fate
has no price.  Do not keep this letter.  It must leave your hands
within 96
hours.

An AAF Officer received $470,000.00.  Lee Elliot received $40,000.00
and
lost it because he broke the chain.  While in the Philippines, Gene
Welch
lost his wife 51 days after receiving the letter.  He failed to
circulate
the letter.  However, before her death he received $7,750,000.00

Please send twenty copies and see what happens in four days.  The
chain
comes from Venezuela and was written by St. Anthony DeGread, a
missionary
from South America.  Since the copy must tour the world, you must
make
twenty copies and send them to friends and associates.  After a few
days
you will get a surprise -- this is true! -- even if you are not
superstitious.

Do not do the following:  Constantine Dias received the chain in
1953.  He
asked his secretary to make twenty copies and send them out.  A few
days
later she won the lottery of two million dollars.  Coral Daddit, an
office
employee, received the letter and forgot it had to leave his hands in
96
hours.  He lost his job.  Later, after finding the letter again, he
mailed
twenty copies.  A few days later, he got a better job.  Dalan
Fairchild
received the letter and not believing, threw the letter away, nine
days
later, he died.

In 1987, the letter was received by a young woman in California.  It
was
very faded and barely readable.  She promised herself that she would
retype
the letter and send it on, but she put it aside to do later.  She was
plagued with various problems, including expensive car repairs.  The
letter
did not leave her hands for 96 hours.  She finally typed the letter
as
promised and mailed them out.  She got a new car.

Remember, send no money.  Do not ignore this letter!

                        St. Jude
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!utzoo!mnetor!geac!maccs!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Nov 91 23:28:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA
Lines: 31
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17772 talk.religion.newage:7716 alt.atheism:18066 alt.alien.visitors:3171

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Sharon Foster) writes:
>>
>>     A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up --
>> when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin was a
>> hoax.
>
>
>Applying scientific thinking to theological ideas is about
>as useful, and valid, as applying theological thinking to
>scientific ideas.
>
>Being a Christian does not depend on the age of a piece of cloth.
>

But science can PROVE that the cloth dates from the medievil ages not
roman times so I do not understand how you can back this up. Science
can talk about ANYTHING that can be quantified. Whether or not this
universe was created by an intelligent being is a quantitative real event
so science can indicate its likelihood. The only place science can not
go is the experience of human feelings, the qualitative aspects.

ALEX BUNKER

>--
>Sharon "Just Another Bleeding-Heart Liberal" Foster
>
>/* Sharon Foster....First Generation Trekkie  *      [e-mail]        */
>/*        These are my own Biased Personal Opinions (tm).                  */
>/* "Jesus asked us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and house the     */
>/* homeless; he didn't mention anything about asking them for a financial  */
>/* statement."    - me                                                     */
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!sarah!newserve!bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu!kym
From: [e-mail] (R. Kym Horsell)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 17:01:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr News)
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
Lines: 27
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Nntp-Posting-Host: bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Arash Kamangeer) writes:
>From: Truyen C. Lam <cmsclam>
>Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 14:11:05 -0500
>To: arvand
>
>>From [e-mail] Fri Nov 15 14:03:14 1991
>Received: from umdd.umd.edu by csc-srv.wam.umd.edu
>
>>I received this letter on e-mail.  I donot know how and why I was the
>>selected lucky one.  But if any body knows anything about these things
>>to explain to me what is the purpose and meaning of such letters and what
>>the sender(s) are trying to accomplish, I would appreciated the info.
[some chain letter or other deleted]

This sort of stuff regularly does the rounds. Being filled with what I
would consider superstitious rubbish it has not point that I know of.
I'm not sure I've seen this _particular_ letter before but the classic
``carrot and big stick'' seems familiar.

I have noticed at this college the ``selected lucky people'' are foreign
students (I thought I had a nice foreign name but I've never received
such a ``nice'' letter ;-) )?

Perhaps watch out for people who will shortly approach you telling you
you've got a shot at winning a million dollars. ;-)

-kym
Path: ns-mx!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 17:17:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
Lines: 38
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17774 alt.alien.visitors:3173
Originator: grante@aquarius
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius

[e-mail] (Laurence Doering):
>
> As a graduate student in computer science (therefore an engineer)

[stuff about how easy it is for a trained person to mistake a planet
for something else]

>
> "trained engineer."

You are probably correct about venus and airplanes and such but I have
one question:

How does being a graduate student in _computer_science_ make you an
engineer???

Computer scicence is not an engineering field.  It's much closer to
math than engineering.  I've taken 50 or 60 credits of undergraduate
and graduate computer science courses at three different universities
and even the ones called "Software Engineering" had nothing to do with
engineering.

Hell, being a graduate student in an engineering field doesn't even
make you an engineer.  Engineering is a professional not an academic
field.  Check the job titles of the people in the university
engineering departments, you won't find any engineers, just TAs,
instructors, and professors.

I don't walk around claiming to be a scientist, so please do me the
courtesy of not claiming to be an engineer.



--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow! Was my SOY LOAF left out
Rosemount Inc.                                |in th'RAIN? It tastes REAL
                                              |GOOD!!
[e-mail]                 |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!mailgzrz!w254zrz!hakiaahb
From: [e-mail] (Hakan Kayal)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 17:39:40 GMT
References: <1991Nov17.222534.21210@anasaz>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 11

Some month's ago I had read somewhere (I think it was "Der Spiegel" a
serios political magazine in Germany) about a large meteorid which has
missed to hit Earth whith a difference of about five minutes in it's
trajectory. It was claimed that after that, it was recommened by some
physicians to establish an improved observing system for meteorids encountering
Earth's trajectoy.

I think it is important. There is indeath no guarantee for a case of collision.
It MIGHT be usefull to now of something like that some months ago.

Hakan Kayal
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watdragon!watyew!jdnicoll
From: [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Thermonuclear Explosives (was Scientists Think)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 20:04:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Waterloo
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>
>>    Hmmm. India clearly can make fission weapons, but as far as I
>>know, they have not exploded a fusion device. In the absense of such
>>a fusion bomb test, how can Inda have killed people with them? Ditto
>>for covert members of the nuclear club, like Israel and South
>>Africa.
>
>Whoops, I was wrong in making the assumption that a country that
>develops fission weapons, would naturally go onto developing
>fusion weapons as well.  Which countries have developed fusion
>weapons, aside from the US and the USSR?

    Sometimes nations which have had a hand in developing fission
weapons don't even go on to make fission weapons for themselves (Canada
comes to mind).

    The Official Members of the Thermonuclear club are the USA, the USSR
(Dunno who gets the bombs in the event of the USSR disintegrating, but
judging from where the Strategic Rocket forces are being relocated to,
non-Russians need not apply, even though they paid for them), the UK,
France and China. Unofficial members may include Israel and South Africa.

    Nations which have detonated fission explosives without officially
going on to build thermonuclear weapons seem to limited to a count of one:
India. I am unaware of evidence that India has or intends to build their
own H-bombs, despite having a neighbor with whom hostilities are fairly
frequent, who *is* armed with thermonuclear weapons.

>The deaths I was refering to would have been from directly
>nuclear related effects, either from manufacture or detonation.

                                James Nicoll
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!ldoering
From: [e-mail] (Laurence Doering)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <Bgk_=[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 21:08:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 30
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17778 alt.alien.visitors:3176

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
>
>You are probably correct about venus and airplanes and such but I have
>one question:
>
>How does being a graduate student in _computer_science_ make you an
>engineer???
>
> [...]
>
>I don't walk around claiming to be a scientist, so please do me the
>courtesy of not claiming to be an engineer.

Sorry if I stepped on a professional toe or two there.  In my defense, I
could say I spent 4 years being called a "software engineer" by my old
company, and the University of Michigan says I'm enrolled in the School
of Engineering.  I'll be the first to admit that "Computer Science and
Engineering" doesn't actually have much to do with science OR engineering
in the traditional sense.

Anyway, I think the point I was trying to make was that having some sort
of technical education doesn't necessarily make a person a "trained
observer".  Many reports of UFO sightings (such as Jimmy Carter's) are
given added importance because the UFOs were seen by a genuine nuclear
engineer (in Carter's case), an "experienced airline pilot", or whatever.

While I don't know for sure, I suspect I'm at least as "qualified" to
observe things in the sky as Jimmy Carter.  If I could be fooled into
thinking an airplane was Venus, I see no reason why Carter couldn't have
been fooled into thinking Venus was some sort of unknown phenomenon.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tornado/'The purpose of our Earth"/(sigh) Stollman, again...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 22:35:08 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 17


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>
>Anyone know any more about this topic?  I'm serious; I don't
>want you to tell me about how your friends from the Pleiades
>or Venus are doing it.
>--------------------------------------------------------

They have been reported in the U.S., Max .... and in Japan and Australia and
numerous other countries.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 22:35:21 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 14


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler) writes...
>Do you mean that it was built by the Japanese?

Guess so :-) ... who else could do it?

Well, the Russians maybe... they're pretty good at putting up space
stations, I guess.
---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+
From: [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <8d_3cYW00aw4E=[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 22:09:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 9
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In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>


    Sending chain letters on the Internet (and many other networks) is an
extremely serious violation of policies and can result in termination of
network priviledges, action by the system administators of your
site/network connection including termination of your account/access, or
disciplinary action if you are at a university, up to and including
explusion, and possible legal prosecution. It also wastes limited
network resources and annoys countless people, numbering up to the
thousands, so *DON'T DO IT!*
Path: ns-mx!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!gritz
From: [e-mail] (Larry Gritz)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 23:31:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: US Naval Observatory, Washington DC
Lines: 59
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17781 alt.alien.visitors:3180

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
>Most engineers have enough knowledge of the physical sciences to be
>called "trained observers", and I don't believe that one engineer
>could be fooled into believing that Venus is a UFO under any circumstances
>except that they are drunk or drugged or insane or legally blind.

Um, I beg to differ.  I have noticed that surprisingly few people (including
engineers and other assorted techies) are experienced at observing
astronomical phenomena.  I think it quite possible that J.C. could simply
not realize how very bright Venus can appear, and therefore assumed that
it was not an astronomical object.  Also, I don't know what the geographic
or atmospheric details were for the sighting, but it also wouldn't surprise
me if J.C. underestimated the amount of movement, flickering, and color
change that turbulent atmosphere can cause on objects close to the
horizon.

>You
>are correct in pointing out that for a given subtended angle one does not know
>the distance to an object.  But I'm sure that what J.C. and his friends
>saw had a measurable subtended angle (measurable by eye), and this is what
>caused J.C. to take notice.
>
>If a person reports a UFO, and they can give some idea of the size of it
>(using, for example, the arm's length test), then what they saw cannot be a
>planet

Are you implying that planets do not subtend an angle?  My
Astronomical Almanac says that Venus subtends a maximum angle, from
our point of view, of 58 seconds of arc.  This is about 1/30 the
diameter of the full moon.  I think this is quite noticeable.  I did
some back of the envelope calculations: If you have a 19" video
monitor with 1280x1024 resolution and you can tell the difference
between a period and a comma on the screen when standing about 8 feet
away, then you are capable of differentiating a 1 minute subtended
angle from a point source.  (I can tell the difference.)

There is also a well-known and overdiscussed optical illusion in which
the subtended angle of a distant object appears larger when it is
close to the horizon (I believe this was part of J.C.'s description).

>| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
> ...
>"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
>coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
>nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.

I like that quote.

Later,
    -- lg
--
Larry Gritz                                   [e-mail]
US Naval Observatory                          phone: [phone]
Washington, DC 20392-5100                     also: [e-mail]

--
Larry Gritz                                   [e-mail]
US Naval Observatory                          phone: [phone]
Washington, DC 20392-5100                     also: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!gatech!uflorida!sol!snively
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 23:39:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17783 alt.paranormal:3693 alt.alien.visitors:3181 talk.religion.newage:7723
Originator: @shark.cse.fau.edu

[e-mail] (Arash Kamangeer) writes:

> >I received this letter on e-mail.  I donot know how and why I was the
> >selected lucky one.  But if any body knows anything about these things
> >to explain to me what is the purpose and meaning of such letters and what
> >the sender(s) are trying to accomplish, I would appreciated the info.

        This is very funny.  I sent this "chain letter" to 20 people (as
requested), but hand delivered, not by email.  I didn't think of e-mailing
people with chain letters.  I would hate it, so I won't do it.

Steve - "You think that's funny?"


--- InterNet: [e-mail]
Steve Snively: SysOp of "Time Enough For Love BBS" [phone]

"Jesus saves, passes|  Don't even think that  |   I'm the only kid in
 to Moses, he shoots|  I'm Christian; Call me |  high school that knows
     HE SCORES!!!"  |          a Yogi         |   what a trackstand is.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!gritz
From: [e-mail] (Larry Gritz)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 23:41:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: US Naval Observatory
Lines: 58
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17785 alt.alien.visitors:3182

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
>[e-mail] (Laurence Doering):
>>
>> As a graduate student in computer science (therefore an engineer)
>> "trained engineer."
>
>You are probably correct about venus and airplanes and such but I have
>one question:
>
>How does being a graduate student in _computer_science_ make you an
>engineer???
>
>Computer scicence is not an engineering field.  It's much closer to
>math than engineering.  I've taken 50 or 60 credits of undergraduate
>and graduate computer science courses at three different universities
>and even the ones called "Software Engineering" had nothing to do with
>engineering.

Depends on where you study.  When I was an undergrad at Cornell University,
the CS department was split between the school of engineering and the
school of arts and sciences.  Which school you were in determined, in part,
your course of study.  The people in the arts school duplicated much of
the math curriculum, as you said.  But the people in the engineering school
had a curriculum much closer to those in EE.  I was a double major most
of the way through, and when I graduated with my BS in CS (concentration
in EE), I had completed nearly all the requirements for a BS in EE as well.


>Hell, being a graduate student in an engineering field doesn't even
>make you an engineer.  Engineering is a professional not an academic
>field.

This is a matter of opinion.  I think I tend to agree, but not everybody
does.


>I don't walk around claiming to be a scientist, so please do me the
>courtesy of not claiming to be an engineer.

A bit high strung, aren't we?


Anyway, the point is moot.  The original point was whether a "trained
engineer" was a good observer of astronomical phenomena.  I think that
a CS education (or work experience) gives one exactly the same preparation
(or lack thereof) for observing Venus as an education in Mech. E., for
example.

    -- Larry Gritz

--
Larry Gritz                                   [e-mail]
US Naval Observatory                          phone: [phone]
Washington, DC 20392-5100                     also: [e-mail]
--
Larry Gritz                                   [e-mail]
US Naval Observatory                          phone: [phone]
Washington, DC 20392-5100                     also: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 02:16:43 GMT
References: <9=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 26
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Fri, 15 Nov 91 23:21:53 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>
> If a person reports a UFO, and they can give some idea of the size of it
> (using, for example, the arm's length test), then what they saw cannot be a
> planet (unless it can be shown that the person has one of the afflictions
> mentioned above).  IMHO, the Venus explanation for UFO's has been overused
> and misused by the so-called "experts", making me come to the conclusion
> that these "experts" are either not very expert, or that they have a hidden
> agenda or motivation for using this explanation.

    That may be your opinion but it does not change the fact that Venus *is*
the single most commonly reported "UFO".  You'll find that fact listed in "The
UFO Handbook" as a warning to people who are investigating and reporting UFO
sightings.  Years ago I met Frank Salsbury who wrote "UFOs of Northern Utah"
(or something along those lines.  It was posted by Don Allen in his list of
required readings).  He believes that UFOs are some kind of legitimate unknown
phenomenon and has done a good deal of serious investigation.  He told me
about an incident in which a number of people saw a bright object hanging over
the western horizon.  They all agreed that it couldn't have been a celestial
object because it was not a point of light, but had visible dimensions.  One
said that it was shaped like a fish. Another said that it had a bundle of
machinery dangling from a cable.  All agreed that it had flashing lights and
did not stand in one place.  Professor Salsbury went out to look for it with
one of the witnesses on the following night.  And guess what? It turned out to
be Venus, just a bright point of light near the horizon.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!cebarton
From: [e-mail] (Casey Barton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 02:09:08 GMT
References: <1991Nov17.222534.21210@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> in.de (Hakan Kayal) writes:
>Some month's ago I had read somewhere (I think it was "Der Spiegel" a
>serios political magazine in Germany) about a large meteorid which has
>missed to hit Earth whith a difference of about five minutes in it's
>trajectory. It was claimed that after that, it was recommened by some
>physicians to establish an improved observing system for meteorids encountering
>Earth's trajectoy.
>
>I think it is important. There is indeath no guarantee for a case of collision.
>It MIGHT be usefull to now of something like that some months ago.

       Why would this be useful?

       "Uh-Oh...A meteor's going to hit! Everybody off!"
--
      Casey Barton (Mr.)   [e-mail]   [phone]
    "Space," it says, "is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly
hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the
road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. Listen..." - The Guide.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!rutgers!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+
From: [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,alt.angst
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 02:23:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 6
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3695 alt.alien.visitors:3185 alt.angst:2561
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

Excerpts from alt.angst (USENET): 18-Nov-91 Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY
EARTH Steven A. [e-mail] (57)

> enough about the fictional asteroid please.   thank you.

How are you so sure that it is fictional?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Nov 91 15:00:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17794 alt.alien.visitors:3186

[e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
> I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in
> office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody
> provide any references?

I always thought it would be cool to get elected President of the USofA
and then call a big cabinet meeting and say "Okay everybody, no BS,
I wanna know what the real deal is with UFO's" and they *have* to tell
you 'cause you're the Prez :-)

Craig

--                                Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--         THEY LIVE                    Internet: [e-mail] --
--         WE SLEEP                   Austin: [e-mail] --
--                                                  VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!dmcanzi
From: [e-mail] (David Canzi)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 03:32:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Effete Corps of Impudent Snobs
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17795 alt.paranormal:3696 alt.alien.visitors:3187 talk.religion.newage:7728

I received (via E-mail) a copy of this letter too.  The forwarding
headers attached were several times the length of the letter itself.
The list of people who forwarded the letter consisted mostly of people
at universities (including Harvard, MIT) and a minority from high-tech
companies (including BNR).

In paragraph 1, the chain letter says:
>The original came from New England.

In paragraph 4,
>The chain comes from Venezuela ...

How does the letter come to have a description of what happened to
those who received it and either chose to pass it along, or not to
pass it along?

The letter describes the good luck people have received as a result of
passing along to letter, making it clear that the unit of measurement
for good luck is the dollar, and then informs us that the chain was
originated by St. Anthony DeGread.
                            -----

It looks to me like the letter originated as a practical joke.

--
David Canzi
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!ucsd!nmt.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (David Fritchman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Communications prize
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 01:54:10 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Petroleum Recovery Research Center, NMIMT
Lines: 7


In Margaret Cheney's book _Tesla: Man Out of Time_, she quotes Tesla as
saying "I am expecting to put before the Institute of France an accurate
description of the devices with data and calculations and claim the Pierre
Guzman Prize of 100,000 francs for means of communication with other worlds,
feeling perfectly sure that it will be awarded to me."
Any info on it?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 07:43:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17798 alt.paranormal:3697 alt.alien.visitors:3189


    "It" is a chain letter. It is also a very OLD chain letter. I
have recieved the IDENTICAL letter four times in the past five years.

    And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over
the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to
whoever is in charge...

                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!chalmers.se!dtek.chalmers.se!d9bertil
From: [e-mail] (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 07:52:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg, Sweden
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17799 alt.paranormal:3698 alt.alien.visitors:3190 talk.religion.newage:7731

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Arash Kamangeer) writes:
>Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?

  Yeah, and it's prohibited on the USENET.

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!glasgow!degnans
From: [e-mail] (Santa Claus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: X the bodydigger comes of age
Summary: get him!
Keywords: old birthday cake cheese
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 13:14:48 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.
Lines: 29

I've got through at last!

Now to warn you -



X THE BODYDIGGER REACHES FULL MATURITY THIS COMING SATURDAY!

You have had warning.

To save the planet from his new powers you must do the following:

Sometime between now and Friday morning mail:

[e-mail]

with the following message:


'Happy birthday, chunky'


It isn't the ultimate solution, but it will postpone the inevitable for a while.





Santa.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gulfbreeze files - Introduction
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 09:43:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 75

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>... Intro to posting...
>
>Don - You've got your own damn newsgroup for this stuff now; do you
>*still* need to crosspost to alt.conspiracy?  It would have been quite
>suffient to have posted only the into article, with a pointer to
>alt.alien.visitors for people who wanted to read more.
>
>Regards
>Graham

I cross-post to:

alt.alien.visitors
alt.conspiracy
sci.skeptic

The first group is obvious

The second group is because contrary to your limited mindset of reality,
UFO's are a CONSPIRACY topic of discussion.

 There are many allegations involving our wonderful military-industrial
complex,MJ-12 with coverup activities involving so-called pacts
with aliens at Roswell,Area 51,Dulce,etc.

These are questions that would suggest conspiracy of the highest sorts
with the "secret Govt" and ET's..

This topic _properly_ deserves to be cross-posted to this newsgroup
and will continue to be so.

How can one ask questions about the Illuminati, Bo Gritz story,BCCI
S&L loan failure, AIDS coverup and not see that these things may be
related, even in the very TOP part of "who is the secret govt".

Answer the question about "who is in control", "who are the members
of the Illuminati" and you have a connection to who MJ-12 is and
what their function might be.

I suggest that if you do not wish to have your sensibilities offended
that you either kill file the articles or do some serious reading.


One wonders what you will do when the economy is finally dashed
to the ground by the secret govt (it's almost there) and your
dollar is rendered worthless and the Tri-Lats come out with
a "rescue" plan of a global credit system. You will be the first
to get marked. Star wars? SDI...you fell for it..it's a LIE.

The Beast in Brussels knows all about you. Can you say 0110 0110 0110?

This is your wakeup call pal...hear it well..many won't. When the
paper currency falls is the emminent return of Nemesis.

Then where will you run to? GAIA?

I may be pulling your leg here...but then again I may not...UFOlogists
aren't into conspiracy theories,right?

Don


kkkdddd





--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!yale.edu!cmcl2!panix!gcf
From: [e-mail] (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 11:38:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: mydog in exile
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17807 alt.paranormal:3700 alt.alien.visitors:3193 talk.religion.newage:7733

You can accomplish the dictate of this letter by making
twenty copies on a Xerox machine, and placing them under
a rock near the monkey house at the zoo.

However, because you also made thousands of copies of the
letter by posting it on Usenet, you will receive billions
and billions of dollars and be buried under a mountain of
cash so large it will probably kill you.  Too bad.
--
* Gordon Fitch | [e-mail] | uunet!cmcl2.nyu.edu!panix!mydog!gcf *
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!glasgow!degnans
From: [e-mail] (Santa Claus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ammendum to X the bodydigger
Summary: wrong date
Keywords: sorry 30th
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 15:38:33 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.
Lines: 10

Due to an unprovoked time shift, X will now come of age on November 30th.

Please postpone mail until that period.


Thanking you in advance,



Santa.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!blaze.cs.jhu.edu!wilson
From: [e-mail] (Dwight Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 15:58:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University CS Department
Lines: 27
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17808 alt.alien.visitors:3195

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Larry Gritz) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
>>Most engineers have enough knowledge of the physical sciences to be
>>called "trained observers", and I don't believe that one engineer
>>could be fooled into believing that Venus is a UFO under any circumstances
>>except that they are drunk or drugged or insane or legally blind.
>
>Um, I beg to differ.  I have noticed that surprisingly few people (including
>engineers and other assorted techies) are experienced at observing
>astronomical phenomena.  I think it quite possible that J.C. could simply
>not realize how very bright Venus can appear, and therefore assumed that
>it was not an astronomical object.  Also, I don't know what the geographic
>or atmospheric details were for the sighting, but it also wouldn't surprise
>me if J.C. underestimated the amount of movement, flickering, and color
>change that turbulent atmosphere can cause on objects close to the
>horizon.
>

I'd be interested in knowing what Carter's reaction to the explanation
was.  Did he readily accept that what he saw was Venus, or did he
say that that couldn't be the correct explanation?  Of course
the correctness of the explanation isn't affected by whether
or not he believes it, but it would be very amusing (and not too
unlikely) if he (the first hand observer) is satisfied with the
explanation and we're still fighting over it.

-Dwight
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!blaze.cs.jhu.edu!wilson
From: [e-mail] (Dwight Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 16:10:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University CS Department
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17811 alt.paranormal:3701 alt.alien.visitors:3196

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>
>    "It" is a chain letter. It is also a very OLD chain letter. I
>have recieved the IDENTICAL letter four times in the past five years.
>
>    And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over
>the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to
>whoever is in charge...
>

I'm skeptical about this last claim (:-)).  I thought chain letters
were only illegal through US Snail if they solicited money.

Anyone know for sure?

-Dwight
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!ultb!ritvax.isc.rit.edu!EBP4907
From: [e-mail] (Erica Palmer)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 17:37:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Lines: 9
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17818 alt.paranormal:3703 alt.alien.visitors:3197 talk.religion.newage:7740
Nntp-Posting-Host: vaxe.isc.rit.edu

The last time I received a chain letter was last year; I got 2 copies,
and threw both of them out.  A week later I was offered a full tuition
scholarship.  So much for bad luck. :)

                                              _______________________________
Erica B. Palmer                              | "My GPA has fallen and it     |
Rochester Institute of Technology (student)  |  can't get up!                |
[e-mail]                   |                               |
                                             |_______________________________|
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cwatters
From: [e-mail] (Coyt D Watters)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Summary: December 5
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 18:36:25 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu


While I was watching the morning news, our local NBC affiliate's (WCMH)
weatherman made an announcement about a near miss asteroid or cometary fragment
(he wan't sure which) which was supposed to occur around December 5th.
It is supposed to pass within 250k miles (close).

Anyone out there have more info on this?

--
..and the silicon heart warmed to the sight/ of a billion candles burning/
now I'm not saying that the battle is won/but on Saturday night all the kids
in the sun/ embrace the technology sown from the hands of the warlords...
"The Tide Is Turning" - Roger Waters - _The Wall Live in Berlin 1990_
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!ptsys1!beb
From: [e-mail] (Bruce E. Buck)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Nov 91 14:29:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Performance Technologies, Incorporated
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>This is probably the most frightening thing you will ever read...I am
>afraid that it may cause considerable consternation and confusion or who
>knows what, maybe just some good laughs around the world...I am the
>person who jumped onto the live set of KNBC in Los Angeles in 1987 and
>held a toy gun to the head of David Horowitz, the consumer advocate...I
>know it made the national and even the International news...I forced him
>to read a statement about how the CIA and Aliens had cloned my family and
>friends, among various other things...It was dismissed as the possible
>rantings of a loonie, by some...

etc.

Sounds to me like your basic paranoid schizophrenic.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 20:13:07 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 32


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Alan Filipski) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>#>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
>#>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>#>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>#
>#Well, a friend of mine says it isn't supposed to destroy the Earth at all.
>#It's supposed to orbit the Earth.  It's an orbiting Master Space Station
>#and it's purpose is to facilitate first contact with us and initiate trade
>#agreements.
>#
># Mary Stanley
>
>Uh-oh, I'm beginning to suspect that this thread is not a joke.
>
>
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA )
> ( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al         [phone] )
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Of course it's a joke, ... silly :-)


---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 20:13:19 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3201 alt.paranormal:3704


In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]> writes...
>
>What kind of trade agreements.  What could we have that they would want
>or need.  Or are they considering franchising McDonalds into space?
>
>I'll have a Moon-Mac, a large order of laser-fries, and a Venusian shake
>to go.  And make it quick...I was supposed to be in the Orion sector a
>half an hour ago.

They want access to Grateful Dead concerts and copies of bootleg tapes
to take back to Orion.

mary :-)
---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!morrow.stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Neon.Stanford.EDU!amorgan
From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 20:18:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University, Ca , USA
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17824 alt.paranormal:3706 alt.alien.visitors:3202 talk.religion.newage:7745

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>The last time I received a chain letter was last year; I got 2 copies,
>and threw both of them out.  A week later I was offered a full tuition
>scholarship.  So much for bad luck. :)
>

But if you *had* sent it on you would have won the lottery and discovered
a cure for cancer and won a Nobel Peace Prize.  I hope you have learned your
lesson

>Erica B. Palmer                              | "My GPA has fallen and it     |
>Rochester Institute of Technology (student)  |  can't get up!                |
>[e-mail]                   |                               |

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions above are not mine.  I stole them all from the person sitting next
to me.  If you don't like them, I can get you his address and you can kill him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan "Long live the Goon Show" Morgan | "You rotton swine, you!" - Bluebottle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Watch out!  This gun is loaded and so am I." - Major Denis Bloodnok

    EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!  EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct
From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Summary: details at 11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 20:24:58 GMT
References: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc.
Lines: 36

[e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
>(Steve Timpson) writes:
>>Not true. The odds of being killed by an asteroid during your lifetime
>>is about one in 10,000 according to some astronomers who have been
>>studying asteroid strikes on earth.
>>
>>The good news is that 1 in 10000 is pretty small odds when spread over
>>a lifetime.

Well, yeah, looking at the chance for a given instance, the odds are
really small; but on the other hand, all you need is a lifetime....
Duck and cover!

> [... math to show that ...]
>we would expect there would be up to 500,000 asteroid-related deaths!

Wow.  You(meaning everybody reading this) should call everybody you
love and tell them so, because one (or more) of the 500,000 to get
nuked (sorry for the callousness) may be those you love.  "Hello, Mom?
I love you.  I'm calling to tell you that because you might be one of
half a million to get killed by an Earthbound asteroid.  Tell Dad hi."

>BTW - sometime back on alt.alien.visitors there was a thread about a person
>who was actually struck by a meteorite, anybody remember the details?

Well, it probably crushed their skull, but if it hit their head
just right, it mightv'e completely knocked it off.  If it hit a limb,
it might have just caused a large flesh wound.  Any asteroid victims
alive out there, wanting to tell us their story?

-Brent
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent P. Burton, N5VMG                                    Computer Sci/Physics
[e-mail]                                        Texas A&M University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john
From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <1991Nov19.142857.21557@anasaz>
Date: 19 Nov 91 14:28:57 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA
Lines: 51
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17827 alt.alien.visitors:3204

Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
][e-mail] (Laurence Doering):
]>
]> As a graduate student in computer science (therefore an engineer)
]
][stuff about how easy it is for a trained person to mistake a planet
]for something else]
]
]>
]> "trained engineer."
]
]You are probably correct about venus and airplanes and such but I have
]one question:
]
]How does being a graduate student in _computer_science_ make you an
]engineer???
]
]Computer scicence is not an engineering field.  It's much closer to
]math than engineering.  I've taken 50 or 60 credits of undergraduate
]and graduate computer science courses at three different universities
]and even the ones called "Software Engineering" had nothing to do with
]engineering.

I strongly beg to differ with you. One who practices computer science
is practicing engineering. I have done electrical engineering, and
I have done software engineering. They are very similar disciplines:
  -they are based on mathematical theory, but that theory is usually
   somewhat incomplete in its practical predictive powers
  -they involve using that theory, plus experience, to create things
   which are useful to people
  -they are professions, and have similar pay
  -they involve creating and meeting specifications

]Hell, being a graduate student in an engineering field doesn't even
]make you an engineer.  Engineering is a professional not an academic
]field.  Check the job titles of the people in the university
]engineering departments, you won't find any engineers, just TAs,
]instructors, and professors.

There is some truth to this, depending on what these people do OTHER
than teaching. Some research also involves a lot of engineering.

This has NOTHING to do with alt.alien.visitors or sci.skeptic.

--
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john [e-mail] anasaz![e-mail]
 - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - -
 - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver
From: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 23:08:39 GMT
References: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Lose)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University
Lines: 24

>Well, it probably crushed their skull, but if it hit their head
>just right, it mightv'e completely knocked it off.  If it hit a limb,
>it might have just caused a large flesh wound.  Any asteroid victims
>alive out there, wanting to tell us their story?
>
>-Brent
>

ho ho.

anyway, here is the gist of two people struck by meteorites in
the 20th century.

In one, one meterite came through the roof, through the kitchen table,
and struck on person in the leg.  Apparently the injury was not severe
at all.

In another case, a meteorite came through the roof, and landed on a
person in bed.  Apparently there was no real injury, at most a bruise.

If I have the accuracy of these incidents wrong, let me know.  (the
alt.alien.visitors.flame.group rubs their hands together gleefully...)

Tracy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver
From: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 23:19:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Lose)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University
Lines: 49
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17828 talk.religion.newage:7747 alt.atheism:18156 alt.alien.visitors:3206

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric
Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>> Religion deals with the truths of worlds OTHER than the physical
>>one.
>
>worlds OTHER than the physical one? you mean fantasy worlds. Yes
religeon
>is about escaping from reality to find the inner truths of ones
fantasies.
>
How can you say definitively that there are no real universes outside
this
physical one?  There's no way to confirm (or deny) the existence of such
worlds
because, by definition, they would be outside this universe, and
therefore
unreachable and untestable.  (Except of course for the folks who claim
to have
seen/travelled to these places, but that's a different topic.)

>No but you forget religeon keeps poking its nose into the real world. It
>talks of Creation,Noas Ark, Heaven Hell. These are all things purlorted to
>really exist.

Heaven and Hell definitely fall into the realm of "outside this universe."
"Creation" implies "before Creation", which also falls outside this universe.
Noah's Ark is the only thing you mentioned that might be testable.

>The bible is taken as TRUTH but the bible has myths whose
>setting is the real physical world. Obviously this will clash with science.

True.  I think the Bible contains much more metaphor than fact; especially the
Old Testament.
>
>ALEX BUNKER


As far as the Bible is concerned, there is plenty of stuff in there that can
be interpreted as being based on some sort of physical phenomenon.  Re, for
example, Von Daniken and the old chestnut _Chariots of the Gods_.  That book
is pretty thin in most places but does make some good points.

One more thing:  In an anthro class I took it was pointed out that the
Flood was probably based on a devastating flood in "The Cradle of Civilization"
-- the valley between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.  They know for a fact
that a flood there wiped out probably hundred of thousands of people.  Perfect
legend builder.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Please stop crossposting into t.r.na. and note to John Gibbons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 23:58:55 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 11

For all of you who continue to cross post a host of things into
trna...will you kindly please stop it?  People in that newsgroup
are getting tired of the cross posting that has gone on to such
a large extent.

John Gibbons:  If you are out there, please know that all my
email TO YOU keeps bouncing back.  If there is something you
wish to discuss, please email me your phone number and/or address
and I will try to make contact with you that way.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!milton!raven.alaska.edu!acad3.alaska.edu!fsrsg
From: [e-mail] (Mycroft Holmes IV)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 01:57:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Alaska - Fairbanks
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17831 alt.paranormal:3707 alt.alien.visitors:3208 talk.religion.newage:7751
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-a3
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (R. Kym Horsell) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Arash Kamangeer) writes:
>>From: Truyen C. Lam <cmsclam>
>>Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 14:11:05 -0500
>>To: arvand
>>
>>>From [e-mail] Fri Nov 15 14:03:14 1991
>>Received: from umdd.umd.edu by csc-srv.wam.umd.edu
>>
>>>I received this letter on e-mail.  I donot know how and why I was the
>>>selected lucky one.  But if any body knows anything about these things
>>>to explain to me what is the purpose and meaning of such letters and what
>>>the sender(s) are trying to accomplish, I would appreciated the info.
>[some chain letter or other deleted]

Well, it's as good as outlawed at the computer system up here...
so watch out.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!dkuug!uts!euromath.dk!reus
From: [e-mail] (Jens Peter Reus Christensen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 12:04:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Copenhagen, Dept. of Math.
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17832 alt.paranormal:3708 alt.alien.visitors:3209 talk.religion.newage:7752
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 18 Nov 91 15:21:59 GMT


   Remember, send no money.  Do not ignore this letter!

               St. Jude
*****************************************
This is idol worship. Anybody who needs more blessing then God is
willing to give can take it.
--

|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Associate professor, Dr. phil |                                         |
|  Jens Peter Reus Christensen   |                                         |
|  Department of mathematics     | e-mail:          [e-mail]       |
|  University of Copenhagen      |                  [e-mail]|
|  Universitetsparken 5          | phone:           [phone] ext. 458 |
|  DK-2100 Copenhagen            | fax:                      [phone] |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!apple!news.bbn.com!news.bbn.com!wbe
From: [e-mail] (Winston Edmond)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Sigh.. there really is an asteroid or something
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 20:54:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman, Inc., Cambridge, MA
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3210 alt.paranormal:3709
NNTP-Posting-Host: crystal.bbn.com
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 15 Nov 91 22:41:12 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Filipski) writes:
   Uh-oh, I'm beginning to suspect that this thread is not a joke.

Even worse.  On Paul Harvey news today just after noon, he announced that
astronomers have discovered a small object about 30' long that will come
close to Earth.  It's trajectory is not yet known accurately, but it will
apparently pass about 250,000 miles from Earth on December 5, 1991.  It's
also not yet known whether this is an asteroid, or a piece of space program
debris (Voyager?  I forget which program he said).  Presumably we'll find out
more as it approaches.
 -WBE
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!apple!motcsd!udc!mcdphx!hrc!gtx!al
From: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,misc.legal,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 22:11:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Organization: GTX Corporation, Phoenix
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17833 alt.paranormal:3710 alt.alien.visitors:3211 misc.legal:22490 alt.folklore.urban:28398

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>
>    And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over
>the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to
>whoever is in charge...

Despite the fact that people repeatedly assert this with great
certainty, it is incorrect (at least as far as US mail goes). I just
double-checked with the USPS and they told me the following: It is not
illegal to send out copies of the "good luck" or "prayer" type of chain
letter under discussion.  The type of chain letter that is illegal is
the kind that requests you send money, or otherwise involves a swindle
or de facto lottery.  Call your local postal inspector if you don't
believe me.  It is not a crime, nor should it be, to waste your own
stamps.  Stupidity is not illegal (yet).


  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA )
 ( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al         [phone] )
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 17:46:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 7
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17836 alt.paranormal:3713 alt.alien.visitors:3212 talk.religion.newage:7755

Don't EVER circulate chain letters on the net!  I'm sick and tired of it!

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!leping
From: [e-mail] (Leping N Zha)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Chinese - Russian Scientists Join to Prove the Body "Meridian Channels"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 05:14:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 82
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3213 alt.conspiracy:8764 sci.skeptic:17841


                         News from P.R.China :
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Chinese and Soviet Scientists Cooperate to Confirm the Existence of the
                    "Jinluo" Line ( Meridian Channels )
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Reflexology (manipulating areas on the feet to affect the rest of the
 body) was listed as "near bizarre" in a recent Times cover article on the
 alternative therapies (Claudia Wallis, "Why New Age Medicine is Catching On",
 November 4, 1991) compared with the "more credible" treatments like
 acupuncture, while they are both based on the same ancient Chinese theory of
 "Jinluo" system, the "meridian lines network" which links virtually all human
 (and animals as well reportedly) parts and passes the "qi" through them to
 maintain one's health and vitality. These channels are also strongly believed
 by most Chinese psi (EFHB in their term) researchers and qigong masters as
 the pathways of the subtle energies which carries psi informations. They even
 published papers measuring (mainly subjectively) the ESP message's propagating
 speed along the lines among the gifted EFHB children as typically several
 centimeters per second, and reported once the "qi feelings (usually tingling
 and bloating)" reach their forehead, the desired information appears as a
 picture on a special "TV screen" there. There are as many patients receiving
 the Jinlou-based traditional Chinese madicine treatment today in China as
 those who using Western medicien (many use both simultaneously since it is not
 unusual for a Western styled doctor, "Xi-Yi", also prescripts "Zhong-Yi"
 drugs and treatments along with Aspirin pills, etc.), since they took the
 Jinlou system as an established fact from their birth.

      No anatomic evidence of these channels was found so far, but studies
 on the subject is still carried in many state-funded Chinese traditional
 medicine centers, research institutes and universities. Professor Zhu Zong-
 xiang, who leads a group in the Institute of Biophysics of the Chinese
 Academy of Science (Academia Sinica) claimed that from 17 year's careful
 studies in his lab, they had proven there are really 14 Jinluo lines in the
 human body by three independent biophysical methods (Zhu Zongxiang, Xu Rui-
 min, et al., "A Study on the Low Impedance characteristics of the Meridian
 Lines before and after amputation", Ziran Zazhi[Nature Journal], 9, 281-287;
 Zhu Zongxiang, "The Advances and Prospect in Physiological and Biophysical
 Approaches to the Acupuncture Meridian System", Ziran Zazhi, 9, 327-332;
 additional references pending), including acoustic conduction speed and
 electrical conducting impedance. A detailed experimental channel location
 map had been produced by 1989. These claims have brought wide attentions
 among Chinese scientists and news media, partially because the claim is
 contradictory to a general believe that the system builds on the dynamic
 processes in the living body and therefore it will not be detectable in
 vitro.

    According to a recent news item from the official Xinhua News Agency
 (September 26, Beijing, Zhu Baihua reporting), Chinese and Soviet scientists
 are cooperating to further reveal the reality of meridian channels by using
 modern Biophysical means, and major progress has been made already.

    From the source, the research center headed by Professor Zhu signed a
 collaborate agreement with the Institute of Cytological Biophysics, Soviet
 Academy of Science, to lunch a series of morphological and biochemical
 experiments on Jinluo. The Soviet scientists would investigate the special
 structure of the channels by optical and electron microscopes, as well as
 to measure the lines objectively by biochemical (enzymic) methods.

    The news reports that the scientists from the both sides had made
 exchanges frequently since May, 1990. A delegation led by Professor Zhu
 visited the Soviet site in the past June, and Dr. Klamov (name translated
 from Chinese), director of the Cytological Biophysics Institute's
 radiology department, is working in the Professor Zhu's lab in Beijing.
 The report says the Russian researchers have successfully detected acupoints
 which on the whole agree with the Jinluo map made by Zhu's group.

    Also from other Xinhua reports, Dr. Qian Xuesen, the prominent
 Chinese rocketeer, Dr. Robert Jahn's predecessor of the Cal Tech Jet Propul-
 sion Laboratory's Goddard Professorship who provided the crucial supports to
 the China's psi studies from the very beginning, was granted by the party a
 one-of-the-kind "Outstanding Scientist Award" which was described as the
 highest honor ever to a scientist in China. The Chinese government had also
 started a "learn from Dr. Qian" movement throughout the nation's scientific
 and technological units. In the grant awarding ceremony attended by the
 party's top leaders, Dr. Qian mentioned that he will aim to further advance
 the "Somatic Science" research in China, among many other subjects like
 the Biological Sciences and System Science.

                                                       ( November 16, 1991 )


Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!ldoering
From: [e-mail] (Laurence Doering)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Sigh.. there really is an asteroid or something
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 08:58:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: Larry Doering
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3214 alt.paranormal:3714

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Winston Edmond) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Filipski) writes:
>   Uh-oh, I'm beginning to suspect that this thread is not a joke.
>
>Even worse.  On Paul Harvey news today just after noon, he announced that
>astronomers have discovered a small object about 30' long that will come
>close to Earth.  It's trajectory is not yet known accurately, but it will
>apparently pass about 250,000 miles from Earth on December 5, 1991.  It's
>also not yet known whether this is an asteroid, or a piece of space program
>debris (Voyager?  I forget which program he said).  Presumably we'll find out
>more as it approaches.

I heard on NPR yesterday morning that it might be a Saturn V third stage
from one of the Apollo missions.  If so, it's probably closer to 100 feet
long, but there's nothing to be worried about (unless you worry about the Moon
falling on you).  250,000 miles is a fair distance away, and is about the
average diameter of the Moon's orbit.  Even if it did hit the Earth, it
probably wouldn't have much effect.  Remember, a modified Saturn V third stage
_did_ hit the earth back in 1978 when Skylab reentered.  Of course, Skylab
was only moving at about 18,000 mph (typical velocity for low Earth orbit)
when it reentered, and an object in a solar orbit would enter the Earth's
atmosphere at about 25,000 mph.  If you can find one of those anti-Skylab
helmets some fool was selling in the summer of 1978, maybe you should
dust it off...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucivax!orion.oac.uci.edu!unogate!mvb.saic.com!ncr-sd!asihub.sd.cadence.com!chuck
From: [e-mail] (Charles Surface)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 18:02:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <8d_3cYW00aw4E=[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3715 alt.alien.visitors:3215 talk.religion.newage:7758 sci.skeptic:17849

In article <8d_3cYW00aw4E=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro) writes:
>
>    Sending chain letters on the Internet (and many other networks) is an
>extremely serious violation of policies and can result in termination of
>network priviledges, action by the system administators of your
>site/network connection including termination of your account/access, or
>disciplinary action if you are at a university, up to and including
>explusion, and possible legal prosecution. It also wastes limited
>network resources and annoys countless people, numbering up to the
>thousands, so *DON'T DO IT!*

Raoul Ortega, of Venezuala, sent a chain letter over e-mail
and contracted an inflamed colon within two hours. Loretta
Donnely, of Newhurst, New Jersey, didn't send any, and
received $1,200,333 three days later.


--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Surface <[e-mail]>         {uunet|ncr-sd}!asihub!chuck
Cadence Design Systems, San Diego Centre
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!apollo!apollo.hp.com!heff
From: [e-mail] (Jeffery Oesterle)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Sigh.. there really is an asteroid or something
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 15:37:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET posting account)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 27
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3216 alt.paranormal:3716
Nntp-Posting-Host: soul_biter.ch.apollo.hp.com


> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Winston Edmond) writes:
> >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Filipski) writes:
> >   Uh-oh, I'm beginning to suspect that this thread is not a joke.
> >
> >Even worse.  On Paul Harvey news today just after noon, he announced that
> >astronomers have discovered a small object about 30' long that will come
> >close to Earth.  It's trajectory is not yet known accurately, but it will
> >apparently pass about 250,000 miles from Earth on December 5, 1991.  It's
> >also not yet known whether this is an asteroid, or a piece of space program
> >debris (Voyager?  I forget which program he said).  Presumably we'll find out
> >more as it approaches.
>
> I heard on NPR yesterday morning that it might be a Saturn V third stage
> ..
> average diameter of the Moon's orbit.  Even if it did hit the Earth, it
> probably wouldn't have much effect.  Remember, a modified Saturn V third stage
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yep.  Today's Globe talked about it.  It's apparently a room-sized asteroid,
and it's unclear how much detail they'll be able to get.  Objects that small
that don't emit large amounts of energy are just _not_ easy to find, or observe.

Also, they mentioned that objects of this size burn up enterring our atmosphere.


jeff.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Sigh.. there really is an asteroid or something
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 16:07:42 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3217 alt.paranormal:3717


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Winston Edmond) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Filipski) writes:
>Even worse.  On Paul Harvey news today just after noon, he announced that
>astronomers have discovered a small object about 30' long that will come
>close to Earth.  It's trajectory is not yet known accurately, but it will
>apparently pass about 250,000 miles from Earth on December 5, 1991.  It's
>also not yet known whether this is an asteroid, or a piece of space program
>debris (Voyager?  I forget which program he said).  Presumably we'll find out
>more as it approaches.
> -WBE

Maybe it's a space probe.... like Voyager... some *other* species's space
probe, I hope.
---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!rtfm.mlb.fl.us!joshua
From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 11:41:25 GMT
References: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Innocent Bystander, Palm Bay, FL
Lines: 38

[e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes:
|>(someone else):

|>>Well, it probably crushed their skull, but if it hit their head
|>>just right, it mightv'e completely knocked it off.  If it hit a limb,
|>>it might have just caused a large flesh wound.  Any asteroid victims
|>>alive out there, wanting to tell us their story?

|>anyway, here is the gist of two people struck by meteorites in
|>the 20th century.

|>In one, one meterite came through the roof, through the kitchen table,
|>and struck on person in the leg.  Apparently the injury was not severe
|>at all.

|>In another case, a meteorite came through the roof, and landed on a
|>person in bed.  Apparently there was no real injury, at most a bruise.

These are meteorites.

Asteroids are large chunks of rock, metal or carbon compunds.

They range in size from very small to hundreds of miles in diameter.

To get a rough idea of what a (large) asteroid striking the earth would
do, have a look at the moon through a telescope, or photograph of the
moon. You will notice a star shaped pattern centered around a large crater.
This is where a large chunk of something-or-other struck the moon and
came close to shattering it.

The destruction caused by an asteroid striking the earth (I suppose this
should be asterite, by analogy with meteoroid and meteorite) would vary
depending on how large it was, how fast it was moving and whether it struck
on land or water. If an appreciably sized one struck on land, it would be
bad. If it struck in water it would be worse (I leave it as an exercise to
the reader as to why).

josh
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!mips!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uxc.cso.uiuc.edu!ken
From: [e-mail] (Ken Primer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 18:38:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3219 alt.paranormal:3720 alt.angst:2569

[e-mail] (Johnny Zweig) writes:

oi

>>..
>>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
Oh No! I've got something important planned for July 14. Can't this wait?
=:-0

--
Ken Primer
Email to: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!jls19
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Twelth Planet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 17:40:49 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 6

Has anyone read Zecharia Sitchin's "The Twelth Planet"??  It deals with the
translations of ancient Sumerian text.  There is extraterrestrial seeding and
verification of Biblical stories, such as Adam and Eve and the Great Flood
with some interesting twists.

Please post all comments.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU!skywalker
From: [e-mail] (Timothy B. Reynolds)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 19:55:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: X-Ray Crystallography / Howard Hughes Medical Institute
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3221 alt.paranormal:3721 alt.angst:2570
Nntp-Posting-Host: dino.qci.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu


A article in the Houston Chronicle today said a object is indeed comming
at the earth and will pass by on the 5 of Dec. They believe it might be
a piece of a appolo upper stage left over from one of the moon shots....

tim
--
I speak only for myself....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And we stand and watch the gods and idols fall, as the blameless ones go
 blindfold to the wall"                                  Robin Trower....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!emory!utkcs2!utkux1.utk.edu!kovarik
From: [e-mail] (SaintMeechTheChaste)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 19:54:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Tzentr
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3222 alt.paranormal:3722 alt.angst:2571

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ken Primer) writes:
>[e-mail] (Johnny Zweig) writes:
>
>oi
>
>>>..
>>>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>>>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
>Oh No! I've got something important planned for July 14. Can't this wait?
>=:-0
>

On the other hand, it will destroy the world's entire supply of SPAM.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct
From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Summary: yeah, it's a stupid chain letter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 20:05:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc.
Lines: 32
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17860 alt.paranormal:3723 alt.alien.visitors:3223 talk.religion.newage:7761

[e-mail] (Arash Kamangeer) writes:
>From: Truyen C. Lam <cmsclam>
>Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 14:11:05 -0500
>To: arvand
>>From [e-mail] Fri Nov 15 14:03:14 1991
>Received: from umdd.umd.edu by csc-srv.wam.umd.edu
>>I received this letter on e-mail.  I donot know how and why I was the
>>selected lucky one.  But if any body knows anything about these things
>>to explain to me what is the purpose and meaning of such letters and what
>>the sender(s) are trying to accomplish, I would appreciated the info.

[..old chain letter deleted...]

I've received that letter twice before; once in the mail and another time
via email.  That letter, in its electronic form, has probably been around
the world 900 times (it claims a whopping 9 times).

What's happened to me?  Well, the first time I got the letter by email
I quickly looked to see who was logged in at another university's
machines, and zapped a couple copies to unknown people.  Fun fun.  I got
some return mail, mainly saying "Don't forward chain letters.  Your system
administrator has been notified."  Nothing ever came out of it.  However,
please don't bother forwarding this letter to anyone - it's such a waste.
The normal paper copy I received was promptly thrown away and then soon
after the Berlin wall was toppled.  Coincidence?  I think not!

If you believe such utter bullshit, I pity you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent P. Burton, N5VMG                                    Computer Sci/Physics
[e-mail]                                        Texas A&M University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!mm
From: [e-mail] (Mike MacKenzie)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Summary: I always did hate Mondays.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 20:27:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Purdue University
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3224 alt.paranormal:3724 alt.angst:2572

> >>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
> >>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????

$ cal 7 1992
   July 1992
 S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
          1  2  3  4
 5  6  7  8  9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31

Yep, the world ends on a Monday.

Michael MacKenzie    (Purdue University Unix Group)
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!ingr!b11!case
From: [e-mail] (Bill Case)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 23:35:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Nov17.030509.25313@anasaz>
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Lines: 18

In article <1991Nov17.030509.25313@anasaz>, billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gisle Hannemyr) writes:
> ]>While in office, Jimmy Carter stated that he had seen an UFO (I believe
> ]>the event had happened before he become president).  It was nothing
> ]>spectacular, just a strange, strong light just above the horizon.
> ]>
> A few months later it swooped in and got the Republican nomination.  Not long
> after that, poof, no more Carter.  The nation was left muttering about 4 years
> of missing time ...


Don't forget the killer bunny he also closely encountered.  Certainly
sounded alien to any bunny I've met.  Could it be the invasion force?
Who'd of thought...
Hmmm, was Mel Blance their propaganda mastermind?
Thank god Jimmy saw the blood thirsty teeth behind the whiskers!
Silly Wabbit? I don't think so...Hopping is unearthly.  Frogs have the
look, too!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!netcomsv!noring
From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: CFD:  alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 01:06:12 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 66
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5183 alt.alien.visitors:3226 sci.physics:14782 sci.skeptic:17869


Hello,

I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss
alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views.  It will
be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully
in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories.  I believe that it
should be an alt.* group since it will obviously be on the fringe of science.
Maybe at a future time if there is enough interest a sci.physics.* group
can be created, but for now I think it best to stick to an alt.* group.


A proposed name is:  alt.physics   (what else?)


Let me cite one example as to the value of such a newsgroup.  For example,
if one has come to the conclusion that many UFO sightings are indeed caused
by extraterrestrial spacecraft (because of one's interpretation of the
available evidence), then this belief may require new theories of physics
to take into account the observed anomalous motion (not easily explained by
our current understanding of physics) and to account for how such a spacecraft
could navigate the distance from other star systems to ours in a reasonable
amount of time.  (I would not be surprised that many scientists reject the
extraterrestrial spacecraft explanation of UFO sightings precisely because
such an explanation does not fit into our current understanding of physics.)

A small list of other things that could be discussed include:

* What is gravity?  What about Sakharov's conjecture?  Is anti-gravity
  possible?
* How do Maxwell's original equations compare to some of the approximations
  that have been used (Heaviside approximation) and what are the ramifications
  to our understanding of the universe.
* Is it possible to derive energy from empty space? (There were a lot of papers
  submitted to this year's IECEC discussing this possibility, including some
  experimental evidence (which I admit is meager).  Some of these papers
  discussed alternative theories of physics).  Obviously truly fringe, but
  discussable in this newsgroup.
* Is it possible to travel from one point in space to another point in
  space faster than the speed of light (on Star Trek they do it all the
  time by warping space itself- it must therefore be possible to do! :^) ).
* Is time travel possible?
* Cold fusion theories.
etc.


Anyway, let me know what you feel about the creation of the newsgroup,
the proposed name of alt.physics, and what other subjects could be talked
about.  If nothing else, it should be very interesting:  the proponents
can have a forum to introduce their new theories, and the skeptics can have
a good laugh!

Jon Noring



--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 754 Catalina Drive  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!ames!agate!stanford.edu!hsdndev!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+
From: [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config
Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 03:14:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 3
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3227 sci.physics:14789 sci.skeptic:17876 alt.config:5184
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>


    There is even flaming in sci.physics, alt.physics will be much worse,
still I think you should do it, it would be interesting.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!rigel.tamu.edu!dbn7350
From: [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Summary: Well, it's not quite THAT big.... :}
Keywords: Apollo debris, asteroid, or alien space stuff? You decide... :}
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 02:47:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Texas A&M Univeristy, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 109
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Steven Anselmo Aiello) writes...

>enough about the fictional asteroid please.   thank you.

Fictional you say?

heh...heh...heh...

Take a look at the story in today's New York Times  (page 8A, national
edition, Wed. Nov 20.)

----------
            Mysterous Something Nears Earth
                William J. Broad


    It is not an alien spaceship.  Of that astronomers are sure.
But otherwise they have only questions about a mysterious object in space
that will show up virtually on Earth's doorstep, as scientists measure these
things, in a little more that two weeks.
    Astronomers say the object could be a new kind of asteroid or
perhaps an old piece of the manned space program finding its way back home,
possibly a lunar acsent module from two decades ago.  In either case,
nothing like it has been seen before.
    "We're very excited," said Dr. Tom Gehrels, a professor of lunar
and planetary science at the University of Arizona, who heads the team that
discovered the mystery visitor.  "If it's a natural object, we're excited
because it's a new type.  And no Apollo hardware has ever been observed
like this.  So it's very exciting for us one way or another."
    Dr. Paul W. Chodas, an orbital scientist at the Jet Propulsion
Laboratory in pasadena, Calif., called th object very intriguing.  He said
he had unsuccesfully tried to match it's orbit to the trajectories of known
space debris from the Apollo program.
    "Our best guess is that it's natural," Dr. Chodas said, adding that
his computations were crude and that it was too early to know anything for
sure.

            Discovered Two Weeks Ago

    The objectwas discovered on Nov. 6 with a 36-inch telescope atop
Kitt Peak in southern Arizona.  The telescope, which belongs to the
University of Arizona, is operated by Dr. Gehrels and a small team of
astronomers, Spacewatch, who search the sky for asteroids that might hit
the Earth.
    The enigmatic visitor will not present a threat to the Earth, with
its closest approach brining it to within about 290,000 miles on Dec. 5.
But in a scientific world that is used to dealing with distances of light-
years, that is a mere stone's throw.
    The object, estimated to be 6 feet to 36 feet in diameter, clearly
orbits the Sun.  It is now about 1.2 million miles from the Earth.  Even at
its closest, he object will be tens of thousands of miles beyond the orbit
of the Moon.
    Astronomers in Arizona are observing the object to see it its
brightness is changing, which would hint at its speed of rotation.  If
spinning relatively quickly, rotating in seconds or minutes, it would
probably be a relatively light objuce made by man.  But a heavy object like
an asteroid would spin more slowly, taking hours for a single revolution.
    Most asteroids, craggy remnants from the creation of the solar system
that revolves around the Sun, are in orbits between those of Mars and Jupiter.
But some follow a more eccentric course that takes them across the path of
the Earth.  These asteroids usually have eliptical orbits, cutting huge arcs
through the solar system.
    What is perplexing about the mystery visitor is that its orbit is
circular, or nearly so.  " The orbit is remarkably similar to that of the
Earth," Dr. Gehrels said.
    "It could take a couple of weeks before we know what it is, if ever,"
he said.  "It's very difficult stuff.  The object is very faint."
    Dr. Gehrels is trying to raise $1.8 million for a new 72-inch
telescope that would make such observations easier.  There are far bigger
telescopes in the world, but they are not dedicated to scanning the sky for
asteroids near the Earth.
    Astronomers from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, working with the
giant radio telescope near Arecibo, Puerto Rico, which can work like a radar,
hope to join the observational studies in the next few weeks.  Used as a
radar, the device would bounce signals off the object, and the reflected
signals would better disclose its composition.

            Case for Apollo Debris

James E. Oberg, a space historian, said dozens of large objects were put
into solar orbit from 1968 to 1972 as part of the Apollo program.  These
included third stages from the giant Saturn V rocket, huge protective
panels around the lunar landers, and in one case, a lunar ascent module
ment to carry astronauts back to the command ship.  The module was test
fired from an apolo spacecraft in orbit around the moon in preparaion for
the first manned landing.
    He said the current object might be the first of a wave of Apollo
debris that could come sweeping by the Earth in the next few years.  The
orbital period of the Earth and the Apollo debris going around the Sun
would be very similar, Mr. Odberg said.  "So it would take decades for
one to overtake the other."
    Dr. Gehrels ruled out the possibility that the visitor might
be an alien spaceship.
    "If you spent centuries coming here, you wouldn't fly by and go
away," he said.  "So that takes care of U.F.O.'s.  On the other hand,
that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep an open mind about these things."
----------

Misspellings are my typos.



dbn3.

------------------------------------
Internet: [e-mail]   |
Bitnet: dbn7350@tamvenus           |         insert your own dumb quote. . .
AT&Tnet:409-847-3580               |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!homer.cs.mcgill.ca!pisces
From: [e-mail] (L. M. P. McPherson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFOs in Belgium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 04:18:57 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Administrator)
Organization: McGill University
Lines: 24

On the TV show, Unsolved Mysteries (November 20), they had a long report
about UFO sightings in Belgium. The UFOs were triangular in shape with
three white lights and a red, pulsating light in the centre. The beams
from the lights lit up the ground. Some police followed the UFOs and
watched them for a long time as they hovered silently overhead. The
military reported that several radar stations picked one such object
up on radar screens, and its behaviour was unlike any man-made object.
It accelerated to twice the speed of sound (without a sonic boom), and
it descended from 10,000 feet to 500 feet in 5 seconds.

A similar object was seen in Montreal on the night of November 7, 1990.
(The event was reported in the newspaper "La Presse", Nov. 8, 1990, p. A3.)
This UFO had a circle of lights (up to 10) and rays of light coming out of
it. It moved very slowly across the sky above a large downtown shopping
mall/office complex, and was visible for at least three hours. I remember
reading a few days later of sightings in Europe, with UFOs having varying
numbers of lights. In the report about UFOs in Belgium, some witnesses
saw one "craft", which had three lights, "shrink" to a single white
light and move rapidly away. They also witnessed a kind of ball of red
light to descend from the pulsating red light at the centre of the craft.
What on earth could these craft be doing? Are they just saying -- "Hey,
look at us -- we're here"? To hover for so long with so many human
witnesses seems sort of exhibitionistic. Any (serious) ideas about the
purpose of such activity?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!vex!allenk
From: [e-mail] (Allen Knutson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config
Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <allenk.690701926@vex>
Date: 21 Nov 91 05:38:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
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I think the main use of alt.physics (though I do not like the name) will be
as a place to set followups, and because of this I think it is a great idea.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!seas.smu.edu!utacfd.uta.edu!trsvax!rwsys!sneaky!gordon
From: [e-mail] (Gordon Burditt)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,misc.legal,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Nov 91 23:57:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Gordon Burditt
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>>    And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over
>>the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to
>>whoever is in charge...

>Despite the fact that people repeatedly assert this with great
>certainty, it is incorrect (at least as far as US mail goes). I just
>double-checked with the USPS and they told me the following: It is not
>illegal to send out copies of the "good luck" or "prayer" type of chain
>letter under discussion.  The type of chain letter that is illegal is

All of the "good luck" chain letters I have seen appear to be
THREATS of bad luck if you don't send the letter out.  They usually
include several examples of someone having bad luck when they didn't
send out the letters, such as losing a job or having an auto accident.

The US postal regulations against chain letters are not the only ones
applicable here.  If a letter went so far as to threaten that I would
drop dead if I didn't send out some letters, I think I'd be able to
press charges and get a conviction.  I'm not sure about the latest
one sent by email.

                    Gordon L. Burditt
                    sneaky.lonestar.org!gordon
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!hartlemp
From: [e-mail] (Michael P. Hartley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 07:56:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (L. M. P. McPherson) writes:
>On the TV show, Unsolved Mysteries (November 20), they had a long report
>about UFO sightings in Belgium. The UFOs were triangular in shape with
>...
>military reported that several radar stations picked one such object
>up on radar screens, and its behaviour was unlike any man-made object.
>It accelerated to twice the speed of sound (without a sonic boom), and
>it descended from 10,000 feet to 500 feet in 5 seconds.

   You forgot to mention that the NATO base near the sightings scrambled
several F-16s, and the object on radar seemed to play with them.  As soon as the
aircraft got a radar lock on the object, it would zip out of range, then slow
down, and let the aircraft catch up.  Also, after dropping to 500 ft, it climbed
back up, and with the speed that the radar showed, I calculated that it had to
do about a 17G pull up at the bottom.  The radar recordings from the aircraft
were shown on the show.

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From: [e-mail] (Michael P. Hartley)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,misc.legal,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 07:47:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gordon Burditt) writes:
>>>    And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over
>>>the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to
>>>whoever is in charge...

   DON'T PASS ON CHAIN LETTERS!!!   (pass this message on.  If you don't,
something bad may happen to you)
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Articles by Ware, Duane Cook, Editor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 07:05:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3234 alt.conspiracy:8799 sci.skeptic:17882


>
> ED SHARES PAST YEAR'S EXPERIENCES ON UFO SIGHTING'S
> ANNIVERSARY
>..........a phenomena that jolted me to the reality of UFOs.  A
> phenomena that is being witnessed all over the world and here
> at home by dozens of our fellow residents.  This reality.....
> I do not try to convince or persuade.......

   Oh, really?...sounds like you are to me, Ed.


> I was asked to take a lie detector test.  Again the
> ridicule was hurled toward me and yet another lie detector test.


Why?  They are inadmissable and irelevant.

> There was a very serious attempt  to destroy
> my reputation by twisting spooky party games into ritual seances.


you play spooky party games?


> Having failed to discredit the photographic evidence, the out of
> town critics have mounted a slander campaign hoping to brand me.
> Thank you Gulf Breeze for ignoring these outrageous rumors.
>
> resulting examination of the tape on a PSE (Psychological Stress
> Evaluator) vindicated my word once more when the examiner
> said the result "does not show any reaction to cause this examiner
> to doubt his (Ed's) answers."
>

Doesn't sound like vindication to me. See my comments re lie detector.


> and several times I have
> been blackmailed in their quest for a scoop to expose my name.


Did you lay charges?



>      From Nov. 11 to May 1, 1988 (my last sighting), I have been
> stedfast to the truth as the storm of controversy, both positive
> and negative, continued to build in the media.  The most
> troublesome question of the controversy is "Why have I had so
> many sightings?"  I can not explain the "why" questions, the most
> disturbing one being, "Why Me?"
>

What about "Why did they stop?"




> life goes on--
>even life we may not understand

Have these sightings provided anything other than photos?
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Summary: ..any ideas about the purpose of such activity?
Keywords: UFO's seen i Belgium.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 11:27:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr News)
Organization: USE, Universitetet i Oslo
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Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.240.34.165

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (L. M. P.
McPherson) writes:
>On the TV show, Unsolved Mysteries (November 20), they had a long report
>about UFO sightings in Belgium. The UFOs were triangular in shape with
>three white lights and a red, pulsating light in the centre. The beams
>from the lights lit up the ground. Some police followed the UFOs and
>watched them for a long time as they hovered silently overhead. The
>military reported that several radar stations picked one such object
>up on radar screens, and its behaviour was unlike any man-made object.
>It accelerated to twice the speed of sound (without a sonic boom), and
>it descended from 10,000 feet to 500 feet in 5 seconds.
>
>A similar object was seen in Montreal on the night of November 7, 1990.
>(The event was reported in the newspaper "La Presse", Nov. 8, 1990, p. A3.)
>This UFO had a circle of lights (up to 10) and rays of light coming out of
>it. It moved very slowly across the sky above a large downtown shopping
>mall/office complex, and was visible for at least three hours. I remember
>reading a few days later of sightings in Europe, with UFOs having varying
>numbers of lights. In the report about UFOs in Belgium, some witnesses
>saw one "craft", which had three lights, "shrink" to a single white
>light and move rapidly away. They also witnessed a kind of ball of red
>light to descend from the pulsating red light at the centre of the craft.
>What on earth could these craft be doing? Are they just saying -- "Hey,
>look at us -- we're here"? To hover for so long with so many human
>witnesses seems sort of exhibitionistic. Any (serious) ideas about the
>purpose of such activity?
>
Could i t not be they're looking for a place to settle down, now that their
world is comming to an end due to pollution!? Check list; world is out!!!!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: X the bodydigger comes of age
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 03:58:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 8

Hmmmmmmmm.....X the bodydigger......

Is he any relation to  V the Nosepicker?

Just wondering.  :-)

George Newell
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!pwilson
From: [e-mail] (Pete Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config
Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 15:55:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 7
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3237 sci.physics:14807 sci.skeptic:17888 alt.config:5191

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro) writes:
>
>    There is even flaming in sci.physics, alt.physics will be much worse,
>still I think you should do it, it would be interesting.

Maybe it would get some of the flaming out of
sci.physcis and into the land of the weirdos, where it belongs :)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!utzoo!censor!geac!maccs!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 91 16:05:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA
Lines: 21
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in
>office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody
>provide any references?
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>\ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ [e-mail] \  /  \  /  \  /
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

In fact the event took place before he was president. He was at a party and
a whole bunch of them walked out into the backyard and saw a bright pulsating
light in the sky. They really put their collective feet in their mouths when
they reported this to the authorities. Know what they mistook for a flying
saucer?????

VENUS!!!!

BA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

ALEX BUNKER
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!copper!aspen.craycos.com!jrbd
From: [e-mail] (James Davies)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 17:13:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3239 alt.conspiracy:8805 sci.skeptic:17896

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.
>
>                     STRANGE LIGHT IN SKY DRAWS ATTENTION
>           by David Baker, THE GULF BREEZE SENTINEL, March 3, 1991.
>
>  On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile
>bridge. AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a
>bright red light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze.
>  The two men said the light would dim then come back bright red, stay that
>way for a while and then dim again, all the while moving slowly in their
>direction. They detected no sound from the object.
>  Before the object disappeared it blinked to green momentarily, changed to a
>brilliant white and slowly faded away. The sighting lasted about four minutes
>and there were nine additional witnesses.

This sounds like a description of a bright planet setting in the west.
Apparently there are a lot of people out there who don't know Venus when
they see it, and not a few reporters who are eager to grasp at straws...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!lanai!jd
From: [e-mail] (James Perry)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,misc.legal,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 17:21:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Eyring Corp.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gordon Burditt) writes:
>>>    And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over
>>>the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to
>>>whoever is in charge...
>
>>Despite the fact that people repeatedly assert this with great
>>certainty, it is incorrect (at least as far as US mail goes). I just
>>double-checked with the USPS and they told me the following: It is not
>>illegal to send out copies of the "good luck" or "prayer" type of chain
>>letter under discussion.  The type of chain letter that is illegal is
[stuff deleted]
>
>The US postal regulations against chain letters are not the only ones
>applicable here.  If a letter went so far as to threaten that I would
>drop dead if I didn't send out some letters, I think I'd be able to
>press charges and get a conviction.  I'm not sure about the latest
>one sent by email.

Regardless of legality, I have a very strong objection to any kind of
electronic chain letter.  The goal of any chain letter is unbounded propagation,
and this (as was demonstrated a few years ago by Mr. Morris) is a bad thing
on the internet and networks in general.  Much computing time is wasted by
countless copies of a useless and purposeless letter (IMHO).  A USPS chain
letter can be just thrown away (it's their stamp, not mine) but an electronic
chain letter uses my (any many other's) computing resources.  Granted, this
may not be much loss, my machine has more idle time than time wasted on chain
letters by several orders of magnitude, but that isn't the point.  I think
a chain letter violates the implicit charter of the USENET network, and has
little if any regard for the rights of others on the net.  In other words:
WASTED BANDWIDTH.


--
                     ____
Jim Perry       |\  /|||o\       ___     "...wordt de stem van het water
[e-mail]   ||><|||(|_>     /o  \/|   gevreesd en gehoord"
                |/  \||||/      \___/\|           - Hendrik Maarsman
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bio file of some UFO researchers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 02:28:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Warren) writes:
>
>What, no entry for Jacques Vallee?
>--
>            _.
>--Steve   ._||__
>  Warren   v\ *|
>             V

Not yet, but it should be easy enough to do. I'll look around and
see what I can dig up.

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watdragon!watyew!jdnicoll
From: [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 19:11:32 GMT
References: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>[e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes:
>|>(someone else):
>
>|>>Well, it probably crushed their skull, but if it hit their head
>|>>just right, it mightv'e completely knocked it off.  If it hit a limb,
>|>>it might have just caused a large flesh wound.  Any asteroid victims
>|>>alive out there, wanting to tell us their story?
>
>|>anyway, here is the gist of two people struck by meteorites in
>|>the 20th century.

    deleted
>
>These are meteorites.
>
>Asteroids are large chunks of rock, metal or carbon compunds.
>
>They range in size from very small to hundreds of miles in diameter.

    Hmmm. I wonder what the technical term for a small asteroid
passing through the atmosphere or the term used to label it after it
impacts the ground is? I wonder where the litlle bits of rock we
call meteorites come from? Tell me, what is the most likely source
for proto-meteor(ite) material?

                        James Nicoll
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uflorida!mthvax.cs.miami.edu!sol!bnw!p0.f1.n3609.z1.bnw.debe.fl.us!Nicholas.C..Hester
From: [e-mail] (Nicholas C. Hester)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 08:09:57 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3609/1.0 - Brave New Wor, Delray Beach FL
Lines: 51

NOTE: This message was originally addressed to ALL
      and was forwarded to you by TOM MONAHAN
                          --------------------
AREA:ALIEN_VISITORS
From: [e-mail] (Nicholas C. Hester)
Date: 9 Nov 91 14:20:56 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
says:
>
>/*/* Begin Emergency Transmission.
>
>WE HAVE BEEN EXPOSED!  GO IMMEDIATELY YOUR REGIONAL SECTOR HEADQUARTERS
>TO RECEIVE EMERGENCY CONTINGENCY PLAN-B DOCUMENTS!
>
>CEASE ALL CLONING ACTIVITIES UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.
>
>INFORM ALL CLONES TO OBTAIN ORIGINAL HANDWRITING SAMPLES OF THEIR HOST
HUMANS.
>
>INITIATE AUTOMATED SUBLIMINAL TRANSMISSIONS TO ALL TV AND RADIO STATIONS.
>
>ORGANIZE SEARCH GROUPS TO FIND AND TERMINATE THE EARTHING IDENTIFIED AS
>'GARY STOLLMAN'.  HE IS TO BE CONSIDERED AN IMMEDIATE AND SERIOUS THREAT TO
>OUR GOALS.  USE WHATEVER MEANS ARE NECESSARY TO REMOVE THIS MENACE FROM US,
>EVEN IF YOU MUST ELIMINATE OTHER HUMANS TO COMPLETE THE OBJECTIVE.
>
>WE MUST NOT FAIL.  OUR GOALS MUST BE ACHIEVED.  THE 'GREAT ONE' EXPECTS
ONLY
>SUCCESS FROM US.  HE WILL NOT ACCEPT FAILURE.  STOP AT NOTHING TO COMPLETE
>YOUR MISSION.
>
>/*/* End transmission.

Wow!!  Those Fundamentalist Xtians are really getting radical!!!
__

 Nicholas C. Hester
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
=





--
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uflorida!mthvax.cs.miami.edu!sol!bnw!p0.f1.n3609.z1.bnw.debe.fl.us!Jim.Shaffer
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  An UFO over Mexico city.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 08:10:42 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3609/1.0 - Brave New Wor, Delray Beach FL
Lines: 38

NOTE: This message was originally addressed to ALL
      and was forwarded to you by TOM MONAHAN
                          --------------------
AREA:ALIEN_VISITORS
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Date: 10 Nov 91 22:59:16 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott
the Great) writes:
>
>So does anyone else think that that mysterious organism they found in
>Texas just HAS to be the owner of that mysterious machine they found
>in Utah?  Inquiring minds want to know...

What mysterious organism in Texas?  Do you mean the mysterious organism in
St. Louis, Missouri, or is there another one?

By the way, I'm going to post the story for those who didn't see it.  I was
mainly waiting for someone else to mention it so I didn't look ridiculous,
because I doubt if very many people saw it.  (If you saw it somewhere other
than WNEP's noon newscast, two Fridays ago, let me know.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
w





--
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Venus Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 16:11:52 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 39
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17904 alt.alien.visitors:3245

FYI
This is being posted for John Winston.  As some of you may remember,  John
was told he could not post from his work place.  So I have offered him net
access through my account. I do not censor what he posts.  And I have advised
him that his posts tend to rattle the skeptics in their belief cages but he
wants to keep cross posting, so what can I do?  So look at it this way,  at
least I run his posts through a spell checker. :-)
Don Showen

The following is from the book
UFO FROM VENUS I CAME An Autobiography by OMNEC ONEC
Copyright 1986 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

Cover Page
This is a limited first edition published exclusively for those few
individuals who understand and are interested in the nature of other
intelligent beings in the vast universe and how they got here and why.
W.C.Stevens

from page 259
About the same time, in the middle 1950s, there were other equally extensive
contacts with UFOnauts who said they came from Venus. There were the contacts
of Lt. Comdr. Frank Halsey and his wife Tarna of Salt Lake city, that took
place all around their home area and even as they traveled around the country.
Mrs. Halsey says that the couple was summoned to the White House for an hour
and a half discussion in the oval office, alone, with President Dwight D.
Eisenhour, after his meeting with a team of Venusians at Muroc Air Force Base
in California in the early 1950s. the Venusians arrived in several disc-shaped
spacecraft and remained at the U.S. airbase awaiting the arrival of the
President by helicopter from Palm Springs; and then also remained overnight
with their aircraft sheltered in a hangar on the flightline. Mrs. Halsey said
that when she asked the President why he didn't announce his meeting to the
American people, she says he answered, "My dear, even a President can not do
all that he would like. It is out of the question." Two of those participants
in the Eisenhour meetings are still alive today. I am advised that a 5-star
Admiral, "Bull" Halsey, then Commander of the Pacific Fleet, an uncle to the
aforementioned Frank Halsey, also had a contact with UFOnauts who said they
came from Venus. These are pretty powerful statements, but I have interviewed
two eyewitnesses who confirmed that these events did actually take place.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!morrow.stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Neon.Stanford.EDU!amorgan
From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 21:53:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University, Ca , USA
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17905 alt.alien.visitors:3246

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>FYI
>This is being posted for John Winston.  As some of you may remember,  John

 (I left in the bit about John Winston just so we know who to flame :) )

..... deleted .....

>Cover Page
>This is a limited first edition published exclusively for those few
>individuals who understand and are interested in the nature of other
>intelligent beings in the vast universe and how they got here and why.
>W.C.Stevens
>
>from page 259
>About the same time, in the middle 1950s, there were other equally extensive
>contacts with UFOnauts who said they came from Venus. There were the contacts
>of Lt. Comdr. Frank Halsey and his wife Tarna of Salt Lake city, that took
>place all around their home area and even as they traveled around the country.
>Mrs. Halsey says that the couple was summoned to the White House for an hour
>and a half discussion in the oval office, alone, with President Dwight D.
>Eisenhour, after his meeting with a team of Venusians at Muroc Air Force Base
>in California in the early 1950s. the Venusians arrived in several disc-shaped
>spacecraft and remained at the U.S. airbase awaiting the arrival of the
>President by helicopter from Palm Springs; and then also remained overnight
>with their aircraft sheltered in a hangar on the flightline. Mrs. Halsey said
>that when she asked the President why he didn't announce his meeting to the
>American people, she says he answered, "My dear, even a President can not do
>all that he would like. It is out of the question." Two of those participants
>in the Eisenhour meetings are still alive today. I am advised that a 5-star
>Admiral, "Bull" Halsey, then Commander of the Pacific Fleet, an uncle to the
>aforementioned Frank Halsey, also had a contact with UFOnauts who said they
>came from Venus. These are pretty powerful statements, but I have interviewed
>two eyewitnesses who confirmed that these events did actually take place.

I have always been amused by the fact that the sexual peccadillos of Senators,
bribes, fraud, covert operations, infighting, etc. are common knowledge
despite the best efforts of the Government to keep it under cover, yet
something as big as space aliens landing in our back yard which the President
*wanted* to be revealed to the world has remained a secret for so long.

Amazing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions above are not mine.  I stole them all from the person sitting next
to me.  If you don't like them, I can get you his address and you can kill him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan "Long live the Goon Show" Morgan | "You rotton swine, you!" - Bluebottle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Watch out!  This gun is loaded and so am I." - Major Denis Bloodnok

    EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!  EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 22:45:55 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 15

Ahhhhhhh....Venus....Planet of Love.

So, John Winston, what do YOU have to say about all of this?

For my own self, I think I would like to meet some Venusians to
see if they REALLY are about the idea: "Love makes the world go
'round."  :-)

And beautiful Aphrodite, pictured in that Botticelli painting,
I notice she is a redhead!!!

Just out of curiosity, are there any redheaded men out there
that read this newsgroup?

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!verifone.com!ron_s
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Sentinel Newspaper UFO Reports
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 19:34:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI
Lines: 28
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3248 alt.conspiracy:8809 sci.skeptic:17908

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>
> SCIENTIST STUDIES SIZE AND DISTANCE OF UFO
>......
>    Multiple sightings and photographs help scientists locate the
> size and distance of the red glowing object that flew over Gulf
> Breeze on Wednesday, April 18, 1990.  Several of the thirty-plus
> witnesses who saw the object also video taped the sighting
> which further aids the investigation.  Using the 35 mm photos
> of the object, the angle of elevation and distance to the object
> was calculated to be approximately 3.4 miles when first seen
> to approximately 1.7 miles when the object disappeared.
>
.......>
>    From April 11 to April 18, there were five multiple witness
> sightings involving as many as 60 people, four videotapes and
> dozens of photos.
>
    Actually, the alien spaceships really want to land and let us
get a good look and some closeup color snapshots, but it seems that
body odors and other effluents from the human body, (like speech),
dissolves the surface metals of their partly spiritual, partly
physical crafts --- and they have no choice but to beat it out of
there, wherever there happens to be..  The USAF already knows about
this, so only sightings by unsmelly robots are taken seriously.
The robots are totally convinced that UFOs exist. The existence
of humans is only temporary.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!blaze.cs.jhu.edu!wilson
From: [e-mail] (Dwight Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 00:32:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University CS Department
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17909 alt.alien.visitors:3249

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>FYI
>>This is being posted for John Winston.  As some of you may remember,  John
>
> (I left in the bit about John Winston just so we know who to flame :) )
>
>..... deleted .....
>>
[UFO related "information" deleted]
>
>I have always been amused by the fact that the sexual peccadillos of Senators,
>bribes, fraud, covert operations, infighting, etc. are common knowledge
>despite the best efforts of the Government to keep it under cover, yet
>something as big as space aliens landing in our back yard which the President
>*wanted* to be revealed to the world has remained a secret for so long.
>

The truly paranoid among us might claim that the government ALLOWS
such leaks or even manufactures such events as misdirection.
Personally, I don't think they're that bright... or ar they?

Now, where do I find alt.paranoid?

For the extremely humor impaired: This is not really intended
as a serious argument.
--
-Dwight
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons."
                            -Alien Monster on The Simpsons
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!silver!erisande
From: [e-mail] (erin s anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 02:09:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <8d_3cYW00aw4E=[e-mail]>
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Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu

In article <8d_3cYW00aw4E=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro) writes:
>
>    Sending chain letters on the Internet (and many other networks) is an
>extremely serious violation of policies and can result in termination of
>network priviledges, [...]

I've noticed that if you forward the letter to the computer center
along with a small note saying "I thought you ought to know..." they
will like you MUCH better and will not take your privs away if the
letter is caught on down the line with your name on it.  The only bad
thing is...  The poeple who DO get their accounts suspended hate you
dearly.
                        Erin -
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                 Hey girl
               As I've always said I perfer your lips red
                       Not what the good Lord made
                          But what he intended
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Waters - The Pro's and Con's of Hitch Hiking      @->--     Erin Anderson
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From: [e-mail] (JIM GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 03:25:24 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes...
>I have always been amused by the fact that the sexual peccadillos of Senators,
>bribes, fraud, covert operations, infighting, etc. are common knowledge
>despite the best efforts of the Government to keep it under cover, yet
>something as big as space aliens landing in our back yard which the President
>*wanted* to be revealed to the world has remained a secret for so long.
>
>Amazing.
>

Yawn...

Jim Graham
         -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
 ______________________________________________________________________
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 20:19:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>, KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes:
>
>     Although the asteroid being dicussed is a myth, the danger of an asteroid
> striking the earth is not nonexistent.  In 1989 a small (and previously
> uncharted asteroid) came withing about 1 million miles (4 x the distance of
> the moon) and last year a smaller one passed between the Earth and Moon.

Erm, what sort of size is
                               2
            /   1 million     \
            |-----------------|    ?
            \Diameter of Earth/

"Not non-existant", indeed, but not something I've noticed as a specific clause
in my insurance policies. Unless, of course, it comes under "act of God". Or
act of Pleiadeans...


Jan

PS This has been bugging me for some time. Are the Pleiades really as close as
they look, or is it just the fortuitous alignment from earth?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 20:24:06 GMT
References: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>
>     Nope. Lemme try putting it this way. If an asteroid were to hit
> Earth, the chances are that most people end up dead because of it. Thus,
> all you have to do is figure out what the chances are of an asteroid
> HITTING within your lifetime... and that comes out to about one chance
> in ten thousand -- i.e., an asteroid is likely to hit Earth once every
> seven hundred thousand years or so, so its chances of hitting during
> any given 70-year span are 1 in 10,000.
>

So on average, the geological record shows that roughly every 700,000 years,
or so, all life the size of a human (or presumably larger) has been wiped
out by an asteroid strike? That's not counting, of course, all the smaller
asteroids that only wiped out half, or a quarter of the relevant population .

Ian
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From: [e-mail] (Zap Savage)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 18:36:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Savage Research, Inc. (San Diego, CA, USA)
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17914 alt.alien.visitors:3254

In <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
> I would tend to believe J.C.'s claims that what he saw was unidentifiable
> (that is, it was not Venus).  I say this since J.C. was an engineer
> (and of course, engineers are infallible :^) ), and thus could be called
> a trained observer.  An estimate of distance would only be made by him
> if there was reason to believe so.  Venus would only be a point of light,
> even under extreme atmospheric conditions, thus any trained observer could
> not make distance estimations.  I wonder if J.C. in his report gave
> an estimate of the angle subtended by the UFO using the object held at
> arm's length technique?  The impact of the observation obviously made an
> impact on him.

Yeah, but this is the guy who worked on nuclear submarines and couldn't
pronounce the word "nuclear"!  It came out something like nucular.

Zap
---
Zap Savage, Savage Research, Inc.
"Physics is experience, arranged in economical order." - Ernst Mach
"Expletive deleted." - White House transcripts
Path: ns-mx!uunet!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!harwood
From: [e-mail] (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 04:51:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Lines: 124

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (L. M. P. McPherson) writes:
>On the TV show, Unsolved Mysteries (November 20), they had a long report
>about UFO sightings in Belgium.
...
........................... Any (serious) ideas about the
>purpose of such activity?
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

I saw the show, but I'm not yet persuaded of anything yet by purported
evidence for UFOs being alien craft of some sort. But just supposing,
I think we might well assume that alien spacecraft are not manned by
biological lifeforms. They are too vulnerable, and I imagine that an
advanced rational species lives very long ordinarily, putting a high
value on life (and perhaps some amusing intellectual pursuits). On the
other hand, surely they would engage in some sort of 'cultural
anthropology,' shall we say. It is an interesting question what might
be their moral and religious concepts, also whether they might 'tamper'
with the data, so to speak, although I suppose there must be communication
among more than one such advanced species if there are more than one.

There are two means already known to us, never discussed much, by which
an advanced extraterrestial species could visit Earth. One is to physically
send robots. These could withstand great physical stress and require
far less energy for transportation than a biological species. (Eg they
could withstand very high accelerations (much higher than any biological
life form), and require almost no energy for 'life support' between
solar systems (when they are in standby mode ;-). No doubt they would
use some sort of 'stealth' technology too, and have a variety of sensors
including some based on laser technology which we do not understand yet.

There are two questions about this suggestion, though. What is the source
of their still very large energy? Is the craft essentially a computer plus
reactor plus servos plus sensors - a robot? Also, obviously the robot has
some sort of very advanced artificial intelligence (a creative amusement
of our advanced ET species?) But it may be possible that the ET species'
intelligence is partly assimilated, making for a better robot observer.
Anyway, the point is that the spacecraft should be robots or something
like androids perhaps - not holding their presumably biological creators.
(I doubt that there are non-biological original rational species - there
are good scientific reason, published by others, why this ought to be.)

There is another very, very plausible way, besides this, that ET species
could 'visit' other worlds, very fast, without physically transporting
themselves or physical representatives. They can very simply transmit
"computer codes" along with designs for hardware (using pictures, diagrams,
etc which can be easily understood- I mean, computer architectures are
simple as designs, a little harder to manufacture, though.) These "codes"
plus hardware "represent" the species here as a robot. This is much
faster than sending a physical robot; however this 'transport' can only
be achieved to worlds than have the technology to recieve the
communication (about the same as required to actually build the robot
- as both occur in our century, whose technology originates with the
investigation of the power of mathematical formalization (made famous by
early 20th century logicians- Hilbert, Russell, and others).

Beyond this, it is also possible that an advanced ET species could 'visit'
such a "high-tech" world physically very fast, in a sense, by simply
transmitting a "code" and "interpreter" for how to genetically construct
the alien species here by synthetic biochemistry. (Already, we can do some
of this for earth species. Of course, the interpreter might well be
different for an alien species. (It is surprisingly the same for all species
on Earth, except for one anomaly.) And we would need instructions for
"baby-sitting" and maybe some alien educational materials. (Plus a suitable
enviroment- no smoking please!)

I suppose that everyone reading this knows about a famous argument called
the "Zoo hypothesis" - made by an astronomer, I believe. It deserves to
be well known - far better than Carl Sagan's hypotheses about ET's which
are quite unimaginative (and erroneous). [Sagan, of course, is familiar
with this hypothesis, which is well-known among astronomers, physicists,
etc.] It is a very compelling argument: I won't go through all the
straightforward assumptions - but the conclusion is that if there are
any advanced ET species in our galaxy, they are almost certainly far
advanced of us (in terms of years of scientific civilization- we are
no more than 5000 years old, and really our scientific civilization
originates with the invention of two things - the printing press and
the calculus- since mathematical science requires that human memory
is augmented by arbitrary amounts of external "memory" and since the
calculus was the first, most revolutionary tool for technology based
on mathematical science - so our modern technological civilization
is only a few hundred years old. (Computers also augment human intelligence
obviously, but they are based on "external memory" and symbolic "calculi".
They add speed as a substitute for our slow biological hardware.)

So we are infants among any advanced ET species. Furthermore, it is
argued that it is virtually certain that IF there is any such advanced
ET species, one or more would have almost certainly explored the
entire galaxy (many times according to the simple, very plausible
calculations) already before now, if the exploration was a diffusion,
as opposed as to seek and return (and why would a robot return immediately
anyway, especially if it could transmit information back "home.")

They should have been here long ago (even before there were human beings).
Moreover, the galaxy should be filled with them - they should be inhabiting
every inhabitable world and constantly visitng everywhere else I suppose.

Moreover, the argument goes - there should be a predominant ET culture,
as a matter of cultural and technological diffusion, which absorbs
everything. It should come to fill everywhere.

At this point we have to ask, if our planet (which is really very much
rarer than Carl $. Sagan publicly claims) was visited before our time,
but when habitable- how come they didn't colonize our world? We clearly
evolved on this world with hte same genetic code as every other creature
here- and we are not advanced very far (beyond resolving disputes by
seeing who has the most powerful weapons).

But the question left by the author(s) of this hypothesis: How come we
haven't heard from these guys -if they are out there at all? It is not
as if they have to wait to hear from us at all. It should be only a matter
of chance before they relatively quickly (however long before they check
on Earth again) stumble on us- say a few thousand years? Why haven't
we heard from them with our radio telescopes IF they are there, the
skies should be filled with communications continuously.

Proposed answers to this are that either they aren't out there- we are
alone in the galaxy (it belongs to us, I guess) or for some reason this
predominate advanced ET galactic civilization purposely avoids bothering
us and avoids being detected easily. Maybe they haven't visited for awhile,
or maybe they are evasive so far, or maybe we perform badly on their
IQ tests, or flunk their moral or religious standards, or maybe we don't
have acceptable government...?

I sure would be embarrassing for them to say "Take us to your leaders." ;-)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!homer.cs.mcgill.ca!pisces
From: [e-mail] (L. M. P. McPherson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 06:44:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Administrator)
Organization: McGill University
Lines: 114

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Harwood) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (L. M. P. McPherson) writes:
>>On the TV show, Unsolved Mysteries (November 20), they had a long report
>>about UFO sightings in Belgium.
>...
>........................... Any (serious) ideas about the
>>purpose of such activity?
>\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
>
>I saw the show, but I'm not yet persuaded of anything yet by purported
>evidence for UFOs being alien craft of some sort. But just supposing,
>I think we might well assume that alien spacecraft are not manned by
>biological lifeforms. They are too vulnerable . . .
>
>There are two means already known to us, never discussed much, by which
>an advanced extraterrestial species could visit Earth. One is to physically
>send robots. These could withstand great physical stress and require
>far less energy for transportation than a biological species. . . .
>
>There is another very, very plausible way, besides this, that ET species
>could 'visit' other worlds, very fast, without physically transporting
>themselves or physical representatives. They can very simply transmit
>"computer codes" along with designs for hardware (using pictures, diagrams,

To try this kind of idea out in a non-physicalistic vein -- maybe they
can transmit the *idea* of a spaceship, not with radio waves, but
with thought waves. Practitioners of magick (not magic, i.e. fake magick)
sometimes claim to be able to create "objects" through acts of will.
I have never seen it done, but if it were possible, maybe aliens with
advanced psychic/magickal ability could create thought-objects and
control them from a distance. And like the witch with her "familiar"
(cat), they could use the distant object to obtain information
psychically. This kind of theory seems less plausible for ships that
contain humanoid beings that *appear* to be biological. Do you think
they are robots? Maybe that's why they all look more or less alike
(or so it seems; I've never seen any!). And yet people who claim to
have been abducted or had encounters often claim that the alien beings
communicate with them telepathically, so the robots themselves would
have to be telepathic! I have my doubts that a physical machine could
have such ability. It is a puzzle that they can apparently violate
physical "laws" (not that I take the hypothesised "laws" as of 1991 to
be the *true* laws of the universe) and withstand tremendous G forces.
Maybe their crafts have a way to counteract the G forces in some way.
I'm grabbing at straws here. My poor monkey brain is at its wit's end
trying to understand this stuff!

>
>I suppose that everyone reading this knows about a famous argument called
>the "Zoo hypothesis" - made by an astronomer, I believe. It deserves to

>straightforward assumptions - but the conclusion is that if there are
>any advanced ET species in our galaxy, they are almost certainly far
>advanced of us . . .

>So we are infants among any advanced ET species. Furthermore, it is
>argued that it is virtually certain that IF there is any such advanced
>ET species, one or more would have almost certainly explored the
>entire galaxy (many times according to the simple, very plausible
>calculations) already before now, if the exploration was a diffusion,
>as opposed as to seek and return (and why would a robot return immediately
>anyway, especially if it could transmit information back "home.")
>
>They should have been here long ago (even before there were human beings).
>Moreover, the galaxy should be filled with them - they should be inhabiting
>every inhabitable world and constantly visitng everywhere else I suppose.
>
>Moreover, the argument goes - there should be a predominant ET culture,
>as a matter of cultural and technological diffusion, which absorbs
>everything. It should come to fill everywhere.
>
>At this point we have to ask, if our planet (which is really very much
>rarer than Carl $. Sagan publicly claims) was visited before our time,
>but when habitable- how come they didn't colonize our world? We clearly
>evolved on this world with hte same genetic code as every other creature
>here- and we are not advanced very far (beyond resolving disputes by
>seeing who has the most powerful weapons).
>

Maybe that's why they didn't try to colonise our world; they knew we'd
throw bombs at them! After reading about this hypothesis, I still don't
understand why it's called the "zoo hypothesis." Is planet Earth a zoo
that they visit in spaceships? Hmmm . . . Maybe we can sell them popcorn.

>But the question left by the author(s) of this hypothesis: How come we
>haven't heard from these guys -if they are out there at all? It is not
>as if they have to wait to hear from us at all. It should be only a matter
>of chance before they relatively quickly (however long before they check
>on Earth again) stumble on us- say a few thousand years? Why haven't
>we heard from them with our radio telescopes IF they are there, the
>skies should be filled with communications continuously.
>

Maybe they are, but we can't decode them. It is very difficult to decode
a foreign language -- in fact impossible unless we have something like
the Rosetta stone that contains translations from a known natural
language. Research by experimental psychologists has shown that a
language can only be learned (in the absence of the possibility of
translation from a known language) by exposure to sentence-situation
pairs, so that the learner can decipher the meaning of a sentence from
the events occurring in the situation and, with exposure to many such
pairs, work out what the words mean and then how they fit together
(syntax/grammar). There are dozens of studies showing this to be true.

>
>I sure would be embarrassing for them to say "Take us to your leaders." ;-)

I'd introduce them to Frank Zappa. If they met our heads of state, they'd
get a really bad impression of homo sapiens. And they'd think we all
wore grey suits, white shirts, and ties. But then the "Nordic" aliens
all dress like (at least on Earth TV documentaries). But those greys --
are they naked or what?


-- Just wondering about wondrous things --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 04:24:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Coyt D Watters) writes:
>While I was watching the morning news, our local NBC affiliate's (WCMH)
>weatherman made an announcement about a near miss asteroid or cometary fragment
>(he wan't sure which) which was supposed to occur around December 5th.
>It is supposed to pass within 250k miles (close).
>
>Anyone out there have more info on this?

It was discovered on November 6th and it's believed to be between 1 and 11
yards wide.  (Don't ask me how they saw it!)  It's either an entirely new
class of Earth-crossing asteroids, or an upper stage from an Apollo rocket.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!mic!texsun!csccat!ncmicro!ltf
From: [e-mail] (Lance Franklin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 14:22:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: NC Microproducts, Inc. Richardson, Tx
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3258 alt.paranormal:3743 alt.angst:2583

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (SaintMeechTheChaste) writes:
}In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ken Primer) writes:
}>[e-mail] (Johnny Zweig) writes:
}>
}>oi
}>
}>>>..
}>>>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
}>>>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????
}>Oh No! I've got something important planned for July 14. Can't this wait?
}>=:-0
}>
}
}On the other hand, it will destroy the world's entire supply of SPAM.

Sorry, the world's entire supply of SPAM was destroyed a few years back
when that soviet satellite with the nuclear reactor reentered the atmo-
sphere.  Luckily, the accident also created an equal amount of spam-like
substance, which is what goes on the shelf as SPAM today.

Ain't science wonderful?

Lance "SPAM-LIKE" Franklin

--
Lance T. Franklin            +----------------------------------------------+
([e-mail])   | "You want I should bop you with this here    |
NC Microproducts, Inc.       |    Lollipop?!?"                 The Fat Fury |
Richardson, Texas            +----------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!seunet!kullmar!compuram!pgd
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,misc.legal,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 07:23:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 14
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17923 alt.paranormal:3745 alt.alien.visitors:3259 misc.legal:22634 alt.folklore.urban:28553

[e-mail] (James Perry) writes:
: Much computing time is wasted by
: countless copies of a useless and purposeless letter (IMHO).
.....
: little if any regard for the rights of others on the net.  In other words:
: WASTED BANDWIDTH.

The chain letter was not so bad as all the disussions about it.
If you are against junk mail, why generate 10-100 times as much junk
by discussing this chain letter. Why not just ignore it?
--
Per Lindqvist

Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!pacbell.com!att!rutgers!psuvax1!psuvm!j5j
From: [e-mail] (John A. Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 13:16:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Lance Franklin)
says:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
>(SaintMeechTheChaste) writes:

>}               [the asteroid]
>}On the other hand, it will destroy the world's entire supply of SPAM.
>
>Sorry, the world's entire supply of SPAM was destroyed a few years back
>when that soviet satellite with the nuclear reactor reentered the atmo-
>sphere.

This is not quite accurate.  My father-in-law has been keeping a can of
SPAM(tm) in the trunk of his car since 1981 "just in case he got hungry
for it on a camping trip or something."  I am not making this up.

Personally, I can't wait for the asteroid to get here.

>Lance T. Franklin            +----------------------------------------------+
>([e-mail])   | "You want I should bop you with this here    |
>NC Microproducts, Inc.       |    Lollipop?!?"                 The Fat Fury |
>Richardson, Texas            +----------------------------------------------+

Anybody selling any back issues of Herbie?
-----------------------------------
John A. Johnson ([e-mail])
Department of Psychology Penn State DuBois Campus 15801
Penn State is not responsible for my behavior.
"A ruthless, doctrinaire avoidance of degeneracy is a degeneracy of
 another sort.  Getting drunk and picking up bar-ladies and writing
 metaphysics is a part of life."  - from _Lila_ by R. Pirsig
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!jsinclai
From: [e-mail] (Jock of the Bushveld)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 14:58:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>>[e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes:
>>
>>|>anyway, here is the gist of two people struck by meteorites in
>>|>the 20th century.
>
>    deleted
>>
>>These are meteorites.
>>
>>Asteroids are large chunks of rock, metal or carbon compunds.
>>
>>They range in size from very small to hundreds of miles in diameter.
>
>    Hmmm. I wonder what the technical term for a small asteroid
>passing through the atmosphere or the term used to label it after it
>impacts the ground is? I wonder where the litlle bits of rock we
>call meteorites come from? Tell me, what is the most likely source
>for proto-meteor(ite) material?
>
>                        James Nicoll

Well, it seems that asteroids are small 'planets' up to 500 miles in diameter
that orbit around our solar system.
A meteorite appears to be defined as follows: a small particle of matter that
is only observable when it falls into the earth's atmosphere, where friction
may cause a temporary incandescence.

So, a small asteroid passing through the atmosphere may be called a meteorite
(but call it what you like!). After it hits the ground, the correct technical
term is 'rock'.  You are right.  Where do they come from?  Probably space.  ;-)

J.
--
       |\^/|                  //   [e-mail]
   ._|\|   |/|_.             //
    \  Canada /             //
    <____ ____>            //
Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!jsinclai
From: [e-mail] (Jock of the Bushveld)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 15:22:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 53

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>>
>> all you have to do is figure out what the chances are of an asteroid
>> HITTING within your lifetime... and that comes out to about one chance
>> in ten thousand -- i.e., an asteroid is likely to hit Earth once every
>> seven hundred thousand years or so, so its chances of hitting during
>> any given 70-year span are 1 in 10,000.
>>
>
>So on average, the geological record shows that roughly every 700,000 years,
>or so, all life the size of a human (or presumably larger) has been wiped
>out by an asteroid strike? That's not counting, of course, all the smaller
>asteroids that only wiped out half, or a quarter of the relevant population .
>
>Ian


I'm no statistician, but let's see what happens:
P(asteroid hits Earth in a given 70 year period)= 1/10000

Therefore, P(no asteroid hits Earth in a 70 year period) = 1-1/10000=9999/10000

For 700,000 years, we would have 10,000 70-year periods (surprise, surprise).
Since asteroids either hit or don't hit the earth in a 70 year period, we
can use the binomial distribution to calculate the probability:

P(no asteroids hit the Earth in 700,000 years)=
                    0           10000
        ( 10000 ) (   1    )  (  9999 )
                (       ) (--------)  ( ------)
            (   0   ) ( 10000  )  ( 10000 )


         = 1 * (1) (.367861046433...)
        = 0.367861046433

So, P(at least one asteroid will hit the Earth in 700,000 years) = 1-.367861046
433   = 0.632138953567 , and not 1 as intuitively believed.

Of course, are the assumptions correct?  I can't say.  But it does seem
plausible, given that asteroids could be the size of dust particles, as long
as they orbit the solar system.

The better question is: 'yes, ok fine, but who cares?'

Inquiring minds want to know!
only have to
--
       |\^/|                  //   [e-mail]
   ._|\|   |/|_.             //
    \  Canada /             //
    <____ ____>            //
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!tmr110
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gulfbreeze files - Introduction
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 15:44:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: HAM - Hackers Against MUDs
Lines: 95
X-Subliminal-Message: IBM/370 assembler is your friend.

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don Allen)
says:
> There are many allegations involving our wonderful military-industrial
>complex,MJ-12 with coverup activities involving so-called pacts
>with aliens at Roswell,Area 51,Dulce,etc.
>These are questions that would suggest conspiracy of the highest sorts
>with the "secret Govt" and ET's..

I don't know of these allegations.  Perhaps you can send me some info by E-mail
so I can judge them for myself.

>How can one ask questions about the Illuminati, Bo Gritz story,BCCI
>S&L loan failure, AIDS coverup and not see that these things may be
>related, even in the very TOP part of "who is the secret govt".

Illuminati, Bo Gritz, BCCI....I really don't know about these.

S&L failure, simple, the U.S. Gov't has borrowed considerable amounts of money
from lenders.  The lenders get their money from people who are saving it up.
The problem occurs when a lot of people need to dig into their savings all at
once (like in a recession), but the money isn't there because it has all been
lent out.  Also, U.S. businesses don't have the borrowing power they need to
expand, because too much is tied up in the Gov't debt.

What AIDS coverup?

>Answer the question about "who is in control", "who are the members
>of the Illuminati" and you have a connection to who MJ-12 is and
>what their function might be.

"who is in control?"...in control of what?..our country...I don't think any ONE
person is anymore.  It will take a LOT of collective effort to get his country
out of the mess it is in now.

"who are the members of the Illuminati?"....I give...who are they?

Sorry, these two questions don't lead me to believe in something called "MJ-12"
and a presumed function for it.

>One wonders what you will do when the economy is finally dashed
>to the ground by the secret govt (it's almost there) and your
>dollar is rendered worthless and the Tri-Lats come out with
>a "rescue" plan of a global credit system. You will be the first
>to get marked. Star wars? SDI...you fell for it..it's a LIE.

SDI...Star wars...I didn't fall for anything.  I've been voting non-Republican
for a while now because I think they are too self-centered (oh boy, I just said
a doosey)  Why is a "secret gov't" the reason for all of this?  I'm sure you
have *proof*, but I really don't apply much credit to the National Enquirer.

When the economy crashes, I don't know.  That is hardly something to plan for,
but I tend to think that I'll figure out something when I get there.  I agree
it will crash though, but I do not think it is some secrect Gov't.  Isn't is
just as valid to assume that our gov't is greedy.  Think about it, during a
recession our senators voted themselves a $25 grand a year payraise, bringing
their total pay to over $125 grand a year.  How many friends of yours make
this much money???

All I can see, is that for the past..almost 12 years the gov't (mainly rep.)
have been running a huge deficit, which in turn, boosts the economy (the
most effective way to boost an economy is to run a deficit, thereby creating
excess cash flow).  This great economy soars republican image and they stay in
the white house for a LONG time, unfortunately, all good things must come to an
end, especially when 1/4 of our budget is going towards INTEREST on our debt.
Now, when the S&L is collapsing, American business is sold to the Japanese (
which is probably the fault of american managment), and we are attempting to
pay back this huge deficit (the most effective way to slow down an economy
is to run a profit, hence removing cash flow) then there is no doubt that our
economy is in deep doo-doo.

So now, when things are starting to get ruff, the american people will start to
vote for democrats, like they always do, but the democrats probably wont be
able to do anything with this mess we are in.

I don't think we are screwed by a "secret gov't", but rather we screwed
ourselves.  No one listened 10 years ago when economists warned about an
increasing deficit...the economy was good, so everyone just said, keep it up
Regan, keep it up Bush.  Now when things are going sour, the republicans are
being abandoned.

>The Beast in Brussels knows all about you. Can you say 0110 0110 0110?
>
>This is your wakeup call pal...hear it well..many won't. When the
>paper currency falls is the emminent return of Nemesis.

HUH?

>Then where will you run to? GAIA?

I don't know.  Maybe Japan will bail us out, since we did the same for
them 50 years ago, besides they own most of the U.S. anyway...

>Don

----SLEDGE
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct
From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 16:34:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc.
Lines: 14
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17926 alt.paranormal:3746 alt.alien.visitors:3264 talk.religion.newage:7783

[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>Don't EVER circulate chain letters on the net!  I'm sick and tired of it!

That's why users aren't allowed to distribute chain letters!  Because
Jim is sick and tired of it.

That solved MY dilemma!

-brent

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent P. Burton, N5VMG                                    Computer Sci/Physics
[e-mail]                                        Texas A&M University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!case
From: [e-mail] (Bill Case)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Summary: lights
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 16:55:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (L. M. P. McPherson) writes:
> To hover for so long with so many human witnesses seems sort of
> exhibitionistic.

Yeah.  How come  they always come looking like my neighbor's gaudy house
at Christmas time?  If I was in the "snoop around alien worlds at night"
biz, I would assume my ""Guide to Snooping" manual would list "Turn off
the #&*&# lights" as a tenderfoot procedure.  Guess it's the motor.  Let's
sell them the B2!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watdragon!watyew!jdnicoll
From: [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 18:14:34 GMT
References: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>
>    Nope. Lemme try putting it this way. If an asteroid were to hit
>Earth, the chances are that most people end up dead because of it. Thus,
>all you have to do is figure out what the chances are of an asteroid
>HITTING within your lifetime... and that comes out to about one chance
>in ten thousand -- i.e., an asteroid is likely to hit Earth once every
>seven hundred thousand years or so, so its chances of hitting during
>any given 70-year span are 1 in 10,000.
>
    Most asteroids are small (Really small, if you count the dust
which is responsible for zodiacal light and gegenschein. Those particles
are about 10**(-8) kg each). Incoming asteroids won't be going much
faster than 70 km/s tops, which means a 1 kg rock (which is large for
objects encountering the Earth; most infall is dust-sized) would have
an Ek equal to about 580 kg of TNT. Dust will have an Ek of, at best,
5.8 milligrams of TNT. Most of the Ek will therefore be expended as
heat caused by friction with the upper atmosphere.

    Earth gets hits with many, many 'asteroids' per days. The
yearly rate is thousands of tons. Most of these cause no more effect than
pretty lights at night.

    A one klick rock might hit with an Ek equal to about 280 megatons,
which would Real Bad News for a lot of people, but rocks that large are
rare. Note that the Tunguska incident was a few megatons, but few people
died, since it landed in a sparsely occupied section of the Earth.

                            James Nicoll
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!ames!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!dowling
From: [e-mail] (Race Dowling)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 91 02:46:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17941 alt.alien.visitors:3267

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>FYI
>This is being posted for John Winston.  As some of you may remember,  John
>was told he could not post from his work place.  So I have offered him net
>access through my account. I do not censor what he posts.  And I have advised
>him that his posts tend to rattle the skeptics in their belief cages but he
>wants to keep cross posting, so what can I do?  So look at it this way,  at
>least I run his posts through a spell checker. :-)
>Don Showen

I hope that you are also sending him copies of our responses. If not, it is
unfair to post his opinions.

--

    Save network bandwith - be lazy.        -Race D.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm
From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Twelth Planet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 91 03:03:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 20

[e-mail] writes:

>Has anyone read Zecharia Sitchin's "The Twelth Planet"??  It deals with the
>translations of ancient Sumerian text.  There is extraterrestrial seeding and
>verification of Biblical stories, such as Adam and Eve and the Great Flood
>with some interesting twists.

>Please post all comments.

Yes, I have. But that's no reference, you know. Why, I've even read
the Book of Mormon, the Book of Urantia, the Necronomicon, and...
The gist of it, if I remember (it's somewhere on my shelves at home,
not here) is that humans were bio-engineered by the inhabitants of
that twelfth planet, which is on a very eccentric orbit around the
Sun, and gets close every 20,000 years or so. But don't believe me, read
the book. It's a good read. It's the author tiff with his teachers in
school about nephilim (which they translated by "giants") meaning
literally "the fallen" that started him on that track. Yes, that's
right, it says here "fall, vi. naphal.... fall, n. nephilah" (Bantam-`
Megiddo Hebrew dictionary).
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!ames!agate!stanford.edu!rutgers!pyrnj!pyramid!amdcad!netcomsv!noring
From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Followup to CFD: alt.physics.  What is the best name?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 23:49:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 91
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5205 alt.alien.visitors:3269 sci.physics:14855 sci.skeptic:17950

Just a recap of the original posting before summarizing the feedback I've
received so far.  I'll also ask for your opinion on what the newsgroup name
should be.

In article Jon Noring ([e-mail]) writes:
>
>I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss
>alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views.  It will
>be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully
>in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories.  I believe that it
>should be an alt.* group since it will obviously be on the fringe of science.
>Maybe at a future time if there is enough interest a sci.physics.* group
>can be created, but for now I think it best to stick to an alt.* group.
>
>
>A proposed name is:  alt.physics   (what else?)
>
>... [some text deleted (see the original posting)] ...
>
>A small list of...things that could be discussed include:
>
>* What is gravity?  What about Sakharov's conjecture?  Is anti-gravity
>  possible?
>* How do Maxwell's original equations compare to some of the approximations
>  that have been used (Heaviside approximation) and what are the ramifications
>  to our understanding of the universe.
>* Is it possible to derive energy from empty space? (There were a lot of
>  papers submitted to this year's IECEC discussing this possibility,
>  including some experimental evidence (which I admit is meager).  Some of
>  these papers discussed alternative theories of physics).  Obviously truly
>  fringe, but discussable in this newsgroup.
>* Is it possible to travel from one point in space to another point in
>  space faster than the speed of light (on Star Trek they do it all the
>  time by warping space itself- it must therefore be possible to do! :^) ).
>* Is time travel possible?
>* Cold fusion theories.
>etc.
>
>Anyway, let me know what you feel about the creation of the newsgroup,
>the proposed name of alt.physics, and what other subjects could be talked
>about.  If nothing else, it should be very interesting:  the proponents
>can have a forum to introduce their new theories, and the skeptics can have
>a good laugh!
>
END OF RECAP


So far the response has been very favorable.  I have had eight people support
the creation of the group (for very different reasons).  None have yet come
forward to oppose its creation.  Even the most skeptical of the responders
believed the group should be formed just so they can "kick the kooks out"
(as they called them) from sci.physics.

One area that still needs discussion before I request the powers to be to
create this newsgroup is its name.  The names that have been bandied about:

alt.physics
alt.physics.unconventional
alt.science
alt.science.physics
alt.science.unconventional
alt.science.physics.unconventional
alt.physics.new-theories
alt.physics
alt.sci-eng.unconventional

Some comment on the above names.  The alt.physics.unconventional was deemed
to state best what this newsgroup would be all about, but the word
'unconventional' was felt to be a little too unwieldy.  Is there a better
word?  Also, some responders felt that 'science' would be better than 'physics'
so it could include discussion of theories in other fields such as chemistry.
This would also make it more hierarchical (e.g., alt.science.physics).  One
poster made it plain that the newsgroup charter (and maybe the name itself)
should discourage discussion of creationism and other religious topics.  How
about this?

I look forward to your response.

Jon Noring


--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 754 Catalina Drive  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 91 07:21:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jock of the Bushveld) writes:
>
>So, a small asteroid passing through the atmosphere may be called a meteorite
>(but call it what you like!). After it hits the ground, the correct technical
>term is 'rock'.  You are right.  Where do they come from?  Probably space.  ;-)

Actually, they're only meteorites AFTER they hit the ground.  They're
meteors in the air, meteoroids in space.

I know of no difference between a meteoroid and an asteroid except size...

                            -- K.

--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         (specialty: logos & corporate
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]      identities) and type designer.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken!taco!ncsuvm!oduvm!blh100s
From: [e-mail] (Becky Hudgins)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Nov 91 13:37:58 GMT
References: <1991Nov19.142857.21557@anasaz>
Organization: Old Dominion University Computer Services
Lines: 8
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17951 alt.alien.visitors:3271

In article <1991Nov19.142857.21557@anasaz>, john@anasaz (John Moore) says:
>
>]> As a graduate student in computer science (therefore an engineer)
>]
>]How does being a graduate student in _computer_science_ make you an
>]engineer???

  I've got it--neither
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!pacbell.com!pacbell!pbhya!whheydt
From: [e-mail] (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 21:19:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Lines: 34
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17953 alt.alien.visitors:3272

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>FYI
>This is being posted for John Winston.

>As some of you may remember,  John
>was told he could not post from his work place.

>So I have offered him net
>access through my account.

>I do not censor what he posts.

>And I have advised
>him that his posts tend to rattle the skeptics in their belief cages but he
>wants to keep cross posting,

>so what can I do?

For one--you could try thinking about what *you* write.

(After all--if you think he shouldn't cross post--why are you doing it
for him?  If you protest that you're letting him post form your
account, then *you* become accountable for what you perceive as poor
behavior.  You might consider having him *mauil* the data to you with
a request about what groups it belongs in and then overriding those
wishes when you actually post.)

    --Hal

--
=======================================================================
Hal Heydt                    |    David Duke is to Patrick Buchannan
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |      as
510-823-5447                 |    Dan Quayle is to George Bush.
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From: [e-mail] (Csn0441)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 91 09:45:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jock of the Bushveld) writes:
>
>So, a small asteroid passing through the atmosphere may be called a meteorite
>(but call it what you like!). After it hits the ground, the correct technical
>term is 'rock'.  You are right.  Where do they come from?  Probably space.  ;-)

For the record, I believe a meteoroid is still in space, a meteor is in the
atmosphere, and a meteorite has struck the ground.  An asteroid, I believe,
is just one of the big meteoroids or planetoids that resides between the
orbits of Mars and Jupiter.  The name asteroid seems to also apply to bodies
that are believed to have once occupied that region, only to be knocked out
of orbit.   Some astronomers probably can give a more precise description.

Greg
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver
From: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 91 15:22:56 GMT
References: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Lose)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University
Lines: 40

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>>
>>     Nope. Lemme try putting it this way. If an asteroid were to hit
>> Earth, the chances are that most people end up dead because of it. Thus,
>> all you have to do is figure out what the chances are of an asteroid
>> HITTING within your lifetime... and that comes out to about one chance
>> in ten thousand -- i.e., an asteroid is likely to hit Earth once every
>> seven hundred thousand years or so, so its chances of hitting during
>> any given 70-year span are 1 in 10,000.
>>
>
>So on average, the geological record shows that roughly every 700,000 years,
>or so, all life the size of a human (or presumably larger) has been wiped
>out by an asteroid strike? That's not counting, of course, all the smaller
>asteroids that only wiped out half, or a quarter of the relevant population .
>
>Ian

Ian, I hate to tell you this, but we already had this exact same discussion!
Don't bring it up again! You'll get a zillion posts criticizing your
mathematical
abilities!


Well, to be fair, that isn't quite true -- but my previous posts on "expected
value" generated a slew of posts, and about 4 or 5 different ways of coming
up with a 1 in 10000 figure.  Big sense of deja vu if it happens again.


Tracy


>>So on average, the geological record shows that roughly every 700,000 years,
>>or so, all life the size of a human (or presumably larger) has been wiped
>>out by an asteroid strike? That's not counting, of course, all the smaller
>>asteroids that only wiped out half, or a quarter of the relevant population .
>>
>>Ian

Ian, I hate to tell you this....huh?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!ogicse!milton!sumax!polari!rwing!eskimo!nanook
From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config
Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics
Summary: alt.physics - YES!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 91 23:00:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3275 sci.physics:14864 sci.skeptic:17954 alt.config:5209

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro) writes:
>
>  There is even flaming in sci.physics, alt.physics will be much worse,
> still I think you should do it, it would be interesting.

     I've posted in some of the sci groups "alternative" theories and they are
always met with flames, which I wouldn't mind so much if those flames were
based on physical evidence, but generally they're based on the fact that I've
violated someones scientific religion.

     There seem to be a lot of people in the "Sci" groups that consider
legitimate science to automatically exclude any evidence that contradicts
established theory.  For that reason I think the creation of alt.physics with
the idea that discussions can be open ended, and that one can even discuss
things that contradict established scientific dogma.

     I would like to see maybe a hiarchy, more like:

     alt.science.physics
     alt.science.cosmology
     (etc)

     So that as other scientific topics come up they could be accomodated,
rather than limiting the discussion to only physics.
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From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Followup to CFD: alt.physics.  What is the best name?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 91 23:29:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5210 alt.alien.visitors:3276 sci.physics:14866 sci.skeptic:17958


        Well, I think the main reason you won't see any of us skeptics
objecting to such a news group is this; how could anyone really want to keep
others from exchanging ideas?

        Still, a little further distinction between mainstream physics and
what might properly be considered 'fringe' physics on the Net isn't a bad
idea.

        Probably the best name for the newsgroup would be alt.physics.fringe,
because a) 'fringe' is a nice short word, and b) it's relatively
unjudgemental or self-important.

        However, it's probably going to be a pretty wide-ranging topic--
you'll probably have everyone from UFO fans talking about propulsion systems,
psychic fans talking about either quantum physics, New Agers chatting about
'vibrational frequencies...' and that's the outer edge of things.

        Actually, you may want to try it as a mailing list.


""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
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From: [e-mail] (L. M. P. McPherson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 91 04:10:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Administrator)
Organization: McGill University
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>> A similar object was seen in Montreal on the night of November 7, 1990.
>> (The event was reported in the newspaper "La Presse", Nov. 8, 1990, p. A3.)
>> This UFO had a circle of lights (up to 10) and rays of light coming out of
>> it. It moved very slowly across the sky above a large downtown shopping
>> mall/office complex, and was visible for at least three hours. I remember
>
>    Doesn't it seem that if this event had really happened as described here
>there would be dozens of video tapes of it?  Wouldn't someone have called the
>local news stations?  Did everyone in Montreal just assume that someone else
>was taking a picture?

There was a photograph in the newspaper. Odd that you should assume there
were no photos taken.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 91 17:31:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 12
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 21 Nov 91 04:18:57 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> A similar object was seen in Montreal on the night of November 7, 1990.
> (The event was reported in the newspaper "La Presse", Nov. 8, 1990, p. A3.)
> This UFO had a circle of lights (up to 10) and rays of light coming out of
> it. It moved very slowly across the sky above a large downtown shopping
> mall/office complex, and was visible for at least three hours. I remember

    Doesn't it seem that if this event had really happened as described here
there would be dozens of video tapes of it?  Wouldn't someone have called the
local news stations?  Did everyone in Montreal just assume that someone else
was taking a picture?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!stanford.edu!rutgers!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+
From: [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Followup to CFD: alt.physics. What is the best name?
Message-ID: <kd=[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 91 01:53:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 12
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3279 alt.config:5212
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

I cut out the sci groups from the header so no one there gets upset.

    I say alt.physics or alt.science physics should the name. If it is in
alt, unconventional is usually redundant, in this case especially so
since there exists a sci.physics. Unconventional is also unwieldy to
have in the name. The names with new-theories and sci-eng are too
restrictive and unwieldy.

    Good luck, we all need a group for free discussion of physics and
physics related things free from the restrictions of the sci hierarchy.
Alt.physics or alt.science.physics (I really can't decide which of the
two is better) is an idea whose time has come.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: CFD:  alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 91 02:05:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 21

In a message to All <21 Nov 91 12:09> Jon Noring wrote:

 JN> Anyway, let me know what you feel about the creation of the newsgroup,
 JN> the proposed name of alt.physics, and what other subjects could be talked
 JN> about.  If nothing else, it should be very interesting:  the proponents
 JN> can have a forum to introduce their new
 JN> theories, and the skeptics can have
 JN> a good laugh!

Hi Jon.  I'm very much in favor of alt.physics as you propose it!  Fido & PODnet Alt. Tech echos are very slow, and my BBS's private Alt Tech area is moribund, too.  This is certainly the forum for it, and I would expect lively, high-level interest.

Best,
  Clark

PS -- BTW, what do you think about the Herzfeld equations?


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsh!wcs
From: [e-mail] (Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 91 03:58:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <8d_3cYW00aw4E=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Bush and Noriega - a CRACK Team!
Lines: 25
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]Raoul Ortega, of Venezuala, sent a chain letter over e-mail
]and contracted an inflamed colon within two hours. Loretta
]Donnely, of Newhurst, New Jersey, didn't send any, and
]received $1,200,333 three days later.

Hey!  There's a Loretta Donnelly who works here in my building!
It must be her!  If *I* don't send the chain letter, maybe she'll
give *me* some of the money!

There's another chain letter around that starts out like the usual ones,
but eventually gets down to events like
    "Oliver North *shredded* the letter instead of passing it on,
    and lost his job.  He later found another copy, Xerographed it,
    and is now making $big$ $bucks$ on teh lecture circuit.

anybody have a copy?  Perhaps by ABSORBING chain letters instead of
MAILING them out, I'[ll get even more good luck?

            Bill
--
                Pray for peace;      Bill
#Bill Stewart [phone] erebus.att.com!wcs AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ
# CIA has "always aspired to be more than a team, to be a family" - Robert Gates
# "Big Brother is Watching" - George Orwell
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From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 91 04:36:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3282 alt.paranormal:3760

In article <[e-mail]> some weenie wrote:
>.
>    HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S
>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ?????

It's amazing how large a tree of followups can be generated from one
dopey li'l posting like that, isn't it?

                            -- K.

--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         (specialty: logos & corporate
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]      identities) and type designer.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  UFOs in Belgium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 91 23:23:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (L. M. P. McPherson) writes:
>
>To try this kind of idea out in a non-physicalistic vein -- maybe they
>can transmit the *idea* of a spaceship, not with radio waves, but
>with thought waves. Practitioners of magick (not magic, i.e. fake magick)
>sometimes claim to be able to create "objects" through acts of will.
>I have never seen it done, but if it were possible, maybe aliens with
>advanced psychic/magickal ability could create thought-objects and
>control them from a distance. And like the witch with her "familiar"
>(cat), they could use the distant object to obtain information
>psychically.

The magickal theory is better than the robotic theory as long as there's no
non-psychic way to communicate instantly (or at least faster than light.)
I haven't seen proof of anything, but I've heard ideas.  (See, for example,
the April 1986 issue of Radio-Electronics, and the letter column of the
August issue; also "The Philadelphia Experiment" by Moore and Berlitz, in
which the authors say they've seen a classified government report on
gravity wave generation.  Unfortunately I haven't heard any follow-up on
either of these sources.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re:  Any Idea What This Is?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 91 23:32:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17964 alt.paranormal:3762 alt.alien.visitors:3284 talk.religion.newage:7800

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brent) writes:
>[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>Don't EVER circulate chain letters on the net!  I'm sick and tired of it!
>
>That's why users aren't allowed to distribute chain letters!  Because
>Jim is sick and tired of it.
>
>That solved MY dilemma!

OK, I admit to posting when I was in a bad mood.

But hey, I figure, if I'm going to read garbage on the net, it should at
least be *entertaining* garbage.  Chain letters ceased to be entertaining a
long time ago.    Like after the first one.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!sun4nl!dutrun!dutrun2!dmesatr
From: [e-mail] (Arthur van der Harg)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Followup to CFD: alt.physics.  What is the best name?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 91 15:17:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.config
Organization: Computing Centre of the Technical University of Delft The Netherlands.
Lines: 52
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5220 alt.alien.visitors:3285 sci.physics:14871 sci.skeptic:17965

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:

[...]

"One area that still needs discussion before I request the powers to be to
"create this newsgroup is its name.  The names that have been bandied about:
"
"alt.physics
"alt.physics.unconventional
"alt.science
"alt.science.physics
"alt.science.unconventional
"alt.science.physics.unconventional
"alt.physics.new-theories
"alt.physics
"alt.sci-eng.unconventional
"
"Some comment on the above names.  The alt.physics.unconventional was deemed
"to state best what this newsgroup would be all about, but the word
"'unconventional' was felt to be a little too unwieldy.  Is there a better
"word?

How about "non-std"? Then it could include non-standard theories,
as well as non-standard results or interpretations of standard theories.

"Also, some responders felt that 'science' would be better than 'physics'
"so it could include discussion of theories in other fields such as chemistry.
"This would also make it more hierarchical (e.g., alt.science.physics).

But it would make the name too long. Then alt.sci.physics.non-std would
be my favourite. Or why not sci.physics.non-std?

"One
"poster made it plain that the newsgroup charter (and maybe the name itself)
"should discourage discussion of creationism and other religious topics.  How
"about this?

"Jon Noring

Agreed. If people want to do this, they should start a
"alt.religion.physics/science" newsgroup, with occasional cross-posting
to "our" new newsgroup. The reason for this is that I expect religious
science discussions to be more concerned about the religious part than
about the science part. Inclusion in the charter should be just fine,
though.

Arthur
--
Getting tired of children?
Ever considered youthanasia?

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!stanford.edu!rutgers!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Followup to CFD: alt.physics.  What is the best name?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 91 18:30:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 42
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
>
>One area that still needs discussion before I request the powers to be to
>create this newsgroup is its name.  The names that have been bandied about:

[list deleted]

>Some comment on the above names.  The alt.physics.unconventional was deemed
>to state best what this newsgroup would be all about, but the word
>'unconventional' was felt to be a little too unwieldy.  Is there a better
>word?    Also, some responders felt that 'science' would be better than 'physics'
>so it could include discussion of theories in other fields such as chemistry.

I'd suggest "alt.science.{something}" so it could branch out a little.  The
names I usually hear attached to various phenomena are "alternative
technology" and "fringe science".  Maybe "alt.science.fringe"?

>This would also make it more hierarchical (e.g., alt.science.physics).  One
>poster made it plain that the newsgroup charter (and maybe the name itself)
>should discourage discussion of creationism and other religious topics.  How
>about this?

I would DEFINITELY like to see religious wars banned from the group.
Otherwise we won't be able to discuss anything else!  I stopped reading
sci.skeptic nearly a year ago because some bozos kept cross-posting flames
on the acceptability of the Bible as evidence to that group.  It had
started as a Creationism discussion, but people didn't have the brains to
move it elsewhere when it became an all-out religious war.  (For me it's
not a matter of kill files.  This is a private node, and I pay
long-distance charges for the very few newsgroups I get.)

There might be an *occasional* crossover, though.  For example, the
Creationist theory that the speed of light is decreasing.

It might also be useful to define a difference between religion and
mysticism.  My definition of a religion is anything which involves dogma.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!nosc!watop!north
From: [e-mail] (Mark North)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <north.690938802@watop>
Date: 23 Nov 91 23:26:42 GMT
References: <1991Nov19.142857.21557@anasaz>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 35
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17972 alt.alien.visitors:3287

john@anasaz (John Moore) writes:


>I strongly beg to differ with you. One who practices computer science
>is practicing engineering. I have done electrical engineering, and
>I have done software engineering. They are very similar disciplines:

I strongly beg to differ with your begging.

>  -they are based on mathematical theory, but that theory is usually
>   somewhat incomplete in its practical predictive powers

No shit. You're refering to counting, right 8^)?

>  -they involve using that theory, plus experience, to create things
>   which are useful to people

Yes, but you're talking the difference between sliced bread (a great
engineering feat) and Windows, right?

>  -they are professions, and have similar pay

We all lose on that one with basketball players getting $9.5M/yr 8^(.

>  -they involve creating and meeting specifications

Can two people equal one engineer? My lady friend creates specifications
and I have to meet them. Does that count? Oh, you were talking about
computer science. Sorry.

>This has NOTHING to do with alt.alien.visitors

Au Contraire

Mark
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!nosc!watop!north
From: [e-mail] (Mark North)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting
Message-ID: <north.690939978@watop>
Date: 23 Nov 91 23:46:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17973 alt.alien.visitors:3288

[e-mail] (Zap Savage) writes:

>Yeah, but this is the guy who worked on nuclear submarines and couldn't
>pronounce the word "nuclear"!  It came out something like nucular.

Watch out! You're gonna piss off a lot of good buddies with comments
like this.


"In spite of the decline of the Warsaw Pact we must maintain a portion
of our nucular deterent" -- Dick Cheney (SECDEF)









Mark
Nucular Phsikist
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewse!harryo
From: [e-mail] (harold.r.holm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFOs in Belgium
Keywords: any books yet?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 91 08:25:56 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 12

I thought the Unsolved Mysteries segment on the Belgian UFOs was
fascinating.  I'd say the evidence points to something happening.

Does anyone know of any books published to date specifically on
this Belgian UFO controversy, and widely available in the U.S.?
I haven't noted anything on the bookstore shelves yet......

H.R. Holm
*comments my own,
 standard disclaimers,etc.
 Please post replies to the
 group, not by e-mail*
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 91 14:39:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 32
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3290 alt.conspiracy:8883 sci.skeptic:17977

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davies) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>>The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.
>>
>>                     STRANGE LIGHT IN SKY DRAWS ATTENTION
>>           by David Baker, THE GULF BREEZE SENTINEL, March 3, 1991.
>>
>>  On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile
>>bridge. AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a
>>bright red light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze.
>>  The two men said the light would dim then come back bright red, stay that
>>way for a while and then dim again, all the while moving slowly in their
>>direction. They detected no sound from the object.
>>  Before the object disappeared it blinked to green momentarily, changed to a
>>brilliant white and slowly faded away. The sighting lasted about four minutes
>>and there were nine additional witnesses.
>
>This sounds like a description of a bright planet setting in the west.
>Apparently there are a lot of people out there who don't know Venus when
>they see it, and not a few reporters who are eager to grasp at straws...

For a sighting that lasted for *4 minutes* it is illogical to presume
that it was a planet. Read the description again.

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GIF: Gulfbreeze - ED Walters UFO part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 91 15:01:56 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 1019


This is a GIF of the craft that Ed Walters took his photos of.

When the 3 parts are assembled and uu-decoded the file length
of the GIF should be 129477 bytes total.
__cut here___________________________________________________


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---cut here--------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GIF: Gulfbreeze - ED Walters UFO part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 91 15:05:08 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 1015


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---cut here--------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GIF: Gulfbreeze - ED Walters UFO part 3 (end)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 91 15:07:12 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 897



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,??F7@3F8A=F? @ [

end

---cut here--------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config
Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 91 18:20:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
Lines: 12
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3294 sci.physics:14877 sci.skeptic:17978 alt.config:5222
Originator: grante@aquarius
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius

Since when do you need a Call For Discussion to create an alt group?

Did I missed out on some rule change?

Did I miss the CFD on the creation of alt.stupid.putz.putz.putz?


--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow! Hmmm... an arrogant
Rosemount Inc.                                |bouquet with a subtle
                                              |suggestion of POLYVINYL
[e-mail]                 |CHLORIDE...
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!dww
From: [e-mail] (David Wright)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: CFD:  alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Nov 91 23:30:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David Wright)
Organization: BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, GB
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5223 alt.alien.visitors:3295 sci.physics:14881 sci.skeptic:17988

In the referenced article [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
#I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss
#alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views.  It will
#be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully
#in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories.

In the discussion of this idea, nobody in alt.config seems to have
remembered that there IS a group for such discussions, even though Jon
included it in his Newsgroups list - sci.skeptic.    What's wrong with using
that?   Of course if the level of specifically physics issues in that group
grow to the point where they need their own group then you'll have a good
case for a mainstream group sci.skeptic.physics or some such.

Regards,        "None shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity"
       David Wright  BNR Europe Ltd, London Road, Harlow, Essex CM17 9NA, UK
[e-mail] <or> ...uunet!mcsun!ukc!stl!dww <or> PSI%234237100122::DWW
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!ac.dal.ca!rodger
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: DOWN 18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 91 00:15:19 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Lines: 17

We're looking for some videos on UFO's.  So far we've seen:
 1.  A Cosmos film which tried to debunk all known sitings
 2.  One hosted by William Shatner which was mostly Eric von Dannikan type
     information about visits in the past.
 3.  SETI, which was about the search for alien intelligence using radio
     transmissions
 4.  UFO's Are Real, which had some great stills and film footage.  This one
     was the most pro-UFO one we've seen.
 5.  Communion, which was a Hollywood type version of Whitley Streiber's book
     of the same name.

If anyone out there knows of any others, we'd love to get some titles to
search for.  We also know of the one based on Betty and Barney Hill's
experience which I think is called "The UFO Experience".  We haven't been
able to find this one yet.

Thanks
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty
From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: SOMETHING HUGE!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 91 09:38:34 GMT
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Abode Computer Services
Lines: 22




Dear fellow UFOlogists:


I have just heard some GREAT NEWS (hopefully I won't be let down) from
the upcoming UFO Conference to be held in Las Vegas next month:

SOMETHING VERY BIG WILL BE ANNOUNCED THERE.  SOMETHING THAT WILL
UNEQUIVOCALLY PROVE THAT THERE IS A UFO COVER-UP ON THE PART OF
THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

Let's hope so... Once and for all...  Eventhough I wasn't told any more,
I was told this by a UFO Insider.  That's ALL I KNOW!

Still, I thought it exciting enough news to share with all of you!

Take Care!

--Dusty
in L.A.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 91 03:43:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 4

If anyone wants real information on this Earth grazer, just check
out sci.astro.  The name of the object is 1991vg.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!tygra!dave
From: [e-mail] (David Conrad)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: CFD:  alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 91 08:24:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: CAT-TALK Conferencing System, Detroit, MI
Lines: 31
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5226 alt.alien.visitors:3299 sci.physics:14893 sci.skeptic:18003

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
>
>I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss
>alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views.  It will
>be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully
>in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories.  I believe that it
>should be an alt.* group since it will obviously be on the fringe of science.
>Maybe at a future time if there is enough interest a sci.physics.* group
>can be created, but for now I think it best to stick to an alt.* group.
>
>A proposed name is:  alt.physics   (what else?)
>
>Anyway, let me know what you feel about the creation of the newsgroup,
>the proposed name of alt.physics, and what other subjects could be talked
>about.  If nothing else, it should be very interesting:  the proponents
>can have a forum to introduce their new theories, and the skeptics can have
>a good laugh!
>
>Jon Noring

I can't think of any reason why this discussion couldn't take place in
sci.physics, sci.physics.fusion, sci.skeptic and alt.alien.visitors, as
the subject dictates.  If serious theories are going to be proposed, I
can see no reason why they shouldn't be examined by the experts in the
first three groups.  If crackpot discussions without criticism are
desired, I think they can be found in the latter.  'Nuff said.
--
David R. Conrad           |  TELEBIT,  DIGIBOARD, ADAPTEC,  DPT,  WESTERN
Sales Department          |         DIGITAL, ISC UNIX, MICROPOLIS
Michigan Network Systems  |    Phone: [phone].   Fax: [phone]
[e-mail]         |     T2500: $632  T3000: $610  T1600: $475
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!tulane!ukma!nsisrv!mimsy!harwood
From: [e-mail] (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Keywords: any books yet?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 91 17:10:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (harold.r.holm) writes:
>I thought the Unsolved Mysteries segment on the Belgian UFOs was
>fascinating.  I'd say the evidence points to something happening.
>
\\\\\\\\\
As I said before, I'm still skeptical, but what was surprising to me
was the apparent cooperation of the Belgium air force authorities.
(Who knows what NATO thinks about this?) [vis a vis the official US
air force reponse to intercepts over SAC bases reported years ago].

By the way, did anyone see the UFO-proponent on Larry King who claimed
that the Soviets have deep-space satellite photos of a huge cylindrical
UFO? More fun ;-)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!glasgow!degnans
From: [e-mail] (Santa Claus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Final warning - X the bodydigger
Summary: mail by the 29th
Keywords: coffee fanclub
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 91 15:47:28 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.
Lines: 25

To remind you:


X the bodydigger can be reached at the following address:

[e-mail]


Please mail him the following message by Friday 29th November:

'Have a good Saturday chunky!'

Failure to mail at least 300 messages to this location will result in
general mayhem, initially in the Glasgow vicinity, then spreading to
Scotland, the UK, Western Europe and finally rural Belgium.

For more information send mail to Santa Claus, the watcher at:

[e-mail]


All enquiries will be responded to quickly and confidentially.


This is no joke - this is real life.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!tigger!schiffd
From: [e-mail] (David M. Schiff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Nat'l Geo. Special
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 91 22:13:40 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder, Department of Computer Science
Lines: 2
Originator: schiffd@tigger
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.cs.colorado.edu

Does anyone have any comments regarding the special shown last night?
I don't get cable and wasn't able to see it.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!homer.cs.mcgill.ca!pisces
From: [e-mail] (L. M. P. McPherson)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Belgium UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 00:37:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Administrator)
Organization: McGill University
Lines: 34
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3777 alt.alien.visitors:3303

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dorian Farlight) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
>
>>Assuming what they said is not full of crock:  do we have a stealth fighter
>>that can silently hover for several minutes and then shoot straight up and
>>out of sight in a couple of seconds?  That would be some stealth fighter!
>
>I've read the stealth fighter story here.  The post also mentioned that the
>U.S. Gvnmt acknowledged it.  Whatever it was, it sure cause a lot of confusion.
>Maybe the UFOs should be called CUFOs - Confusing Unidentified Flying Objects.

Also, the stealth fighter would hardly be worthy of its name if it had
three big spotlights on its underside that could light up the ground like
a football field. And I've never seen a stealth fighter with a pulsating
red light in the centre of its belly that could emit a ball of red light
that zipped up and down between the craft and the ground (as witnesses
of the UFOs described). I have also never seen stealth fighters behave in
the manner that one of the UFOs did as captured on the radar screens at
military installations in Belgium (and filmed for posterity). Can a
stealth fighter descend/ascend at 1900 feet/sec? Does it travel at
1500 miles per hour (2414 kilometres per hour), twice the speed of
sound? The sonic booms might make it a little less "stealthy"!
And I would imagine that the Belgian government might get a little upset
if the U.S. military was performing manoeuvres over Belgium in this
way. The U.S. government is not above misinformation, so its "admission"
is hardly the final word. But hey, maybe they were American aircraft.
After all, those Americans are so clever, eh? Maybe they really are
light-years beyond the rest of us backward nations and can defy all
known physical laws.

Oh Great One -- We bow before your great Technology . . .

"Big Science -- Hallelujah . . . Big Science -- Yodel-ay-hee-who"
                                       (Laurie Anderson)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!nmsu!opus!niall
From: [e-mail] (Niall Graham)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 03:09:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Computing Research Lab
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3304 alt.conspiracy:8920 sci.skeptic:18023
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 21 Nov 91 17:13:49 GMT


>>  On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile
>>bridge. AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a
>>bright red light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze.
>> ...

>This sounds like a description of a bright planet setting in the west.
>Apparently there are a lot of people out there who don't know Venus when
>they see it, and not a few reporters who are eager to grasp at straws...

However, the direction from the three mile bridge to Gulf Breeze is SSE.

Has any *reasonable* explanation for the Gulf Breeze sightings
been proposed yet?

Niall Graham
Los Alamos
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+
From: [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 01:35:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 4
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3305 alt.config:5235
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>


    Will somebody *please* just newgroup alt.science.physics (I now think
that is a better name than alt.physics), instead of talking about it?
This is *ALT*, for goodness sakes!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!rtfm.mlb.fl.us!joshua
From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: that UFO gif
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 03:41:04 GMT
Organization: Innocent Bystander, Palm Bay, FL
Lines: 3

not really too incredibly impressive.

josh
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!jtb
From: [e-mail] (John P. Gibbons)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: DOWN 18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 91 16:18:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Abode Computer Services
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>We're looking for some videos on UFO's.  So far we've seen:
[list of a few video's deleted]

>
>If anyone out there knows of any others, we'd love to get some titles to
>search for.  We also know of the one based on Betty and Barney Hill's
>experience which I think is called "The UFO Experience".  We haven't been
>able to find this one yet.

The UFO experience was a made for TV movie and is hard to find on video (it
might not even be available at all). However every once in a while it will
turn up on tv somewhere. The USA cable network has shown it a couple of times.
As far as other video's try going to as many of your local video stores as
possible and search the documentary section. There is a lot out there if you
look hard enough.


Hope that helps,
John
--
  //   John P. Gibbons      uucp: ..!uunet!elroy!wciu!abode!jtb
\X/    El Monte, Ca     Internet: [e-mail]
"From the moment I could talk, I was ordered to listen." -- Cat Stevens
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!rtfm.mlb.fl.us!john
From: [e-mail] (John Blasik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: that UFO gif
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 05:03:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Innocent Bystander, Palm Bay, FL
Lines: 37

[e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>not really too incredibly impressive.
>
>josh
>

Oh, idonno. I kind of enjoyed the part that went:
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


and
M!MJ/(!YXL "(("@ HD/_#8'(T$,@))  " HH"$+$%%/L4 @/7?1P0R!\ .('

had me in stitches for 10 minutes!

-- john
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!athena.cs.uga.edu!groucho.dev.uga.edu!harold
From: [e-mail] (Harold Pritchett)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Followup to CFD: alt.physics.  What is the best name?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 13:58:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Lines: 27
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5237 alt.alien.visitors:3309 sci.physics:14913 sci.skeptic:18034

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
>Just a recap of the original posting before summarizing the feedback I've
>received so far.  I'll also ask for your opinion on what the newsgroup name
>should be.
>
>In article Jon Noring ([e-mail]) writes:
>>
>>I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss
>>alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views.  It will
>>be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully
>>in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories.  I believe that it
>>should be an alt.* group since it will obviously be on the fringe of science.
>>Maybe at a future time if there is enough interest a sci.physics.* group
>>can be created, but for now I think it best to stick to an alt.* group.
>>
>>
>>A proposed name is:  alt.physics   (what else?)

How about:

     alt.weird.science

(I couldn't resist)

Harold Pritchett
The University of Georgia
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 14:37:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Organization: University of Kaiserslautern (Germany)
Lines: 40
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3310 alt.conspiracy:8932 sci.skeptic:18036

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don
Allen) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James
Davies) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don
Allen) writes:
>>>The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.
>>>
>>>                     STRANGE LIGHT IN SKY DRAWS ATTENTION
>>>           by David Baker, THE GULF BREEZE SENTINEL, March 3, 1991.
>>>
>>>  On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile
>>>bridge. AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a
>>>bright red light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze.
>>>  The two men said the light would dim then come back bright red, stay that
>>>way for a while and then dim again, all the while moving slowly in their
>>>direction. They detected no sound from the object.
>>>  Before the object disappeared it blinked to green momentarily,
changed to a
>>>brilliant white and slowly faded away. The sighting lasted about four
minutes
>>>and there were nine additional witnesses.
>>
>>This sounds like a description of a bright planet setting in the west.
>Apparently there are a lot of people out there who don't know Venus when
>>they see it, and not a few reporters who are eager to grasp at straws...
>
>For a sighting that lasted for *4 minutes* it is illogical to presume
>that it was a planet. Read the description again.

The description doesn't say anything about the weather. Planets may disappear
behind clouds you don't see because of darkness, and Venus can be visible when
there are no stars.

-Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-
------------(thomas kettenring, kaiserslautern, germany)-----------
--The human mind is too complex to understand for the human mind,--
--or, in other words, the human mind is too simple to understand---
--------------------------the human mind.--------------------------
-Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!blacks!pquince
From: [e-mail] (Peter Quince)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <rob.691185980@blacks>
Date: 26 Nov 91 20:06:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3311 alt.conspiracy:8939 sci.skeptic:18050
Nntp-Posting-Host: blacks.jpl.nasa.gov

[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

>>This sounds like a description of a bright planet setting in the west.
>>Apparently there are a lot of people out there who don't know Venus when
>>they see it, and not a few reporters who are eager to grasp at straws...

>For a sighting that lasted for *4 minutes* it is illogical to presume
>that it was a planet. Read the description again.
>

Yes, but it was a UFO.  It was in the air.  It was an object.  It
was not identified.  Who cares what it was?  Speculation is pointless.
It was, in fact, not anything.  It was nothing.  It was some guys
telling what they saw.  So what.  So what.  So what.

So what.

-P Quince
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!mojo.eng.umd.edu!mimsy!harwood
From: [e-mail] (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Belgium UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 19:50:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.paranormal
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3785 alt.alien.visitors:3312

>>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
>>
>>>Assuming what they said is not full of crock:  do we have a stealth fighter
>>>that can silently hover for several minutes and then shoot straight up and
>>>out of sight in a couple of seconds?  That would be some stealth fighter!
>>
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
    Actually, we are forgetting something here - the U.S. not only
tries to develop stealth aircraft, but tries to develop ECM, electronic
counter-measures, technology for its stealth and conventional aircraft.
The idea is to build a stealth aircraft which cannot be detected easily
by radar reflection, but which electronically recieves the radar signals
so that it re-emits false "echoes" which misrepresent the range and
velocity of the aircraft. (There can even be multiple false bogeys.)
    Possibly the Belgium radar systems were being intentionally
tested by stealth aircraft with advanced ECM. It would explain the high
accelerations in range. (It might explain lateral or angular vectors,
of course.)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!mcollinson
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Twelth Planet
Message-ID: <422800006@peg>
Date: 26 Nov 91 20:41:00 GMT
References: <14754542@[e-mail]>
Lines: 12
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail]:-1475454236:peg:422800006:000:538
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!mcollinson    Nov 26 16:41:00 1991


Wow, I was just about to post a similar request.  I am halfway through
reading the Twelth Planet, and I find it quite amazing.  What I would like
to know, is, Are there any studies, evidence, etc around which claim to
refute Sitchin's thesis, that aliens were here in the past, and have seeded
the earth with humans.  Also the astronomical evidence for the twelth planet
seems to be quite convincing.  Any astronomers out there familiar with the
theory?

I would love to hear a critique of Sitchins work.  That is, if there is one.

Mark
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!psuvax1!rutgers!noao!arizona!arizona.edu!east.pima.edu!130hnunamake
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: IN SEARCH IN ARIZONA...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 20:26:36 GMT
Lines: 2

IM SEARCHING FOR ANY GROUPS THAT TAKE UFO'S SERIOUSLY IN ARIZONA.  IF YOU KNOW
OF ANY GROUPS PLEASE SEND ME ANYTHING YOU HAVE...
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm
From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: A New Type of UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 23:15:49 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 8



(Was: Any Idea What This Is?)

Since "This" has generated so much interest
on alt.alien.visitors, it must be a UFO:

Unauthorized Fallacious Offer
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  CFD:  alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 17:09:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 25
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5247 alt.alien.visitors:3316 sci.physics:14936 sci.skeptic:18058

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Wright) writes:
>
>In the discussion of this idea, nobody in alt.config seems to have
>remembered that there IS a group for such discussions, even though Jon
>included it in his Newsgroups list - sci.skeptic.    What's wrong with using
>that?     Of course if the level of specifically physics issues in that group

I can't speak for Jon, but it's been my experience that sci.skeptic is
frequently more like sci.debunk.rabidly.  I have no desire to be personally
attacked for my viewpoints.  Do you remember the flaming about last January
when several people who wished to discuss psychic phenomena wanted to start
a sci.paranormal newsgroup?  Some of the people in sci.skeptic refused to
recognize the fact that not everyone who believes in such things is having
trouble dealing with reality.  That was half of the reason I stopped
receiving sci.skeptic.    When it was good it was very good, but when it was
bad it was very bad, and it was on a real bad streak.  (Of course, the
people who insisted on using that group to discuss Christianity despite all
the suggestions to move it elsewhere, didn't help.  They were the other
half of the reason.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  UFOs in Belgium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 18:24:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Harwood) writes:
>
>By the way, did anyone see the UFO-proponent on Larry King who claimed
>that the Soviets have deep-space satellite photos of a huge cylindrical
>UFO? More fun ;-)

I don't know what the thing in the picture is, it could be a defect in the
system for all I know, but Don Ecker takes it very seriously.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Nat'l Geo. Special
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 19:01:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 8

I don't have time to say much, but it seemed to cover just about every
possible theory about the circles.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config
Subject: Re:  CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 16:23:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3319 sci.physics:14937 sci.skeptic:18059 alt.config:5248

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Dinse) writes:
>     I would like to see maybe a hiarchy, more like:
>
>     alt.science.physics
>     alt.science.cosmology
>     (etc)
>
>     So that as other scientific topics come up they could be accomodated,
>rather than limiting the discussion to only physics.

But that means having to add a bunch of newsgroups all the time, rather
than just one.    I still like something like "alt.science" or
"alt.science.fringe".

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ufos In Belgium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 17:23:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 19


 > I thought the Unsolved Mysteries segment on the Belgian UFOs was
 > fascinating.  I'd say the evidence points to something happening.
 >
 > Does anyone know of any books published to date specifically on
 > this Belgian UFO controversy, and widely available in the U.S.?
 > I haven't noted anything on the bookstore shelves yet......

Watch for something soon.  Auguste Meessen has published a book in French on
the entire Beligian case and that book is being translated into English for
distribution in the US.  Meessen is associated with SOBEPS, the group that has
been conducting the investigation.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Something Huge!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 17:24:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 22


 > I have just heard some GREAT NEWS (hopefully I won't be let down) from
 > the upcoming UFO Conference to be held in Las Vegas next month:
 >
 > SOMETHING VERY BIG WILL BE ANNOUNCED THERE.  SOMETHING THAT WILL
 > UNEQUIVOCALLY PROVE THAT THERE IS A UFO COVER-UP ON THE PART OF
 > THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.
 >
 > Let's hope so... Once and for all...  Eventhough I wasn't told any more,
 > I was told this by a UFO Insider.  That's ALL I KNOW!
 >
 > Still, I thought it exciting enough news to share with all of you!

Let's hope so.  This line has been used over the last forty years with nothing
revelatory forthcoming.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ufos In Belgium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 17:30:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 34


 > As I said before, I'm still skeptical, but what was surprising to me
 > was the apparent cooperation of the Belgium air force authorities.
 > (Who knows what NATO thinks about this?) [vis a vis the official US
 > air force reponse to intercepts over SAC bases reported years ago].

Let's stay skeptical.  There are two possible scenarios involving the Belgian
military:

1)  They are up to no good by bringing in a civilian group only to confuse
them and mislead them, eventually to discredit them;
or
2)  This represents an unprecedented turning point in organized ufology, and
someone is trying to get the subject legitimized.

I have already heard from someone there who has a differing viewpoint, which I
shall post here.  We must keep a close eye on this case as it unfolds.

 > By the way, did anyone see the UFO-proponent on Larry King who claimed
 > that the Soviets have deep-space satellite photos of a huge cylindrical
 > UFO? More fun ;-)

That was ParaNet's Don Ecker.  He is also research director for UFO Magazine.
The photograph that he showed was provided by Dr. Marina Popovich, a Russian
Air Force Colonel.  Although the photograph has not been formally studied by
anyone here in the US, it is highly interesting.  Don will be joining us here
in the very near future.

The Belgian matter will follow this message.

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Belgian UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Nov 91 17:30:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 146


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Michael Corbin
 * Originally dated 11-24-91 23:25

The following report has been provided by Jean Manfroid of the Liege University
and the Institute of Astrophysics.  Mr. Manfroid is a subscriber to the ParaNet
digest on Internet.

SCIENTISTS OF THE ASTROPHYSICAL INSTITUTE OF THE UNIVERSITY OF
LIEGE COMMUNICATE THE FOLLOWING REPORT ON THE SOBEPS BOOK
ABOUT BELGIAN UFOS, AND AGREE TO HAVE IT DISTRIBUTED VIA PARANET.

Belgian UFOs

SOBEPS, a Belgian association of UFO buffs has compiled and
published a series of accounts of UFO sightings in the Liege
area. The title is "The UFO wave over Belgium" (in French), and
it is now a top selling book here. The preface is by the French
CNRS scientist Petit, well-known for the fact that his scientific
inspiration is due to aliens (coming from planet UMMO, 15 light
years from us, as you should know). Coincidentally, Dr Petit and
others are publishing at the same time books on the UMMITs.

The Belgian scientific community and specially the astronomers have
followed the development of this UFO story since its beginning
two years ago. The first events were reported at a time when
many astronomers were busy observing several comets, among other
things.  Moreover,  Western Europe was blessed with nice
weather, so that the night sky was particularly well examined by
many expert observers. A very impressive Venus hung for several
months in the evening sky.  There was  also a rather intense
activity at the local airport, with frequent AWACS patrols. And,
as usual, lots of aircrafts crossed the Liege area, with, at any
time, a minimum of 3 or 4 to be seen.

As always during the eastern elongations of Venus (sensibly more
than for the morning elongations, like the current one), we
received many calls from people excited by strange lights
crossing the evening sky. When more information was asked, it
almost invariably turned out to be Venus, although the Moon and
halos were sometimes implied.  We were also asked to examine
several video tapes received by the national TV station.  Again,
Venus was almost always the culprit.  These tapes were, as a rule,
affected by very bad images, the automatic focusing being fooled
by surrounding objects, or by trying to catch a point source at
infinity... Nice effects were obtained with extra-focal images
of the aperture stop, pulsating disks etc.  We were often
surprised by the descriptions given by the people who took the
videos: they cited distances of 30 or 50 meters, they spoke of
hanging globes, moving rapidly, following their cars etc...
though their recordings showed much more benign events.
Invariably, all those people were looking at the sky for the first
time. This raises some doubts on the validity of occasional
witnesses.

Some of these accounts, as well as others, were relayed by the
media. Video tapes of aircrafts at night, showing only their
lights were visible.  The snowball effect rapidly developed.
Witnesses appeared, reporting triangles in the sky, while
frustrated astronomers, albeit logging many more hours of
observations (with sophisticated equipment), continued to see
satellites, meteorites, aircrafts (at times as triangles of
light spots).  Apparently SOBEPS accepts the fact that Belgian
UFOs adopted the international conventions for the lights on
their flying crafts. That three lights could form
a triangle seemed to have impressed SOBEPS analysts.
Meanwhile the public became "ripe" for a "serious"
brain-storming by SOBEPS.
Several observing campaigns were set up with many UFOs being caught.
The air force was somehow involved, with air fighters ready to
take off on short notice.  One fighter caught, during a few
seconds, spurious echoes with supersonic velocities. Certainly
some atmospheric or electronic disturbance, but this was
interpreted by SOBEPS as the ultimate proof of alien visitors
(when a police radar clocked a road signal above the speed limit
some years ago, nobody thought of that interpretation). Nothing
was seen visually, which means that, though UFOs can be invisible,
they do not have the certainly much simpler stealth technology.
Again, during those campaigns, expert amateur and professional
astronomers saw no UFOs at all.

All these accounts are compiled in the biased SOBEPS book.  A
typical example of the scientific philosophy of the SOBEPS can
be found in a UFO sighting during the February 90 lunar eclipse.
Hundreds of people were in the field, observing the sky, and
they saw the Moon, but also planets, stars, satellites and
aircrafts.  But from inside the bathroom of a nearby house, one
person glimpsed some fast-moving light close to the Moon. She
got another brief glimpse from another window.  This witness was
retained in the SOBEPS compilation.  The poor folks who had
perfect observing conditions, who knew something about the sky,
and who saw a plane instead of a UFO, are not given consideration.

The photographic and video material included in the report is
very poor.  After picking out aircrafts and astronomical
objects, only out-of-focus, blurred images remain. Some of them
certainly are fabricated. Most awful of all is the grotesque
cover picture.  One of the strangest aspects is that, in spite
of thousands of witnesses, no clear, crisp, image has been
produced. Any other so widespread phenomenon would have resulted
in hundreds of nice photographs and kilometers of indisputable
video material.

The release of the SOBEPS report was greeted by full-page
articles in newspapers with provocative titles stating that
alien visitors are among us, and that this is now a
scienfically accepted fact.  The national TV network danced to
the same tune.

We made public our concerns on the issue and a note was quickly
released to the press by 10 scientists from various
institutions. This note found some positive echoes in the media.
Our intent was to disprove the alleged implication of the
scientists in this affair (only 2 or 3 scientists are involved
in the SOBEPS activities).  We have looked at the SOBEPS report,
and we found that it is in no way a scientific work. It does not
bring the tiniest bit of evidence in favor of alien visitors.
Discovering evidence of extra-terrestrial life would be a
tremendous feat in the history of mankind, but SOBEPS-like works
do nothing toward such a discovery.  On the contrary, there is
some risk to bring bad publicity to serious projects like SETI.
A conclusion that might be drawn by some, is that the Belgian
UFO wave is just a well-orchestrated commercial affair, with
deliberate exploitation of human credulity.

Our general opinion is that the SOBEPS report totally lacks
scientific objectivity.

N.B. An excellent, in-depth, exhaustive, coverage of the UFO phenomenon,
had been published in early 1990, by Marc Hallet --
"Historical and scientific analysis of the UFO phenomenon" --
but in a limited number of copies. The small impact of this
serious, scientific, work, compared to the giant waves generated
by SOBEPS and other farcical compilations is frustrating.


J. Demaret, N. Grevesse, A. Lausberg, J. Manfroid, A. Noels
J. Surdej, J.P. Swings

(Institute of Astrophysics, University of Liege)

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!nstn.ns.ca!morgan.ucs.mun.ca!kean.ucs.mun.ca!dmartin
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Birthday!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 12:09:47 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (NNTP server account)
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Lines: 3

My friend, Cindy Wendel, has her 20th Birthday today ( Wednesday, 27
Nov).  She loves to get mail.  Her email address is
'[e-mail]'. Thank-you!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!ukma!hsdndev!encore!parity!epeterso
From: [e-mail] (Eric Peterson)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <epeterso.691266128@parity>
Date: 27 Nov 91 18:22:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Eric Peterson)
Followup-To: alt.config
Organization: Encore Computer Corp, Gemini Diagnostics Development
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5254 alt.alien.visitors:3325 sci.physics:14951 sci.skeptic:18068
Nntp-Posting-Host: parity.encore.com
News-Software: NN 6.4.16

[e-mail] (David Wright) writes:

| In the referenced article [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
| #I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss
| #alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views.  It will
| #be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully
| #in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories.
|
| In the discussion of this idea, nobody in alt.config seems to have
| remembered that there IS a group for such discussions, even though Jon
| included it in his Newsgroups list - sci.skeptic.

In the history of the alt.* hierarchy, nobody in alt.config seems to have
remembered that there IS a group in the alt.* hierarchy for such discussions:
alt.paranormal.

Eric
--
       Eric Peterson <> [e-mail] <> uunet!encore!epeterson
   Encore Computer Corp. * Ft. Lauderdale, Florida * [phone] x 5208
 "The heat and light from the sun are caused by the nuclear reaction between
    hydrogen, helium, oxygen, estrogen, AND hair." - They Might Be Giants
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Don Ecker
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 91 18:55:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 39

>>By the way did anyone see the UFO proponent on Larry King who claimed
>>that the Soviets have deep space sat photos of a huge cylindrical UFO
>>More Fun ;-)

>>That was Paranets Don Ecker.He is Research Dir of UFO Magazine.The
>>photo that he showed was provided by Dr Marina Popovich a Russian Lt Coln


Well Larry said something to the effect"I'd like to do more on this"I
hope that indeed thier's more on this in particular the photos claiming
to show an ETOI spaceship taken by a Phobos craft 1 of which Don Ecker
held up.He said he had got it at a Tucson UFO conference & the object
in question was estimatedto be 25km long.
Questions that came immediately to mind include.
1/Who exactly is Dr Popovich.
2/Why was she at the Tucson conference.
3/Why hadn't these photos been widely publicised before.
4/How did Popovich get hold of them.
5/What she plans to do with them.
6/Who did she get them from.
7/Why they were available at all.
8/What will Don Ecker do with them.
9/What Don Ecker hopes to do with them.
10/What Don Ecker hopes others will do with them.
11/What Don Ecker hopes will happen if nothing much else will happen
to them.
12/What the bods at NASA think of them.
13/Has anyone tried to make fakes identical to them.
14/WHAT THOSE ON THIS GROUP WILL DO ABOUT IT ALL......

And also whats the lowdown on this UFO Video Clearinghouse & the press
releases on the crop circles that received no replies?

Will be most interested in a response & followups.

************************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY OR ARE
THEY JUST WAITING TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL
******************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!cornell!uw-beaver!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config
Subject: Re:  CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 20:14:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 27
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3327 sci.physics:14952 sci.skeptic:18069 alt.config:5256

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
...
|> But that means having to add a bunch of newsgroups all the time, rather
|> than just one.    I still like something like "alt.science" or
|> "alt.science.fringe".
|>
...


Put me down for "alt.science.fringe".

I don't think that just the "alt" hierarchy is enough, it needs something
else in the name to make it different than "sci.physics". "fringe" sums it
up quite nicely without being offensive. Using "science" rather than "physics"
opens it up better.


my 2


Leonard.

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stan!dennis
From: [e-mail] (Dennis Lemon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cylindrical UFO  WAS: Re: Don Ecker
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 20:33:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc., Longmont, CO
Lines: 42

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sutton) writes:
>>>By the way did anyone see the UFO proponent on Larry King who claimed
>>>that the Soviets have deep space sat photos of a huge cylindrical UFO
>>>More Fun ;-)
>
>>>That was Paranets Don Ecker.He is Research Dir of UFO Magazine.The
>>>photo that he showed was provided by Dr Marina Popovich a Russian Lt Coln
>
>
>Well Larry said something to the effect"I'd like to do more on this"I
>hope that indeed thier's more on this in particular the photos claiming
>to show an ETOI spaceship taken by a Phobos craft 1 of which Don Ecker
>held up.He said he had got it at a Tucson UFO conference & the object
>in question was estimatedto be 25km long.

    *******    Rhetorical Questions Deleted *******

Let's discuss this.  Does anyone know any information about large
cylindrical ships which are used for interplanetary transport?

I attended a lecture by Gene Roddenbury (yes, Star Trek) back in the
mid-1970s.  He described a cylindrical ship in his discussion as being
similar to what we use aircraft carriers for - ferrying smaller UFOs
around.

Does anyone have any information on this?  With Gene's passing away,
I regret having never tried contacting him about this.  Have any of
you ever attended one of his UFO lectures?  And do you recall him
mentioning this?

>************************************
>ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY OR ARE
>THEY JUST WAITING TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL
>******************************************
>

ETOI.  ETOI.  I give up.  What does ETOI stand for?
--
||||mmm________________mmm||||     <----Get Into Some Heavy Metal!
     \\       =====     //  Dennis Lemon          Some guy who works at...
      \\      O  O'    //   [phone]        Solbourne Computer, Inc
       \\      (  '   //    [e-mail]  Longmont, Colorado 80501
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440
From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: DOWN 18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 20:46:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 29
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:

>We're looking for some videos on UFO's.  So far we've seen:
> 1.  A Cosmos film which tried to debunk all known sitings
> 2.  One hosted by William Shatner which was mostly Eric von Dannikan type
>     information about visits in the past.
> 3.  SETI, which was about the search for alien intelligence using radio
>     transmissions
> 4.  UFO's Are Real, which had some great stills and film footage.  This one
>     was the most pro-UFO one we've seen.
> 5.  Communion, which was a Hollywood type version of Whitley Streiber's book
>     of the same name.
>
>If anyone out there knows of any others, we'd love to get some titles to
>search for.  We also know of the one based on Betty and Barney Hill's
>experience which I think is called "The UFO Experience".  We haven't been
>able to find this one yet.
>
>Thanks
>

There is a place that has a wide variety of Audio-Video.  It is as follows:

The U.F.O. Audio-Video Clearing House
P.O. Box 342
Yucaipa, California  92399-0342
24 Hour Phone [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: NE Asteroids/Death from Above/Cylindrical Motherships
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 18:57:36 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Distribution: na
Organization: Babylon Systems
Lines: 96
Originator: jcj@tellab3
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3

1991VG is predicted to pass Earth on December 5th.  Smart money says it's
a Saturn V booster stage.

From Bruce Watson:

            EVERYTHING ARTIFICIAL IN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
            (1991VG candidates)

  112 59 MU   1 LUNA 1         USSR 02 JAN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  113 59 NU   1 PIONEER 4      US  03 MAR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
   27 60 ALP  1 PIONEER 5      US  11 MAR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
   80 61 GAM  1 VENERA 1     USSR 12 FEB     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  221 62 ALP  1 RANGER 1      US  26 JAN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  222 62 ALP  2 RANGER 1 DEBRIS      US  26 JAN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  282 62 MU   2 RANGER 4 DEBRIS      US  23 APR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  374 62 A RHO1 MARINER 2      US  27 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  375 62 A RHO2 MARINER 2 DEBRIS  US  27 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  439 62 B ETA1 RANGER 5      US  18 OCT     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  440 62 B ETA2 RANGER 5 DEBRIS   US  18 OCT     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  450 62 B NU 2 MARS 1 DEBRIS     USSR 01 NOV     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  785 64 016D   ZOND 1         USSR 02 APR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  923 64 073A   MARINER 3      US  05 NOV     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  938 64 077A   MARINER 4      US  28 NOV     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  942 64 077B   MARINER 4 DEBRIS  US  28 NOV     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
  953 64 078C   ZOND 2         USSR 30 NOV     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 1298 65 023B   RANGER 9 DEBRIS      US  21 MAR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 1393 65 048A   LUNA 6         USSR 08 JUN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 1454 65 056A   ZOND 3         USSR 18 JUL     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 1730 65 091A   VENERA 2     USSR 12 NOV     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 1736 65 091D   VENERA 2 DEBRIS     USSR 12 NOV     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 1841 65 015A   PIONEER 6      US  16 DEC     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 2130 65 027D   LUNA 10 DEBRIS      USSR 31 MAR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 2393 66 075A   PIONEER 7      US  17 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 2402 66 075C   PIONEER 7 DEBRIS  US  17 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 2845 67 060A   MARINER 5      US  14 JUN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 2846 67 060B   MARINER 5 DEBRIS  US  14 JUN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 3066 67 123A   PIONEER 8      US  13 DEC     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 3134 68 013A   ZOND 4         USSR 02 MAR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 3533 68 100A   PIONEER 9      US  08 NOV     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 3627 68 118B   APOLLO 8 DEBRIS   US  21 DEC     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 3759 69 014A   MARINER 6      US  25 FEB     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 3760 69 014B   MARINER 6 DEBRIS  US  25 FEB     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 3770 69 018B   APOLLO 9 S-4-B      US  03 MAR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 3837 69 030A   MARINER 7         US  27 MAR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 3845 69 030B   MARINER 7 DEBRIS  US  27 MAR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 3943 69 043B   APOLLO 10 DEBRIS  US  18 MAY     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 3949 69 043D   APOLLO 10 LM/ASC  US  18 MAY     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 4040 69 059B   APOLLO 11 DEBRIS  US  16 JUL     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 5267 71 051B   MARINER 9 DEBRIS  US  30 MAY     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 5861 72 012B   PIONEER 10 DEBRIS US  03 MAR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 6425 73 019B   PIONEER 11 DEBRIS US  06 APR     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 6742 73 047A   MARS 4         USSR 21 JUL     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 6776 73 053A   MARS 7         USSR 09 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 7224 73 053D   CAPSULE         USSR 09 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 6919 73 085A   MARINER 10      US  03 NOV     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 7567 74 097A   HELIUS 1     FRG  10 DEC     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 7569 74 097C   HELIUS 1 DEBRIS      US  10 DEC     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 7570 74 097D   HELIUS 1 DEBRIS      US  10 DEC     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 7947 75 054A   VENERA 10     USSR 14 JUN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 8111 75 075B   VIKING 1      US  20 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 8272 75 083B   VIKING 2      US  09 SEP     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 8582 76 003A   HELIOS 2     FRG  15 JAN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 8583 76 003B   HELIOS 2 DEBRIS      US  15 JAN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
 8584 76 003C   HELIOS 2 DEBRIS      US  15 JAN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
10272 77 076B   VOYAGER 2 DEBRIS  US  20 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
10273 77 076C   VOYAGER 2 DEBRIS  US  20 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
10321 77 064A   VOYAGER 1         US  05 SEP     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
10322 77 064B   VOYAGER 1 DEBRIS  US  05 SEP     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
10323 77 064C   VOYAGER 1 DEBRIS  US  05 SEP     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
10912 78 051B   PIONEER 12      US  20 MAY     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
11003 78 078C   PIONEER 13 DEBRIS US  08 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
11004 78 079A   ICE          US  12 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
11020 78 084A   VENERA 11     USSR 09 SEP     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
11025 78 086A    VENERA 12     USSR 14 SEP     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
12927 81 105E   VENERA 13     USSR 30 OCT     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
12938 81 110A    VENERA 14     USSR 04 NOV     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
14104 83 053A   VENERA 15     USSR 02 JUN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
15432 84 125A   VEGA 1         USSR 15 DEC     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
15447 84 125D   VEGA 1 DEBRIS     USSR 15 DEC     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
15449 84 128A   VEGA 2         USSR 21 DEC     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
15450 84 128B   VEGA 2 DEBRIS     USSR 21 DEC     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
15464 85 001A   MS-TS        JAPAN 07 JAN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
15465 85 001B   MS-TS DEBRIS    JAPAN 07 JAN     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
15875 85 056A   GIOTTO         ESA  02 JUL     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
15967 85 073A   PLANET A    JAPAN 18 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
15969 85 073C   PLANET A DEBRIS JAPAN 18 AUG     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
19281 88 058A   PHOBOS 1         USSR 07 JUL     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
19282 88 058B   PHOBOS 1 DEBRIS  USSR 07 JUL     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
19287 88 059A   PHOBOS 2         USSR 12 JUL     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
19288 88 059B   PHOBOS 2 DEBRIS  USSR 12 JUL     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT
20842 90 090B   ULYSSES          US  06 OCT     HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT

Ephemerides on newly discovered asteroids and comets are posted weekly
in sci.astro.
--
              [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!stanford.edu!lucid.com!lucidboston!yduj
From: [e-mail] (Judy Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config
Subject: Re:  CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 20:52:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Lucid East, Sharon MA
Lines: 5
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3332 sci.physics:14953 sci.skeptic:18071 alt.config:5259


How about alt.science.bogus ?

yduJ (Judy Anderson)        [e-mail]      'yduJ' rhymes with 'fudge'
   Join the League for Programming Freedom, [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!unlinfo.unl.edu!czarbock
From: [e-mail] (carol zarbock)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: NE Asteroids/Death from Above/Cylindrical Motherships
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 21:54:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Lines: 6


Just out of curiousity, are there any bodies out there in
any of that debris from any cover ups from other nations'
space shots?

Carol
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!webo!dg-webo!tom
From: [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: CFD:  alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 23:35:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Administration)
Organization: NSDD, Data General Corp.
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5261 alt.alien.visitors:3334 sci.physics:14955 sci.skeptic:18078
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 21 Nov 91 01:06:12 GMT


>>>>> On 21 Nov 91 01:06:12 GMT, [e-mail] (Jon Noring) said:


Jon> Hello,

Jon> I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup
Jon> to discuss alternative physics theories that do not fit
Jon> mainstream views.  It will be a forum where both the proponents
Jon> and the skeptics can interact (hopefully in a civilized manner
Jon> :^) ) to discuss these theories.  I believe that it should be an
Jon> alt.* group since it will obviously be on the fringe of science.
Jon> Maybe at a future time if there is enough interest a
Jon> sci.physics.* group can be created, but for now I think it best
Jon> to stick to an alt.* group.


Jon> A proposed name is:  alt.physics   (what else?)

...

Jon> Jon Noring


Jon, I like the idea.  Go for it!  Also, I DON'T agree that
sci.skeptic replaces this, as sci.skeptic is more for bashing such
theories with science.  I'd like to have a more open atmosphere.

Tom
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!amdcad!netcomsv!noring
From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 22:15:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 49
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5263 alt.alien.visitors:3335 sci.physics:14960 sci.skeptic:18080

I'm getting close to sending out the control message to create the proposed
newsgroup.  There is strong support for its creation.  However, the name is
still giving me fits.

I won't go over the arguments by several people (and all had good, albeit
conflicting viewpoints).  However, the gist of it is that alt.science
may be too confusing and too broad;  likewise for alt.science.physics.

One solution to this dilemma is the following name:

alt.new-theories.science.physics

This name states exactly and unambiguously what I would like to see this
newsgroup for.  Though somewhat unwieldy, it is much less so than many of
the alt groups such as those in the alt.binaries hierarchy.  It is also
hierarchical so that one could create at some future date, if desired,
alt.new-theories.science.chemistry.  It would also allow someone to create
alt.new-theories.* -  for example:  alt.new-theories.history (I don't
personally have an interest in such a newsgroup, I just cite it as an
example.)

I tentatively plan to create alt.new-theories.science.physics on or after
next Tuesday.  Please let me know what you think by then.  If you have a
compelling argument as to why it should not be named that, I will postpone
its creation for further discussion.  Otherwise, it will be created.  Get
your new theories lined up and ready to post!

BTW, I appreciate everybody's input so far.

Have a happy Thanksgiving!

Jon Noring


(BTW, I might not be able to create the newsgroup from netcom for one
of two reasons:  1) Bob Rieger, who operates netcom, might not give me
permission to do so, and/or  2) netcom's news software might not allow
it.  Thus, I'd like to ask for volunteers out there who would be willing
to create the newsgroup for me when the time comes.)
--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 754 Catalina Drive  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 04:44:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 14
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3336 alt.conspiracy:8988 sci.skeptic:18084

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Niall Graham) writes:
>
>Has any *reasonable* explanation for the Gulf Breeze sightings
>been proposed yet?

I heard a while ago that the government was testing a new kind of small,
remotely-piloted helicopter somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico area.  Sorry I
don't have the details handy.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re:  CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 04:50:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3337 alt.config:5268

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Frank T Lofaro) writes:
>
>    Will somebody *please* just newgroup alt.science.physics (I now think
>that is a better name than alt.physics), instead of talking about it?
>This is *ALT*, for goodness sakes!

I agree we need the group, but we really should agree on a name first!    It
would be uncool to have lots of groups running around.    In the
comp.sys.amiga hierarchy (where you're supposed to follow procedure) we're
still trying to flush out garbage like c.s.a.datacom (the real one has two
m's), c.s.a.emulation (the real one has an s on the end), c.s.a.unix (the
real one is comp.unix.amiga), etc, all because someone newgrouped them as
soon as they were proposed!

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: that UFO gif
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Nov 91 04:50:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>not really too incredibly impressive.

I've never seen one that is.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!milton!sumax!polari!rwing!eskimo!nanook
From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Summary: Venus != UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 91 22:05:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3339 alt.conspiracy:9007 sci.skeptic:18099

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
>
> The description doesn't say anything about the weather. Planets may disappear
> behind clouds you don't see because of darkness, and Venus can be visible when
> there are no stars.

     The description did however describe the object as RED, dimming
occasionally and coming closer, then blinking to green, and a brilliant white
and dissappearing.

     I don't see what the weather or Venus has to do with this.  I have seen
Venus many times.  It appears to me as almost white, maybe slightly yellowish
very bright, larger than a star, and it has never turned red, green, blinked,
or come visibly closer to me.  I fail to see how this persons observation can
be explained as Venus.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 91 04:19:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
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Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5279 alt.alien.visitors:3340 sci.physics:14976 sci.skeptic:18103

In article <[e-mail]
>, [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:>
> One solution to this dilemma is the following name:
>
> alt.new-theories.science.physics

> I tentatively plan to create alt.new-theories.science.physics on or after
> next Tuesday.  Please let me know what you think by then.  If you have a
> compelling argument as to why it should not be named that, I will postpone
> its creation for further discussion.  Otherwise, it will be created.

Well, Jon, if you recieved this after "next Tuesday" you probably already know
that the proposed name (above) is too liong for the title line. It appears to me
that the limit is about `pic x(25).'
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440
From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Delphos, Kansas - 1971?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 91 05:26:19 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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I had a request for information about the landing trace incident in
Delphos, Kansas in about 1971.  From my recollection, I remember
that this was passed off as a fungus growth on the ground which caused
the circle to form and for grass not to grow on that spot for some
time.

If anyone has any info on this, please E-Mail me some info at my
number.

I've been looking back 10 years in the MUFON Journal and other books
but haven't found anything on it.

Thanks,

Dale B. Wedge, Co SySop
Cleveland Free-Net
UFOlogy Sig
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 91 05:58:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <epeterso.691266128@parity>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
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In article <epeterso.691266128@parity> [e-mail] (Eric Peterson) writes:
>
>In the history of the alt.* hierarchy, nobody in alt.config seems to have
>remembered that there IS a group in the alt.* hierarchy for such discussions:
>alt.paranormal.

Personally I'd like to see attempts at putting the paranormal into hard
science have their own group.  I'm not against the discussion of paranormal
phenomena in their own framework, but I'd like to be able to be selective
in what I receive since I'm getting news long-distance.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Cylindrical UFO  WAS: Re: Don Ecker
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 91 06:08:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dennis Lemon) writes:
>
>Let's discuss this.  Does anyone know any information about large
>cylindrical ships which are used for interplanetary transport?
>
>I attended a lecture by Gene Roddenbury (yes, Star Trek) back in the
>mid-1970s.  He described a cylindrical ship in his discussion as being
>similar to what we use aircraft carriers for - ferrying smaller UFOs
>around.

Interesting, I didn't know he was into UFOs.

Anyway, apparently people used to see large cigar-shaped UFOs.    (Maybe they
still do, but they were never as common as the saucers.)  These were called
"mother ships" because they were said to carry saucers around.  Indeed it
does make sense, using a large ship to haul a group of planetary vehicles
between planets.  (Until Lazar said the saucers had warp capability,
anyway! :-)

Getting back to the Phobos probe picture, however, I remember in some early
rumors (before anyone had seen the picture) it was called a "missile".  In
case anyone didn't know, the Phobos probe died abruptly -- allegedly very
soon after that picture was taken.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config
Subject: Re:   CFD: alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 91 06:16:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3344 sci.physics:14978 sci.skeptic:18105 alt.config:5281

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Judy Anderson) writes:
>
>How about alt.science.bogus ?

Let me guess, you're from sci.skeptic, right?  It's unthinking abuse like
that that makes the group, whatever it ends up being called, all the more
necessary!  This is the same sort of comment that was being posted in
sci.skeptic at about the time alt.paranormal was created.

How can you possibly say whether something is bogus when you don't even
know what it is?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Nov 91 06:28:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 30
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5282 alt.alien.visitors:3345 sci.physics:14979 sci.skeptic:18106

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
>
>One solution to this dilemma is the following name:
>
>alt.new-theories.science.physics
>
>This name states exactly and unambiguously what I would like to see this
>newsgroup for.  Though somewhat unwieldy, it is much less so than many of
>the alt groups such as those in the alt.binaries hierarchy.  It is also

I haven't seen the alt.binaries hierarchy, but I can't imagine anything
more unwieldly than alt.new-theories.science.physics.  If you're set on
restricting it to physics for now, how about

    alt.new-theories.physics

which at least puts it under the 30-character name limit in AmigaDOS.  (The
most commonly-used (as far as I know) Usenet software for the Ami doesn't
store news in hierarchical directories, but in directories named for the
full name of the group.  I asked the author to fix it once, but nothing has
been done so far.)  I hope to receive the group, if my feed site receives
it and if flaming doesn't make the traffic level unbearable.  I don't see
the wisdom in going mega-hierarchical and shoving "science" into the name
at this point.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: SOMETHING HUGE!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 91 04:23:37 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 13

Dusty Garza ([e-mail]) recently posted something to the effect
that major evidence of government involvement with UFOs would be revealed
at a convention next month.  Unfortunately, I've heard a bad rumor on
Paranet.  It's unconfirmed, but apparently Wendelle Stevens was recently
interrogated by the FBI and as a result his surprise guest, who works at
Area 51 or thereabouts, has gone into hiding.  A videotape will be shown in
his place, but I don't know what it concerns.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cooper changes his story AGAIN
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 91 04:28:35 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 12

While publicising his theory that JFK was shot by his driver, Bill Cooper
recently stated that the whole alien scenario outlined by him was just a
government plot to get people to rally behind a one-world government.  HE
DENIED BEING THE AUTHOR OF ALL THE TEXT FILES WRITTEN AND UPLOADED IN HIS
NAME.  I guess that about wraps it up for Cooper, as if there was still
much doubt.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!van-bc!ubc-cs!unixg.ubc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!alberta!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Encounters from the Unknown
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 91 10:04:57 GMT
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 14

Yesterday, I was just turning on the TV to search for E.T. the movie
(wooopeee) and I stumbled upon the beginning of a show called 'Encounters
from the Unknown'.  I ended up watching it.  What followed were 3 stories
from various people.  Quite interesting, especially the first one where
the guy actually walks inside the spacecraft.  I recorded it on tape too.

Did anybody else catch this show?  I think it could be a weekly show,
I'll check my Saturday's TV guide and find out.

Gary

--- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: [e-mail]
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: starting UFO magazine.!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 91 21:54:23 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
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Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

you bunch of fucking geeks   get some sun you mint green-skinned bastards
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!cuuxb!tellab5!vpnet!lisbon
From: [e-mail] (Gerry Swetsky)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 91 17:03:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vpnet Public Access
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Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5286 alt.alien.visitors:3350 sci.physics:14994 sci.skeptic:18123

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]

>> I tentatively plan to create alt.new-theories.science.physics on or after
>> next Tuesday.

>Well, Jon, if you recieved this after "next Tuesday" you probably already know
>that the proposed name (above) is too liong for the title line. It appears to me
>that the limit is about `pic x(25).'

    Let's see......

    #1 alt.new-theories.science.physics (32 characters)
    #2 alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.blondes (37 characters)

    Nope, can't nuke him on those grounds.

    Someone find a different reason why he shouldn't create this
    proposed new group - PLEASE!  I vote NO.

--
============================================================================
| Help stamp out stupid .signature files!           Gerry Swetsky  WB9EBO  |
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| Home [phone]       vpnet [phone]      [e-mail] |
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From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Something Huge!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 91 17:13:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 9:1012/3.0 - <ParaNet ALPH, Los Angeles CA
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Dale:

My Tandy 3000 ate the big one! No longer have your phone or address. Call me
at your first opportunity so I can get those from you. Say hi to Gretch and
the kids.


Don

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Don Ecker
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Nov 91 17:00:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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Robert Sutton said:

 > Well Larry said something to the effect"I'd like to do more on this"I
 > hope that indeed thier's more on this in particular the photos claiming
 > to show an ETOI spaceship taken by a Phobos craft 1 of which Don Ecker
 > held up.He said he had got it at a Tucson UFO conference & the object
 > in question was estimatedto be 25km long.

Bob what I said was I "met" Marina Popovich there, I did not see the photo
until she recieved a copy covertly from Cosmonaut Leonov later when she
returned to the USSR. It is an infrared image their Phobos II craft sent back
to earth just before the craft disapeared.

 > Questions that came immediately to mind include.
 > 1/Who exactly is Dr Popovich.

She is retired Col. Marina Popovich, of the Red Air Force. Often touted as the
Russian Chuck Yeager, who set over 100 world aviation records, wife of General
Paval Popovich, the first Russian and human to rendezvous with another space
craft in space. Oh, btw, those 100 world records? 90 are still standing. She
brought the photo back in June on another visit here. When I broke the story
back in May ( coming out in Omni ) I contacted a producer at NBC I know and
the story made it to Hard Copy on about May 27th.

 > 2/Why was she at the Tucson conference.

Speaking about UFOs in the USSR.


> 3/Why hadn't these photos been widely publicised before.

The Russians never released them, although they did release a photo of the
objects shadow reflected off Mars.

 > 4/How did Popovich get hold of them.

See my first answer.

 > 5/What she plans to do with them.
See above.

 > 6/Who did she get them from.
Center for Unmanned Space Flight

 > 7/Why they were available at all.

They weren't.

 > 8/What will Don Ecker do with them.

Attempt to get an impartial review of it.


 > 9/What Don Ecker hopes to do with them.

See above.

 > 10/What Don Ecker hopes others will do with them.

Examine them.
 > 11/What Don Ecker hopes will happen if nothing much else will happen
 > to them.

That after some PR the public will want to know what in the world they are or
what something like this may represent.


 > 12/What the bods at NASA think of them.

Already talked to some of them and got several horse laughs.


 > 13/Has anyone tried to make fakes identical to them.

Not to my knowledge.

 > 14/WHAT THOSE ON THIS GROUP WILL DO ABOUT IT ALL......

???????????


 > And also whats the lowdown on this UFO Video Clearinghouse & the press
 > releases on the crop circles that received no replies?

The UFO Clearinghouse may be reached at 714-795-3361. As to the Press Releases
that UFO Magazine sent out ( AP, UPI, City News Desk, CNN, Larry King Live,
Reuters, ) explaining that those two gentlemen would have been hard pressed to
do approx. 1000 circles last year by themselves, especially the circles that
appeared under the nose of researchers "overnight", while the fields were
under observation, because for example, if the figure of a low end of 1000
circles is correct, these two old gezzers would have had to make about 11 and
one half circles each night, during the growing season, over about a 3 month
period. That is 11 1/2 circles EACH night for around 90 days. Does not seem
possible.

Don Ecker
Director Research
UFO Magazine
818-951-1250

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (kenton yee)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: How about alt.junk.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 91 02:00:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973
Lines: 8
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5289 alt.alien.visitors:3353 sci.physics:15007 sci.skeptic:18133

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Swetsky) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]
>>> I tentatively plan to create alt.new-theories.science.physics on or after
>    Someone find a different reason why he shouldn't create this
>    proposed new group - PLEASE!  I vote NO.

  Isn't all this already covered in alt.junk or alt.trash?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Something Huge!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 91 03:35:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 66


 > Well, we've been hearing about this for 44 years and I'm still waiting.
 > I can recall a few years ago that the "Smoking Gun" was going to come
 > out.  I was one of the first to hear about the "MJ-12" documentation
 > from
 > Jim Spieser.  I think all will agree that this was one of the greatest
 > hoaxes given out, not by Jim, but by those involved in the
 > documentation.

Perhaps.  However, the MJ-12 scenario cannot be so easily swept under the rug
and fully discounted as a hoax, at least in the sense of what we might think
of as a hoax.  The documents contain some very interesting information that
has later developed to be accurate.  For example, the Donald Menzel
connection.  For years it was believed that Donald Menzel was simply a
"debunker."  Friedman uncovered the "other side" of Donald Menzel during his
research into MJ-12 and startled the UFO community with the fact that Menzel
was involved in the NSA and intelligence work going all the way back to the
late 30s during his Navy days.  What is interesting is that his name appeared
on the MJ-12 documents long before anyone knew this.  Yes, it is a matter of
public record, but it was not something that would have stood out in sharp
contrast unless someone was specifically looking for it.  Just the mere fact
that this information is contained in the MJ-12 documents indicates the level
of the person who authored those documents, if they are fake.  As we know, all
disinformation contains some truth.  As these documents indicate, there is
either a sophisticated effort by some "agency" to have us believe them or they
are real.  I have to take the first choice rather than the latter until we are
able to get more information on them.

 > They sure were made instant celebrities (Moore, Shandera, Friedman).
 >
 > Then F.U.F.O.R. gave Friedman, a man with an interest on this, a grant
 > for
 > $16,000 to prove what he had been expousing.  Well, I have pictures of
 > the
 > Lake Erie Monster, so give me only $10,000 and I'll support my own
 > conclu-
 > sions.
 >
 > It's time to give grants to people who are critical thinkers and those
 > who
 > have a regard for Occam's Razor instead of going around in circles and
 > perpetuating such mish mash.

I think that Stan has done a very thorough job in his research.  At least the
materials that he has provided me with indicate that he has done his job very
well.  I know from experience that this takes money.  What is your opinion of
his work?

 > The next big flap will occur when the government starts experimenting
 > with
 > an aircraft that they don't want the public to know about.

Or, that will be a diversion to keep us busy while the real thing is going on.

 > Again Mike, tangible - read my lips - T A N G I B L E  P R O O F is what
 > is required.  Something that I can hold in my hand that Phil Klass can't
 > explain.

I fully agree, but remember, Klass would still dispute tangible proof.  :-)

Mike

--
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cooper Changes His Story Again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 91 03:38:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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 > While publicising his theory that JFK was shot by his driver, Bill
 > Cooper
 > recently stated that the whole alien scenario outlined by him was just a
 > government plot to get people to rally behind a one-world government.
 > HE
 > DENIED BEING THE AUTHOR OF ALL THE TEXT FILES WRITTEN AND UPLOADED IN
 > HIS
 > NAME.  I guess that about wraps it up for Cooper, as if there was still
 > much doubt.

That is consistent with his behavior.  He has changed in mid-stream before,
using that very same excuse.

Mike

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From: [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Krill File
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 91 11:21:45 GMT
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 8

I read the Krill File, it was very interesting.  Is this document legit
or should I just ignore it?

Gary

--- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: [e-mail]
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 91 15:58:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
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Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5292 alt.alien.visitors:3357 sci.physics:15020 sci.skeptic:18144

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Swetsky) writes:
>
>    Someone find a different reason why he shouldn't create this
>    proposed new group - PLEASE!  I vote NO.

Well, the name is longer than the 30-character directory name limit in
AmigaDOS (not my fault!);

BUT:  I think we DO need the group, and besides you don't need to have a
vote to create an alt group.  Plus, you can't vote by news anyway.

You're the first person I've seen posting an article against it.  Would you
like to explain why?  Or maybe we should just call it alt.galileo or
something?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: Krill File
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 91 20:08:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3358 talk.bizarre:45866

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson) writes:
>I read the Krill File, it was very interesting.  Is this document legit
>or should I just ignore it?

You could put it in your newsreader's krillfile.  Sorry, I had to say
it.

(This is cross-posted from alt.alien.visitors to talk.bizarre so that
the Krill will see it;  that's the only newsgroup that I'm sure they
read.)  What do YOU think, Krill?  Was the Krill file for real?

                            -- K.


--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         (specialty: logos & corporate
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]      identities) and type designer.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!mcollinson
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <422800007@peg>
Date: 2 Dec 91 00:10:00 GMT
Lines: 7
Nf-ID: #N:peg:422800007:000:317
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!mcollinson    Dec  1 20:10:00 1991


/* Written  6:49 am  Nov 29, 1991 by E59401 in peg:sci.astro */
/* ---------- "Unknown object ?" ---------- */

 Nowadays (27/11/91) on newspaper I've read that an unknown object is
approaching to the Earth. And it was written that this object was obseved
by NASA. I just want to know that this news is true or not ?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!darcy
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <422800008@peg>
Date: 2 Dec 91 01:23:00 GMT
References: <422800007@peg>
Lines: 2
Nf-ID: #R:peg:422800007:peg:422800008:000:34
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!darcy    Dec  1 21:23:00 1991


Which newspaper ? In which city ?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!halcyon!ralphs
From: [e-mail] (Ralph Sims)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 91 08:13:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Ralph Sims)
Organization: The 23:00 News and Mail Service
Lines: 8
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5300 alt.alien.visitors:3361 sci.physics:15031 sci.skeptic:18165

[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:

> You're the first person I've seen posting an article against it.  Would you
> like to explain why?  Or maybe we should just call it alt.galileo or
> something?

I've sent mail to the fellow proposing the group.  alt.sci already exists.
Use it to hang .physics.new-stuff on.  Keep things simple.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 91 00:58:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5301 alt.alien.visitors:3362 sci.physics:15032 sci.skeptic:18170

In article <[e-mail]>,
 [e-mail] (Gerry Swetsky) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>
 [e-mail]  (Big Al) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail] writes:
>>> I tentatively plan to create alt.new-theories.science.physics ...
>>......the proposed name (above) is too long for the title line.
>> It appears to me that the limit is about `pic x(25).'
>
>     Let's see......
>
>     #1 alt.new-theories.science.physics (32 characters)
>     #2 alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.blondes (37 characters)
>
>     Nope, can't nuke him on those grounds.
>
Gerry, What I said was the name is too long for THE TITLE LINE:
GROUP: <......group name.......> ITEM 99999 (Current Item Range #99999 - #99999)
       ----------25-------------
This is the case for many existing group names,
 e.g. comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives which truncates the current item range on
any 80 character VDU. Jim Schaeffer also noted this on his amiga.

Poor net controls?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!anachem
From: [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 91 15:16:22 GMT
References: <422800007@peg>
Organization: Indiana University
Lines: 63

In article <422800007@peg> [e-mail] writes:
>
>/* Written  6:49 am  Nov 29, 1991 by E59401 in peg:sci.astro */
>/* ---------- "Unknown object ?" ---------- */
>
> Nowadays (27/11/91) on newspaper I've read that an unknown object is
>approaching to the Earth. And it was written that this object was obseved
>by NASA. I just want to know that this news is true or not ?

    I've heard Evangelical christians (esp TeeVee variety) refer
    to an approaching object more than a few times. I think that
    they probably believe it is Christ zooming in from heaven, (and,
    if a reality at all, not AntiChrist who will come in wonders
    and aerial illusions). Of course this object is not a dark
    asteroid, but lightbearing or it wouldn't have "been seen" by
    astronomers (if it has been?).

    Perhaps its time to repost the fact (and the article which was
    the 4th post on this group) that the aerial realm is the place
    of activity of the fallen Lucifer (the light bearer) and those
    angels who fell with him (demons). Their tools are falsehood
    and illusion. The Fathers of the early Christian Church warned
    that it was not a good idea to look often or with imaginary
    wondering at the heavens, as it is possible to become victim to
    the lying wonders of the aerial beings.

    UFOs are real phenomena. But they are a phenomena of the
    creation of the illusory powers of the father of lies. Before
    the space age, UFOs were not spacecraft - this is a product of
    the paradigm of our age. The demonic beings (who occupy the
    UFOs) are however very similar to the demonic archetypes of the
    past. The effects on people are good evidence of the nature of
    these beings.

    For your own sakes, give up your fantasies and believe that
    these manifestations are nothing new, but simply a continuation
    of the demonic manifestations which were easily understood by
    our forebears who had a simple "unsophisticated" belief in evil.

    That these manifestations are increasing in frequency is
    a sign of our times and the foolishness of men who reject the
    wisdom of the past.

    The article "UFOs, a Shattering Assault" is available on
    request. See also a very lengthy discussion of the history and
    categorization of CEs in "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the
    Future".

    Based on what I have been able to gather, this object that is
    approaching should arrive on about Christmas 1992. The great
    "Peace on Earth" accompanying this advent will cause most of you
    to worship the being that arrives.

    I don't at all recommend drugs!, but I think my experience in
    the 60s with hallucinogens gives me a much better understanding
    of the reality of illusions, their power, their effects, and the
    shaping of new realities for the participant. Illusion is (in a
    limited sense) reality. It is the reality of delusion, and we
    all suffer its influence over us by the fallen nature of our very
    existance. Knowing this, it is easier to make sense of UFOs and
    also to not fall victim to the much more seductive illusions to
    come.

Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 91 15:00:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Babylon Systems
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3364 alt.conspiracy:9069 sci.skeptic:18175
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Dinse) writes:
>...  I have seen Venus many times.  It appears to me as almost white,
>maybe slightly yellowish very bright, larger than a star, and it has never
>turned red, green, blinked, or come visibly closer to me...

Take a look at it when it's just rising or setting.  Although planets
shine with a steady light, they can scintillate just like point sources
if observed through a fair amount of convection.
--
              [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!ukma!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 91 16:36:22 GMT
References: <422800007@peg> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 71

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) says:
>
>        I've heard Evangelical christians (esp TeeVee variety) refer
>        to an approaching object more than a few times. I think that
>        they probably believe it is Christ zooming in from heaven, (and,
>        if a reality at all, not AntiChrist who will come in wonders
>        and aerial illusions). Of course this object is not a dark
>        asteroid, but lightbearing or it wouldn't have "been seen" by
>        astronomers (if it has been?).

Can we say "reflected light from the sun"?  I thought we could...

>        Perhaps its time to repost the fact (and the article which was
>        the 4th post on this group) that the aerial realm is the place
>        of activity of the fallen Lucifer (the light bearer) and those
>        angels who fell with him (demons). Their tools are falsehood
>        and illusion. The Fathers of the early Christian Church warned
>        that it was not a good idea to look often or with imaginary
>        wondering at the heavens, as it is possible to become victim to
>        the lying wonders of the aerial beings.

Quite right!  Look what happened to Copernicus and Galileo!  If only
they'd listened...

>        UFOs are real phenomena. But they are a phenomena of the
>        creation of the illusory powers of the father of lies. Before
>        the space age, UFOs were not spacecraft - this is a product of
>        the paradigm of our age. The demonic beings (who occupy the
>        UFOs) are however very similar to the demonic archetypes of the
>        past. The effects on people are good evidence of the nature of
>        these beings.

Fanatic religious fervor is a real phenomena. The demonic beings who
demand we send them our money so they can buy gold sparkplugs for their
BMWs are a paradigm of our age.  The effects they have on people are
good evidence for the nature of these beings.

>        For your own sakes, give up your fantasies and believe that
>        these manifestations are nothing new, but simply a continuation
>        of the demonic manifestations which were easily understood by
>        our forebears who had a simple "unsophisticated" belief in evil.
               :
So that's what the story of Goldilocks was all about!  Oops, there were
only three bears, the mystery continues...

>        That these manifestations are increasing in frequency is
>        a sign of our times and the foolishness of men who reject the
>        wisdom of the past.

Prevent cancer, bring back the plague!  Indulgences are papal too!
My great-great-great-great-great-great-...-great grandmother went on
the children's crusade and all she got me was this lousy burnoose!

>        The article "UFOs, a Shattering Assault" is available on
>        request. See also a very lengthy discussion of the history and
>        categorization of CEs in "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the
>        Future".

The article "Religious Loonies: God's secret agents or Satan's jesters"
is available on request.

>        Based on what I have been able to gather, this object that is
>        approaching should arrive on about Christmas 1992. The great
>        "Peace on Earth" accompanying this advent will cause most of you
>        to worship the being that arrives.

Uh-uh!  Better head for the hills!  It'll be here in 3 days man and it
doesn't look happy!

"Do you BUUHHLEEEVE?" - Orson Scott Card
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!apple!netcomsv!noring
From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 91 17:23:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 25
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5303 alt.alien.visitors:3366 sci.physics:15040 sci.skeptic:18182

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ralph Sims) writes:
>[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>
>> You're the first person I've seen posting an article against it.  Would you
>> like to explain why?  Or maybe we should just call it alt.galileo or
>> something?
>
>I've sent mail to the fellow proposing the group.  alt.sci already exists.
>Use it to hang .physics.new-stuff on.  Keep things simple.

alt.sci does not exist at netcom.  How many other sites out there do not
have alt.sci?

Jon Noring

--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 754 Catalina Drive  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!noao!amethyst!catalina!marc
From: [e-mail] (Marc Sabb)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: IN SEARCH IN ARIZONA...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 91 19:58:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Optical Sciences Center, Tucson, AZ
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>IM SEARCHING FOR ANY GROUPS THAT TAKE UFO'S SERIOUSLY IN ARIZONA.  IF YOU KNOW
>OF ANY GROUPS PLEASE SEND ME ANYTHING YOU HAVE...


 Me too, please.



--
Marc Sabb                   INTERNET: [e-mail]
Optical Sciences Center     VOICE:(602)-621-4099
University of Arizona       Disclaimer:None
Tucson, Arizona, USA 85721  Not opinions,observations!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 91 16:30:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 81
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3368 alt.conspiracy:9080 sci.skeptic:18192

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Dinse) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
>>
>> The description doesn't say anything about the weather. Planets may disappear
>> behind clouds you don't see because of darkness, and Venus can be visible when
>> there are no stars.
>
>     The description did however describe the object as RED, dimming
>occasionally and coming closer, then blinking to green, and a brilliant white
>and dissappearing.
>
>     I don't see what the weather or Venus has to do with this.  I have seen
>Venus many times.  It appears to me as almost white, maybe slightly yellowish
>very bright, larger than a star, and it has never turned red, green, blinked,
>or come visibly closer to me.  I fail to see how this persons observation can
>be explained as Venus.

Over the years, I've seen Venus attributed to just about _every_ major UFO
sighting. So much so, that it's quite *predictable* that the skeptics will
drag it out and try and lump every sighting into the vein of "oh..it musta
been Venus..yea, that's the ticket!"

While I admit Venus is _often_ mistaken for a UFO there is nothing in these
GB reports to indicate Venus..

Consider the following recent UPDATE:

---Begin Included text------------------------------------------------------



Message #6257 - MUFONET
   Date : 24-Nov-91 12:42
   From : John Hicks
     To : all
Subject : Re: GB UFOs

 * Forwarded from "UFO"
 * Originally by Bert Close
 * Originally to John Hicks
 * Originally dated 22 Nov 1991, 19:50

John,
  MUFON investigator Gary Watson authored an article in the Nov. 15
1991 issue of the Islander (Pensacola, FL) in which he describes a UFO
sighting that took place on Nov. 5.  Of particular interest is that this time
the craft is claimed to be the same type of UFO first reported by Ed Walters
and others in 1987.  Photographs, one of which is shown, were taken by Patti
Weatherford and Ann Morrison who used a 440 mm lens and fast action 3200 ASA
film.  Watson states " the configuration of "portholes" and the very bright
bottom "power" light resembles the outlilne of the UFO that Ed Walters
described in his best selling book "The Gulf Breeze Sightings."" The photo
connected with the article shows an object that looks very much like the
"bottom" of an Ed-like craft with blobs of light above it making it look
"crown-like."

  Also in a letter to the editor of the Gulf Breeze Sentinel (Nov. 14, 1991
issue), Don Ware wrote of his concern about the lack of reporting of UFO
activity in the Sentinel since the newspaper was purchaced by Gannett over a
month ago.  He states that he believes 10 November was the 103rd sighting
recorded in GB in the past year.  He claims "the recent photographic evidence
indicates the UFOs frequenting Gulf Breeze now are type-2 craft as
photographed most clearly by Frances Walters on 26 Jan. 88.

---
 * Origin: Gourmet Delight [phone] Orlando, Fla. (1:363/29)

----End of included text------------------------------------------------------

Now *when* was the last time you ever heard of VENUS with "portholes"??

Off hand, I'd say that we have to rule out Venus as the "UFO"... :-)

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium
Keywords: any books yet?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 91 02:50:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Harwood) writes:
>By the way, did anyone see the UFO-proponent on Larry King who claimed
>that the Soviets have deep-space satellite photos of a huge cylindrical
>UFO? More fun ;-)

Yep..that "UFO-proponent" is Don Ecker, who is a contributing editor for
UFO Magazine.

Don is also available via the ParaNet echoes and the ASK_UFO echo on the BBS
side.

The deep-space photo was taken from the Soviet Phobos II probe before it
just disapeared. The particular photo he showed on Larry King wasn't even
released openly to the public; it's my understanding that he had coaxed
Marina Popovich to allow him to have the photo.

I taped the segment, which lasted all of about 12 mins. Too bad Larry King
had to keep rudely interrupting Don, because he was going to talk more on
the details of the photo. Roughly, the long cylindrical object was measured
at something like 15 km long by 5 km wide..that's pretty hefty!

The photo showed the object approaching the moonlet Phobos.

Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmm :-)


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS?
/\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!noc.near.net!mv!ctedge!djk
From: [e-mail] (SYSTEM 0PERATOR)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: OFO conference?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 91 04:39:49 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: NMS&Systems Engineering, Nashua, NH
Lines: 10

Hi: I keep hearing about a 'ufo conference' in Vegas in December or
therebouts.. Anyone have an accurate date? - I'll be going through
there right about then.

-djk

---
Daniel J. Karnes / WA6NDT - POB 7007, Nashua NH USA 03060-7007
[e-mail]  ...!DecVax!Mv!CtEdge!Djk  [e-mail]
The Cutting Edge: [phone] V.32 24 hrs. 'for TRUE hackers'
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!jabaru!tanus!bevans
From: [e-mail] (Brian Evans Esq)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Krill File
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 08:36:04 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: People-Net [tanus], Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 11

[e-mail] (Gary Stimpson) writes:
>I read the Krill File, it was very interesting.  Is this document legit
>or should I just ignore it?
>
>Gary


I would probably treat it the same way as one should treat the "MATRIX"
document.

Brian
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!jabaru!tanus!bevans
From: [e-mail] (Brian Evans Esq)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 08:36:06 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: People-Net [tanus], Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 13

[e-mail] writes:
>
>/* Written  6:49 am  Nov 29, 1991 by E59401 in peg:sci.astro */
>/* ---------- "Unknown object ?" ---------- */
>
> Nowadays (27/11/91) on newspaper I've read that an unknown object is
>approaching to the Earth. And it was written that this object was obseved
>by NASA. I just want to know that this news is true or not ?

Was that supposed to be that small asteroid the media was talking about at the
time?

Brian
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!frnkmth!bill
From: [e-mail] (bill)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 07:37:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.config
Organization: Franklin Electronic Publishers
Lines: 46
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5311 alt.alien.visitors:3373 sci.physics:15069 sci.skeptic:18204

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
: You're the first person I've seen posting an article against it.  Would you
: like to explain why?  Or maybe we should just call it alt.galileo or
: something?

What's wrong with the proposed group is that most of the science I
believe you think might belong there isn't science at all, but is
instead the most incredible mish-mash of lack of evidence, bogus
reasoning, and fake ego you've ever seen, mixed well with such
idiot rationalizations as "but they didn't believe Galileo,
either". People who put forth arguments like that have *already*
demonstrated that their "science" is horseshit; if it weren't,
they'd have a better reason why we should spend our attention on
them than that lame excuse.

To put it bluntly, if a theory can't pass muster in sci.whatever,
it isn't science in the first place. (Though, passing muster
there doesn't automatically make it science, either.)

True, there's an awful lot of ideology and closed-mindedness in
the scientific establishment, but the net isn't run by that
establishment. There's no one here who will suppress your message
by refusing to publish it and no censorship, either.

On the other hand, there isn't any reason why anyone should pay
attention to you. If you want something "scientific" and want
those of us who know something about science to pay you any
attention, then you have to follow the rules of science. This
means things like controlled, publicly described, and
reproducible experiments, and the other methods that the human
race has developed over its history to weed out the fancy from
the fact. But if you have followed those rules, then you *do*
belong in the sci hierarchy, not in some
alt.new-theories.science.physics ghetto.

On the other hand, it may be that you aren't really interested in
science, but in what might be called "cult science". Think of
dianetics, parapsychology, the Dean drive, UFOlogy, much of what
some people think of cold fusion, and other such things, which are
better characterized by their sociology than by anything else. If
what you want is a newsgroup where fringe science groupies can
exchange their fuzzy-minded beliefs, that's fine, but please
don't pretend that the content of the newsgroup will have
anything to do with science.

Followups have been directed to alt.config.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Krill File
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 10:43:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Brian Evans Esq) writes:
> [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson) writes:
>>I read the Krill File, it was very interesting.  Is this document legit
>>or should I just ignore it?
>>
>>Gary
>
>
> I would probably treat it the same way as one should treat the "MATRIX"
> document.
>
> Brian

    ... or the "Cleon" portfolio.

jason
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO's and UFO magazines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 11:56:52 GMT
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 22

A while back, some guy posted a message saying we should all quit this
UFO investigating, and get back to reality.  Why?  This is reality!
Things are happening and we shouldn't just sit still and let them FLY by.
Strange things are happening in our skys, people are being abducted, and
the goverments are hiding something (we all know that).  We deserve to
know what's going on in our lands!  What do you think?  I probably sound
a bit too wild (maybe?), but you all know there's something going on.
Continue searching, the truth will come out sooner of later.

Anyways, anybody got any good UFO magazines they could recommend to me?
I don't want a magazine that's filled with spirtual New Age stuff, none
of that.  Just something with good solid concrete articals.

Thanks people!

Gary

PS: Do you think big brother reads this newsgroup?  BOO!  =:)

--- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: [e-mail]
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!unlimvis
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Stan Deyo and UFOs Video available
Message-ID: <422800009@peg>
Date: 3 Dec 91 19:09:00 GMT
Lines: 53
Nf-ID: #N:peg:422800009:000:2391
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!unlimvis    Dec  3 15:09:00 1991


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Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!faatcrl!cciolori
From: [e-mail] (cciolori)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 16:00:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City NJ
Lines: 33

[e-mail] (Gary Stimpson) writes:

>A while back, some guy posted a message saying we should all quit this
>UFO investigating, and get back to reality.  Why?  This is reality!
>Things are happening and we shouldn't just sit still and let them FLY by.
>Strange things are happening in our skys, people are being abducted, and
>the goverments are hiding something (we all know that).  We deserve to
>know what's going on in our lands!  What do you think?  I probably sound
>a bit too wild (maybe?), but you all know there's something going on.

    Maybe you should have posted this to alt.paranoid.

    Why is it that the descriptions of most aliens seem to look
    just like the fictional creatures in "Close Encounters" ?

    Why does every UFO sighting have to be part of some government
    conspiracy?

    How come the only people who ever see these alleged UFOs are
    hick farmers that look like they are from the movie "Deliverance" ?

    Why does every allegedly abducted(via aliens) person say that the
    creatures that took them away did medical experiments on them?

    Just once, couldn't some aliens come to Earth, land in a populated
    area, introduce themselves, and then go out and watch football and
    drink beer?

    How could Dan Quayle have gotten to be vice-president?

>PS: Do you think big brother reads this newsgroup?  BOO!  =:)

    MY big brother does.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 16:59:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 62

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (cciolori) writes:

    (me) First, let me make clear that I do NOT agree (as I've
shown previously) with the fuzzy new-age mysticism that often flies about
thick and fast in this group. That said, I have to correct some wrong
impressions here...

>    Why is it that the descriptions of most aliens seem to look
>    just like the fictional creatures in "Close Encounters" ?

    Wrong order, my friend. J. Allen Hynek was one of the advisors
for CE3K, and Spielberg's alien designs were done from the drawings and
descriptions of a large number of people; they represent one of the major
classes of "aliens" seen by witnesses in Close Encounters of the Third
Kind (the classification, not the movie; Hynek, in fact, was the one who
invented the classification, where First Kind is that the object approaches
you closely [~500 feet]; the Second Kind leaves physical signs of its arrival
[burnt branches, landing pad marks, etc], and the Third Kind allows viewing
of apparent occupants of the alleged craft.)
    And the description of "occupants" is not limited to the CE3K sort;
those reported range from the Flatwoods Monster to Valee's "hairy dwarfs".
And to some types not easily classifiable.

>    Why does every UFO sighting have to be part of some government
>    conspiracy?

    It doesn't. Though I admit that the babblings on this group could
lead you to that conclusion.

>    How come the only people who ever see these alleged UFOs are
>    hick farmers that look like they are from the movie "Deliverance" ?

    They don't. I have seen a UFO. I know quite a few people who have
seen them. Many of those who have seen Unidentified Flying Objects are
well-respected, educated professionals. I PERSONALLY know of a trained
Air Force weapons specialist, an Army Intelligence officer, a medical
research scientist, a physicist, an astronomer, and other highly educated
people who have seen UFOs. The number of UFO sightings in the US is in the
multiple millions. Discounting the vast majority as mistakes or wishful
thinking STILL leaves a HELL of a lot that were seen by trained, professional
observers. I happen to be an amateur astronomer myself, as well as a
technophile, so I KNOW that what I saw was neither any atmospheric or
astronomical phenomenon, nor any device that could be built by any technology
*I* have ever heard of.

>    Why does every allegedly abducted(via aliens) person say that the
>    creatures that took them away did medical experiments on them?

    They don't. That just seems to be the fashion in the fuzzy contactee
groups. The first incidents of this were Barney and Betty Hill, I believe.
Other contact-related activity has been reported many times, ranging from
simple sign-language talking, to sexual activity (no, I don't believe that,
but I'll add it as a reported action), to the besieging of a house.
    You seem to have garnered your knowledge of the UFO field by
reading this group. Bad move. Try some of the better stuff in the field,
especially J. Allen Hynek's _The UFO Experience_ and Jaques Vallee's
_The Humanoids_.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!slxsys!ibmpcug!mantis!mathew
From: [e-mail] (VALIS)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 12:12:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5314 alt.alien.visitors:3379 sci.physics:15081 sci.skeptic:18217

[e-mail] writes:
> Gerry, What I said was the name is too long for THE TITLE LINE:
> GROUP: <......group name.......> ITEM 99999 (Current Item Range #99999 - #999
>        ----------25-------------
> This is the case for many existing group names,
>  e.g. comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives which truncates the current item range on
> any 80 character VDU. Jim Schaeffer also noted this on his amiga.

Here's a bijou clue-ette:

Most of the people on Usenet are probably not running the same newsreading
software as you.  If your software has trouble with the overall length of
newsgroup names, I suggest you get it fixed.  All the software I use copes
with group names of well over 40 characters with no problem, on an
80-characters-per-line VDU.

> Poor net controls?

No, poor software.  I suggest you fix it, as the rest of the net is not
going to rename groups to suit you.

Go and read news.announce.newusers.


mathew

--
Another would-be Mac owner put off by Apple's monopolistic practices.
Message to Kodak: Bring back Dan Bredy!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!milton!sumax!halcyon!ralphs
From: [e-mail] (Ralph Sims)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 17:03:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Ralph Sims)
Organization: The 23:00 News and Mail Service
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5315 alt.alien.visitors:3380 sci.physics:15082 sci.skeptic:18218

[e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:

> alt.sci does not exist at netcom.  How many other sites out there do not
> have alt.sci?

The single newsgroup is alt.sci.astro.fits (don't ask me what
the intent is).  The last post was on 27 Nov.  But the root
group is in place, and should provide a base to build on:

alt.sci.physics.u.name.it
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!vcsesu.enet.dec.com!cook
From: [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Krill File
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 19:25:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 20


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Brian Evans Esq) writes:
>> [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson) writes:
>>>I read the Krill File, it was very interesting.  Is this document legit
>>>or should I just ignore it?

    It was written by either Cooper or Lear. Some of it concurs, other
    parts are patheticly ridiculous.


+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Peter Cook                        Quoth the Raven, "Eat my
Digital Equipment Corporation                shorts, man!"
200 Forest street
Marlboro, MA. 01752        "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother,
508-467-6936            welcome to the 90's where the government's
Mystic Powers infoline:        your mother!" - Scatterbrain
508-562-9516
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 91 21:30:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <422800007@peg> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 12

[e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:
...
> The article "Religious Loonies: God's secret agents or Satan's jesters"
> is available on request.

Please send me a copy. Or better yet, please post!

Craig
--                                Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--         THEY LIVE                    Internet: [e-mail] --
--         WE SLEEP                   Austin: [e-mail] --
--                                                  VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!newstop!sun!amdcad!netcomsv!noring
From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: alt.sci.physics.new-theories >> It's Created!  Let's Post!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 00:14:18 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 76
Xref: ns-mx sci.physics:15106 sci.skeptic:18229 alt.alien.visitors:3383 alt.config:5320

Hello everybody,

After receiving a lot of valuable input (thanks everybody), I finally
felt comfortable enough to ask my sysadmin to create this newsgroup
(if you have any flames, direct them to me, not to him).

I finally named it alt.sci.physics.new-theories  .  The main reason for this
name is that it is hierarchical (though somewhat unwieldy);  it would allow
a whole range of other related and not-so-related newsgroups.  It is also
clear enough so newcomers can quickly discern what it is about.

If your site has not yet created this newsgroup, tell your sysadmin to get
going and get it created.

Below is the original charter, which nobody seemed to want to amend.


The CHARTER
***********

The purpose of alt.sci.physics.new-theories is to discuss alternative physics
theories that do not fit mainstream views.  It will be a forum where both the
proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully in a civilized manner)
to discuss these theories.

Let me cite one example as to the value of such a newsgroup.  For example,
if one has come to the conclusion that many UFO sightings are indeed caused
by extraterrestrial spacecraft (because of one's interpretation of the
available evidence), then this belief may require new theories of physics
to take into account the observed anomalous motion (not easily explained by
our current understanding of physics) and to account for how such a spacecraft
could navigate the distance from other star systems to ours in a reasonable
amount of time.  (I would not be surprised that many scientists reject the
extraterrestrial spacecraft explanation of UFO sightings precisely because
such an explanation does not fit into our current understanding of physics.)

A small list of other things that could be discussed include:

* What is gravity?  What about Sakharov's conjecture?  Is anti-gravity
  possible?
* How do Maxwell's original equations compare to some of the approximations
  that have been used (Heaviside approximation) and what are the ramifications
  to our understanding of the universe.
* Is it possible to derive energy from empty space? (There were a lot of papers
  submitted to this year's IECEC discussing this possibility, including some
  experimental evidence (which I admit is meager).  Some of these papers
  discussed alternative theories of physics).  Obviously truly fringe, but
  discussable in this newsgroup.
* Is it possible to travel from one point in space to another point in
  space faster than the speed of light (on Star Trek they do it all the
  time by warping space itself- it must therefore be possible to do! :^) ).
* Is time travel possible?
* Cold fusion theories.
* etc.

If nothing else, this newsgroup should be very interesting:  the proponents
can have a mostly friendly forum to introduce their new theories (and I guess
the skeptics can have a good laugh - careful skeptics, you may be outnumbered
in this newsgroup).

Enjoy alt.sci.physics.new-theories

Let the posts begin >>>  (I've already pointed some areas of discussion)

Jon Noring

--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 754 Catalina Drive  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 18:18:43 GMT
References: <422800007@peg> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 54

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes:
>       I've heard Evangelical christians (esp TeeVee variety) refer
>       to an approaching object more than a few times. I think that
>       they probably believe it is Christ zooming in from heaven, (and,
>       if a reality at all, not AntiChrist who will come in wonders
>       and aerial illusions). Of course this object is not a dark
>       asteroid, but lightbearing or it wouldn't have "been seen" by
>       astronomers (if it has been?).

Where are people *getting* these things?  First it was the asteroid that's
going to arrive next year (or was it SS434 or whatever that quasar was),
now it's this thing (most likely a piece of a rocket) that's going to pass
us on Thursday.

>       Perhaps its time to repost the fact (and the article which was
>       the 4th post on this group) that the aerial realm is the place
>       of activity of the fallen Lucifer (the light bearer) and those
>       angels who fell with him (demons). Their tools are falsehood
>       and illusion. The Fathers of the early Christian Church warned
>       that it was not a good idea to look often or with imaginary
>       wondering at the heavens, as it is possible to become victim to
>       the lying wonders of the aerial beings.

Not to mention the fact that if you spend enough time looking at the sky,
you'll eventually figure out that we're living on a planet orbiting the
sun and not the other way around.  For some reason the church didn't want
people to know that.

>       UFOs are real phenomena. But they are a phenomena of the
>       creation of the illusory powers of the father of lies. Before
>       the space age, UFOs were not spacecraft - this is a product of
>       the paradigm of our age. The demonic beings (who occupy the
>       UFOs) are however very similar to the demonic archetypes of the
>       past. The effects on people are good evidence of the nature of
>       these beings.

I agree that not all UFOs seem to make sense as spacecraft, and there's a
strong occult element involved sometimes, but I see no reason to extend
that to *all* UFOs, nor to speculate on a cause behind it.

>       Based on what I have been able to gather, this object that is
>       approaching should arrive on about Christmas 1992. The great
>       "Peace on Earth" accompanying this advent will cause most of you
>       to worship the being that arrives.

It should arrive on Thursday unless there's *another* object.  And why
should God or Christ suddenly be concerned with providing scientific proof
of his existence?  It certainly hasn't been a priority in the past.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 91 18:24:17 GMT
References: <422800007@peg> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes:
>>       Based on what I have been able to gather, this object that is
>>       approaching should arrive on about Christmas 1992. The great
>>       "Peace on Earth" accompanying this advent will cause most of you
>>       to worship the being that arrives.
>
>It should arrive on Thursday unless there's *another* object.  And why
>should God or Christ suddenly be concerned with providing scientific proof
>of his existence?  It certainly hasn't been a priority in the past.

OK, I goofed (a little.)  I read 1992 as 1991, and I inferred Christ
instead of Antichrist.  It doesn't blow my argument though.  Give me proof
that the asteroid is anything but an asteroid, and that I should follow
anything but my own free will.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!mcollinson
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <422800010@peg>
Date: 4 Dec 91 00:38:00 GMT
References: <422800007@peg>
Lines: 19
Nf-ID: #R:peg:422800007:peg:422800010:000:551
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!mcollinson    Dec  3 20:38:00 1991




Message 60 (25 lines)
From cdp!@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[e-mail] Tue Dec  3 03:32 EDT 1991
>From CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[e-mail]!  Mon Dec  2 05:18:09 1991 remote
fr
om cdp.igc.org
Date:         Mon, 02 Dec 91 15:09:11 TUR
From: cdp!TRMETU.BITNET!E59401
Subject:      Re: Unknown object ?
To: peg!mcollinson

   Hello,

 I've seen this report on a daily newspaper in ISTANBUL/ TURKEY..
 But now I've found a satisfactory information about that subject on
Netnews sci.astro, '1991vg' article.
                                        Thanks
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!anachem
From: [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 14:49:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Indiana University
Lines: 58

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>
>OK, I goofed (a little.)  I read 1992 as 1991, and I inferred Christ
>instead of Antichrist.  It doesn't blow my argument though.  Give me proof
>that the asteroid is anything but an asteroid, and that I should follow
>anything but my own free will.
>

    I suppose I wasn't exactly clear in my post - based on the
    misunderstandings (and some e-mail) I've seen posted.

    I can't answer your questions because I don't believe the
    TV evangeligals who are spouting this stuff. I am just a
    poor unfortunate who relishes watching the absurdities of
    Hal Lindsey's prophecies. It' snot only entertaining to me,
    but it is educational as well. I thought that maybe you
    folks would like the benefit of what I had gleaned from the
    tube.

    THEY (not me) say that there is something (a light) headed
    this way from far off (beyond the range of solar light re-
    flection). THEY seem to think that it is a harbinger of
    either the return of Christ, or of the Antichrist. I (me),
    I say that whomever it is (if I thought it were real), they,
    and by virtue of the psychological bent displayed here, many
    of you, would worship any advanced intelligence that appeared
    in wonders from the sky.

    I belong to a much older Christian Church than the ones you all
    have attacked (rightly so) because of its abuses. I do not
    take your attacks personally because I know that my Church has
    not fallen prey to the western rationalizations and errors which
    you oppose. In your western materialism however, you have failed
    to even consider the spiritual truths of the advice of the early
    fathers of the Church wrt the spiritual beings (not the material
    order of the solar system, etc...) that occupy the aerial realm.

    I see no difference between the apocalyptic visions of the
    Evangelicals and the chiliastic expressions made by many of the
    proponents of UFOs as real material phenomena. I put both
    groups in the same category - deluded. I have as support for
    my view the collective wisdom of 'true' christian experiences -
    manyof which exactly parallel the UFO-esque appearances, but are
    interpreted not as little men from space (or as leprechauns or
    nature sprites or in Germany as "smurfs" or ......) but as man-
    ifestations of demons. You may, and likely do, disagree. You may
    even say I am the one deluded, as one e-mail did, but I can read
    in the lives of saints from the earliest times about your
    "aliens" and see that for thousands of years there is self-
    consistency in the understandings of these beings. Your
    imaginings and material explanations do not have the same
    strength to me. Please allow me to have (and post) ideas con-
    trary to yours without being attacked.

    Given the limited number of pigeon-holes you all seem to be
    working with, I guess I'm not surprised which one you put me
    in. If you are going to sort people thusly, at least get more
    pigeon-holes - its a big world out there.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psgrain!onion!pail!bucket!ralex
From: [e-mail] (Randy Alexander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <ralex.691838670@bucket>
Date: 4 Dec 91 09:24:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News)
Organization: Rick's Home-Grown Un*x
Lines: 22
Nntp-Posting-Host: bucket.rain.com

[e-mail] (Brian Evans Esq) writes:

>[e-mail] writes:
>>
>>/* Written  6:49 am  Nov 29, 1991 by E59401 in peg:sci.astro */
>>/* ---------- "Unknown object ?" ---------- */
>>
>> Nowadays (27/11/91) on newspaper I've read that an unknown object is
>>approaching to the Earth. And it was written that this object was obseved
>>by NASA. I just want to know that this news is true or not ?

>Was that supposed to be that small asteroid the media was talking about at the
>time?

>Brian

I suspect so, read sci.astro.. They mentioned a 30 mile diameter asteroid
that is the smallest ever detected. They also said something about
scientists thinking it were 'man-made' at first.. If it WERE something
extra-terrestrial do you thing they would tell us?

Randy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 12:38:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 10

>     Maybe you should have posted this to alt.paranoid.

Is there an alt.paranoid?  Hmm.. maybe I'll ask my Sysop to subscribe to
it.  I guess I'd fit in very well huh?



--- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: [e-mail]
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!think.com!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 12:41:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 13

(I accidently hit 'S'ave on the last message, no way to erase or edit it)

Anyways, I can't answer all those questions you posted.  Interesting
though.  :)  Another thing I've wondered about is... WHY are people being
abducted and then having tests done on them.  If the aliens (whatever)
are so smart and advanced wouldn't they already of figured out the human
body already?  Hmmmm....

Gary

--- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: [e-mail]
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 15:53:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Organization: University of Kaiserslautern (Germany)
Lines: 42
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3391 alt.conspiracy:9118 sci.skeptic:18238

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don
Allen) writes:

[Robert Dinse's objections to my defense of someone else's interpretation of
Jimmy Carter's UFO as Venus omitted; jcj answered this one already]

>Over the years, I've seen Venus attributed to just about _every_ major UFO
>sighting. So much so, that it's quite *predictable* that the skeptics will
>drag it out and try and lump every sighting into the vein of "oh..it musta
>been Venus..yea, that's the ticket!"

They are just trying to take this possibility in account. If Venus has
nothing to do with the sighting, one will find out later. To find out if
Venus is responsible for it, someone has to think of it first.

>While I admit Venus is _often_ mistaken for a UFO there is nothing in these
>GB reports to indicate Venus..

What do you mean by 'mistaken for a UFO'? If it's unknown, and flying (you
can argue this one), it *is* an UFO!  Or are you saying 'UFO' and thinking
'spaceship'?

[included article about an UFO-with-portholes sighting, no Venus mentioned]

>Now *when* was the last time you ever heard of VENUS with "portholes"??
>
>Off hand, I'd say that we have to rule out Venus as the "UFO"... :-)

Because *this* UFO has portholes, *the other* UFO can't be Venus?
Or is it the same UFO? (I lost track of the older postings)
Or do you think that *all* UFOs have the same origin?

(I intended to make a sarcastic comment about coherent thought here,
but didn't)


-Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-
------------(thomas kettenring, kaiserslautern, germany)-----------
--The human mind is too complex to understand for the human mind,--
--or, in other words, the human mind is too simple to understand---
--------------------------the human mind.--------------------------
-Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 16:30:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) says:
>        I belong to a much older Christian Church than the ones you all
>        have attacked (rightly so) because of its abuses. I do not
>        take your attacks personally because I know that my Church has
>        not fallen prey to the western rationalizations and errors which
>        you oppose. In your western materialism however, you have failed
>        to even consider the spiritual truths of the advice of the early
>        fathers of the Church wrt the spiritual beings (not the material
>        order of the solar system, etc...) that occupy the aerial realm.

Well since the first people the Christians were mean to is the Gnostics and
since they were the only real splinter group at the time, this would imply
that you are a Gnostic.  If you are a Gnostic, you must believe what got
them all in so much trouble; that the resurrection was not a physical but a
spiritual event and that it may not have even occurred.  However, even if this
is the case, it's Christ's message, not his magic tricks that were important.

If not, then it sure sounds like you're a member of the same church many of
us love to hate.  In any event, which Church fathers do you admire?  Paul the
Womyn basher?  Tertullian the gnostic smasher?  Do tell...

>        Given the limited number of pigeon-holes you all seem to be
>        working with, I guess I'm not surprised which one you put me
>        in. If you are going to sort people thusly, at least get more
>        pigeon-holes - its a big world out there.

Oh poop, you just said you're a member of a Christian sect which isn't
corrupt like all the rest of them.  So now it behooves you to reveal
which sect this is...

Scott
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 18:49:20 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 28


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes...
>    THEY (not me) say that there is something (a light) headed
>    this way from far off (beyond the range of solar light re-
>    flection). THEY seem to think that it is a harbinger of
>    either the return of Christ, or of the Antichrist. I (me),
>    I say that whomever it is (if I thought it were real), they,
>    and by virtue of the psychological bent displayed here, many
>    of you, would worship any advanced intelligence that appeared
>    in wonders from the sky.

I think that they are mistaken... we Americans (regardless of most of our
psychological bents) are not likely to worship anything or anyone that
appeared in wonders from the sky.   Tradition holds that we tend to shoot
first and ask questions later.... but we've managed to develop a bit more
self control these days.

In my own (humble) opinion, we would walk softly and carry a big stick..
we'd talk to them, communicate with them, ... but remain armed and wary
during our dealings with them.

I think perhaps you underestimate the people of Earth.
---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 18:50:40 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 16


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson) writes...
>Another thing I've wondered about is... WHY are people being
>abducted and then having tests done on them.  If the aliens (whatever)
>are so smart and advanced wouldn't they already of figured out the human
>body already?  Hmmmm....
>
   Only explanation I can think of, Gary... is that our evolution is being
   monitored.  Now what do you suppose they are looking for?

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!vcsesu.enet.dec.com!cook
From: [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 17:47:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 24


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>
>>OK, I goofed (a little.)  I read 1992 as 1991, and I inferred Christ
>>instead of Antichrist.  It doesn't blow my argument though.  Give me proof
>>that the asteroid is anything but an asteroid, and that I should follow
>>anything but my own free will.
>>

    One scientist back-tracked it's path and has determined it is
    a booster from one of the helios probes. So much for that.

    /prc

+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Peter Cook                        Quoth the Raven, "Eat my
Digital Equipment Corporation                shorts, man!"
200 Forest street
Marlboro, MA. 01752        "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother,
508-467-6936            welcome to the 90's where the government's
Mystic Powers infoline:        your mother!" - Scatterbrain
508-562-9516
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!mobdig!rtech!ingres!kevinq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 18:03:40 GMT
References: <422800007@peg> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) rambles:

    [much stuff mercifully deltetd]

>    I don't at all recommend drugs!, but I think my experience in
>    the 60s with hallucinogens gives me a much better understanding
>    of the reality of illusions, their power, their effects, and the
>    shaping of new realities for the participant. Illusion is (in a
>    limited sense) reality. It is the reality of delusion, and we
>    all suffer its influence over us by the fallen nature of our very
>    existance. Knowing this, it is easier to make sense of UFOs and
>    also to not fall victim to the much more seductive illusions to
>    come.
>
Oh good goddess, Mark, go back to drugs and get a life!






--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!slxsys!ibmpcug!demon!news
From: [e-mail] (Codesmiths)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stan Deyo and UFOs Video a
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 12:25:12 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (C-News Owner)
Reply-To: Codesmiths <[e-mail]>
Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk
Lines: 31

In-Reply-To:  [e-mail]
> [Stuff about Tesla, Nazi UFOs & the Knight Templars deleted]
>
>
> ALSO AVAILABLE NOW - A ONE HOUR EXCLUSIVE
> VIDEO OF SECRET WWII GERMAN FLYING SAUCER
> DEVELOPMENT AND MANUFACTURE
>
> INCLUDING PROOF OF
> > 286 SAUCERS BUILT 1941-44
> > PLANS, PHOTOS OF TEST FLIGHTS
> > AND INSIGHTS INTO THE MOTIVATIONS OF THOSE
> WHO GROOMED HITLER TO BE GERMANY's "LEADER"
>
> BY EXCLUSIVE ARRANGEMENT WITH THE WORLD'S OLDEST ORDER
> OF CHIVILARY, THE KNIGHTS TEMPLAR


    As my old Gran'pappy used to say;

"Son, Never trust anyone who can't work their GODDAMN CAPS LOCK KEY"


Andy Dingley    [e-mail]    [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!mars!near
From: [e-mail] (ulvna 'n armaaten)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 01:15:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: ulvna 'n armaaten
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook) writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes...
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>>
>>>OK, I goofed (a little.)  I read 1992 as 1991, and I inferred Christ
>>>instead of Antichrist.  It doesn't blow my argument though.  Give me proof
>>>that the asteroid is anything but an asteroid, and that I should follow
>>>anything but my own free will.
>>>
>
>    One scientist back-tracked it's path and has determined it is
>    a booster from one of the helios probes. So much for that.
>

Boy, he sure screwed the pooch on that one.  Sakes alive, you deflect
one little asteroid to come back from Turkey Day down home on Venus,
and everyone blows a gasket.  Asteroids are sure a lot cheaper than
regularly scheduled flights, but you just can't rely on them.  Sometimes
there's so many to choose from you can't decide which; large ones have
enough gravity that you can catch some z's on, but they're pretty
few and far between.  The little ones can be a bit dicey, if you toss
in your sleep, you can set up a tumble that wreaks havoc on your inner
ears; well, not so much your inner ear as it is that your inner ear's
telling you you're doing one thing, and your eyes telling you you're
doing another.  Puke city, man.   But, that's the life of a college
student trying to make ends meet.  If I had more bucks, I'd just hop
a saucer with sleeping accomodations.

Hey, so tell me how my English is.  After a year, I think I've about
got it down.  Those old Bonanza reruns sure had me going for a while,
eh?  Should'a seen the way everyone looked at me when I talked like
that in the Student Union.  Yee Haw.  Well, gotta go.  Finals next
week, and then home for the Holidays.  Maybe when I get back, I
have a get together at Ken's Pancakes on El Camino.  German Babies are
mmh, mmhhhh, good.

Later daze

ulvna
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!apple!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Krill File
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 17:47:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Brian Evans Esq) writes:
>> [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson) writes:
>>>I read the Krill File, it was very interesting.  Is this document legit
>>>or should I just ignore it?
>> I would probably treat it the same way as one should treat the "MATRIX"
>> document.
>       ... or the "Cleon" portfolio.

What's that?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!apple!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  UFO's and UFO magazines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 18:03:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (cciolori) writes:
>
>       Why is it that the descriptions of most aliens seem to look
>       just like the fictional creatures in "Close Encounters" ?

Maybe the aliens in "Close Encounters" were patterned after the real thing?

>       Why does every UFO sighting have to be part of some government
>       conspiracy?

Not all of them are.

>       How come the only people who ever see these alleged UFOs are
>       hick farmers that look like they are from the movie "Deliverance" ?

I could give you counter-examples but I'm afraid they would be most of
the cases.  Are you going to make generalizations all day or do you have
something useful to say?

By the way, I notice you're with the FAA.  Don't bother telling us what you
guys think of the Hudson Valley sightings, because I'm sure we all know.
But what about the FAA spokeswoman who reported that a meteor was "flying
back and forth" over New York City?  I don't remember the date, but I'm
sure I could find it and I'm sure other people remember it.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:   How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ?  (Was alt.physics)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 91 18:07:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5339 alt.alien.visitors:3401 sci.physics:15137 sci.skeptic:18247

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ralph Sims) writes:
>The single newsgroup is alt.sci.astro.fits (don't ask me what
>the intent is).  The last post was on 27 Nov.  But the root
>group is in place, and should provide a base to build on:

If I'm not mistaken, FITS is an image data standard like GIF, TIFF, etc.  I
don't know why it would be in the alt hierarchy, but it's not because it's
off-the-wall.  Probably it's because they didn't want to go to the bother
of a vote to put it in sci.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!j0nez
From: [e-mail] (J0nez)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Summary: no_kidding!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 10:44:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: The_Watchers_In_Milwaukee
Lines: 13

No kidding (in regards to shooting first and asking questions later).
Personally, I believe it's that asteroid (see sci.astro).  But, geez,
if it's a Christ (Anti- or otherwise) I hope they cap 'im in the knee
cap, 'cuz he aint never done no favor for me (neither of 'em)!  When
_I_ have some kind of miracle miracled upon me, then I'll believe all
this religious hocus pocus....  Until then, consider me a confirmed
Atheist....  Heh....  A post for alt.atheism.  Cool...

    -John William Bowman

Replies, if any, to  ->   [e-mail]   <-

Bitchin' .sig, eh?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 14:09:58 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 17


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes...
>    strength to me. Please allow me to have (and post) ideas con-
>    trary to yours without being attacked.


        If you don't want  to be attacked then take your religious drivel
        somewhere else.  This is  the  file  to be attaked in and when it
        comes to religious clap trap I will be one of the main attackers.
        Especially self rightious puritanicle christian clap trap.

        One  of  the  pieces of drivel coming from TV Evangalists is that
        this light/city is coming out of the North from the constellation
        of of Orion.   Funny in that when I turn my telescope on Orion to
        view some of what it has to offer I have to look "SOUTH".

        Steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!kingpol!cs_a175
From: [e-mail] (Terenas S D M)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 14:59:20 GMT
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Hi all,

I just subscribed to this new group.  I'm very interested in Physics although
I'm doing Computer Science.

All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.  I heard a story
about reflection using mirrors and the time that light takes to travel from
a place to another and that seems it possible to travel in time but one needs
MANY mirros,  is this true ?

Thanks in advance,
Terenas,

            +------------------------------------------------+
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            |             |  Bart Got an Erection      |     |
            | |\/\/\/|   /   Bart Didn't Use Protection \    |
            | |      |   |   Bart Got an Infection !    |    |
            | | (o)(o)   \_   _________________________/     |
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            |  |   /              Don't be silly             |
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            | Kingston Poly   |                              |
            | London - England|   #include <disclaimer.h>    |
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From: [e-mail] (cciolori)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 16:02:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City NJ
Lines: 16

[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:


>By the way, I notice you're with the FAA.  Don't bother telling us what you
>guys think of the Hudson Valley sightings, because I'm sure we all know.

    Yeah, OK. I don't know of a single person at the FAA who has anything
    even remotely to do with UFO investigations. The FAA in a very large
    organization...maybe they do that stuff in FAA Washington.

>But what about the FAA spokeswoman who reported that a meteor was "flying
>back and forth" over New York City?  I don't remember the date, but I'm
>sure I could find it and I'm sure other people remember it.

    Like I know this guy, right? If you asked me who to talk to(at FAA) about
    UFOs, etc I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where to even start to look.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!unido!mpirbn!p515dfi
From: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 11:28:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut fuer Radioastronomie, Bonn
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson) writes:
>Anyways, anybody got any good UFO magazines they could recommend to me?
>I don't want a magazine that's filled with spirtual New Age stuff, none
>of that.  Just something with good solid concrete articals.

If you can read German, I could help you: There's a brilliant magazine in
Germany, run by the CENAP, the Center for the Research into Strange Sky
Phenomena, and called CENAP REPORT. It appears every month with sometimes
50 pages full of hot news, media clippings, field research and historical
stuff. All 'branches' of the UFO field are discussed, even fringe areas as
Crop (crap...) Circles, Abductions and so on. They also go into psychology
at times, demonstrating that the CE III stories of our times are almost
exactly the same stuff that make up the fairy tales of past centuries.
I enjoy this magazine tremendously, esp. since it's run by only two or three
people. Anyone reading this weird newsgroup with the need for more info?

And in case you're interested but cannot read German: just get a handsome
Pleiadian to channel it to you :-)
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From: [e-mail] (Gene Miller)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:
>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.

    Answer: Only forward, and only by waiting.

    (Is anything intelligent going to be discussed here?)
--
Gene Miller        Phone [phone]
[e-mail]    Fax [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Steve DiPirro)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes...
>
>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.

Depends on what you mean. You can "see" into the past merely by looking
at the night sky. You're witnessing radiation emitted in the distant past.

You can travel into the future by accelerating yourself nearly to the
speed of light. In your frame of reference, mere minutes or hours could
equate to years to those at rest with respect to you.

What's not believed to be physically possible is the travel into the past
or physically effect the past in any way. If it were possible, you could
then see something happen before it actually did happen.

------------
Steve DiPirro        [e-mail]
                     --or-- ...!decwrl!star.dec.com!dipirro
                     --or-- [e-mail]
------------
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
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Date: 5 Dec 91 19:17:21 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gene Miller) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:
>>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.
>
>    Answer: Only forward, and only by waiting.

Yes, but remember, depending on their relative velocities, some will find that
they may wait more quickly than others.  ;^)

Here is a (special) relativity quiz:

You have a pretty good atomic clock with a huge digital readout.
Your friend Joe has a similar clock.

Joe flies past you at .9C (or do you fly past Joe? - nevermind).

So, you decide to observe Joe's clock at 2 points along his flight path to
determine if his clock is running faster than yours, or yours is running
faster than his.  Joe makes the same observation of your clock as he passes
you.

What do you observe, and what does Joe observe, and why?

--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
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From: [e-mail] (JIM GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 02:57:31 GMT
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In article <ralex.691838670@bucket>, [e-mail] (Randy Alexander) writes...
>[e-mail] (Brian Evans Esq) writes:
>
>>[e-mail] writes:
>>>
>>>/* Written  6:49 am  Nov 29, 1991 by E59401 in peg:sci.astro */
>>>/* ---------- "Unknown object ?" ---------- */
>>>
>>> Nowadays (27/11/91) on newspaper I've read that an unknown object is
>>>approaching to the Earth. And it was written that this object was obseved
>>>by NASA. I just want to know that this news is true or not ?
>
>>Was that supposed to be that small asteroid the media was talking about at the
>>time?
>
>>Brian
>
>I suspect so, read sci.astro.. They mentioned a 30 mile diameter asteroid
>that is the smallest ever detected. They also said something about
>scientists thinking it were 'man-made' at first.. If it WERE something
>extra-terrestrial do you thing they would tell us?

Of course not!  In fact, they would (and I predicted this) tell us it is
a small asteroid. :-)

>Randy

Jim Graham

        -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
 ______________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail] (Stein Kulseth FBA)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
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Date: 5 Dec 91 16:13:01 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) asks:
|> All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.

Yes it is possible, in fact, we all do it - every hour of the day



+------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| Stein Kulseth                |  [e-mail]  |
| Norwegian Telecom Research   |                                      |
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From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <1991Dec5.151720.17404@anasaz>
Date: 5 Dec 91 15:17:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]>
]>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes...
]>>    THEY (not me) say that there is something (a light) headed
]>>    this way from far off (beyond the range of solar light re-
]>>    flection). THEY seem to think that it is a harbinger of
]>>    either the return of Christ, or of the Antichrist. I (me),
]>>    I say that whomever it is (if I thought it were real), they,
]>>    and by virtue of the psychological bent displayed here, many
]>>    of you, would worship any advanced intelligence that appeared
>>    in wonders from the sky.
]>
]>I think that they are mistaken... we Americans (regardless of most of our
]>psychological bents) are not likely to worship anything or anyone that
]>appeared in wonders from the sky.   Tradition holds that we tend to shoot
]>first and ask questions later.... but we've managed to develop a bit more
]>self control these days.

I don't understand this reference at all.  What tradition holds that we
shoot first and ask questions later?  Americans are known for excercising
incredible restraint. When/where did we ever "shoot first and ask questions
later?"  Americans are the good guys.  That's why, when they come, they'll
come here first.

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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From: [e-mail] (francis deck)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 20:43:49 GMT
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Yes... it's possible.  Read up on the "twin paradox."  We travel
in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we
gain or lose don't amount to much.  If the speed of light were 55
MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time
travel.

Is it possible to violate the "first signal principle," i.e.
to travel faster than light?  No.  Is it possible to revisit
the past?  No.  Is it possible to visit the future?  What
do you mean by "travel in time?"

Francis J. Deck
"c = 299792458 m/s" -- God
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From: [e-mail] (Richard H. Miller)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 20:57:07 GMT
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This is not relevant to alt.config so it is being removed from the followup.
Please be careful of your cross-posting before letting an article go.



--
Richard H. Miller                 Email: [e-mail]
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: [phone]
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030
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From: [e-mail] (John C. Baez)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:
>
>Hi all,
>
>I just subscribed to this new group.  I'm very interested in Physics although
>I'm doing Computer Science.

>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.

Yeah - just wait.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!titan!lampard
From: [e-mail] (Greg Lampard)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 22:17:05 GMT
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[e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:


>Hi all,

>I just subscribed to this new group.  I'm very interested in Physics although
>I'm doing Computer Science.

>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.  I heard a story
>about reflection using mirrors and the time that light takes to travel from
>a place to another and that seems it possible to travel in time but one needs
>MANY mirros,  is this true ?

>Thanks in advance,
>Terenas,

Sounds like a load of bovine ordure to me.  As far as Physics is
concerned, time travel is axiomatically excluded.  The only property
that time has is that it passes.  It passes at different rates for
different observers, but it always passes.

That is not to say that time travel is impossible, just that if it is,
it will require a re-write of Physics that will make quantum mechanics
and relativity look like insignificant tinkering at the edges.
Greg Lampard    [e-mail]    Telecom Australia Research Laboratories
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!amdcad!netcomsv!noring
From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: What Theories Have Been Proposed About UFO Propulsion?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 18:54:23 GMT
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Hello,

To get this newsgroup jump started, I'd like to ask about what theories
have been proposed for UFO propulsion under the assumption that many UFOs
are actual extraterrestrial spacecraft from other star systems.

1) How can they navigate the distance in a reasonable time?  Can they
   warp space, like we see in Star Trek?

2) How about their anomalous motion as seen on earth?  They seem to go
   through extreme accelerative forces.  They also seem to defy
   gravity.

Anyway, I am fairly ignorant of what has been proposed in the way of
testable theories.  And this brings me to the final inquiry as to what
experiments can be set up to verify such theories (e.g., Einstein
proposed several experiments to verify his relativity theories).

Jon Noring

--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 754 Catalina Drive  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!mks.com!fredw
From: [e-mail] (Fred Walter)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 22:51:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Gene Miller) writes:
>    (Is anything intelligent going to be discussed here?)

Not likely. The people who know what they're talking about are either writing
papers about it, making money researching it, or hanging out in the sci.*
and comp.* groups.

    fred
--
G. R. (Fred) Walter, Mortice Kern Systems Inc.,    Internet: [e-mail]
35 King Street North                UUCP: uunet!watmath!mks!fredw
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA, N2J 2W9        Phone: [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Urantia Book
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 00:28:08 GMT
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I had some interest on the Cleveland UFOlogy Sig about a book containing
information about Urantia.  I remember reading about this earlier, but
didn't think that it was important enough to download.  Since then, it
has scrolled off the bulletin board.

If anyone has saved any of this information, please upload it to me so
that I can pass it on to those who are interested in it.

Even if you did not save any of this info, mail to me on your thoughts
on the Urantia info would be appreciated.  My job is to pass on infor-
mation, not judge it.

Dale B. Wedge
Co-SySop
Cleveland Free-Net
UFOlogy Sig
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvax1!okunewck
From: [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <![e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 00:29:44 GMT
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[e-mail] (francis deck) writes:
>Yes... it's possible.  Read up on the "twin paradox."  We travel
>in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we
>gain or lose don't amount to much.  If the speed of light were 55
>MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time
>travel.

   Not quite.

   If the speed of light were 55 MPH, then the Yugo and Geo would be
terrible gas guzzlers.  Mopeds wouldn't be much better.

   The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only
appears that way.  It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero
temperature or a frequency of zero cycles per second.  The speed of
light is the maximum speed that anything can possibly go.

   As something accelerates relative to you, it gains mass and time
slows down for it.  The Yugo would weigh many kilotons, and would pass
through the speed trap with a severe discrepency between the
speedometer and the cop's radar gun.  (Yeah, just imagine the driver
trying to talk himself out of _that_ ticket.)  Meanwhile, the Geo
driver would be trying to talk himself out of a stop-light violation
because he had blue-shifted the red light to green.

   The trouble is, neither the Geo nor the Yugo will ever reach 55
(relative to the road surface) because its mass would be too great for
its dinky little three cylinder engine to accellerate any faster.

   Light travels at the maximum limit because a photon has no mass.
That's the fastest it can go, so it does.

--
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Corrupt Xref line!!  2197 --> sci.phys.skateboarding(1..0)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvax1!okunewck
From: [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <![e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 00:37:47 GMT
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   BTW, I highly recommend Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of
Time".  It explains the current theories in plain english, without a
lot of mathematical mumbo jumbo.  Not too many proofs, but if you're
willing to accept his word on things then it can be very enlightening.

   How's Professor Hawking doing these days, anyway?

--
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

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From: [e-mail] (Jim Lick)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.test
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <jim.691977242@ferkel>
Date: 5 Dec 91 23:54:02 GMT
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Hey, could you guys PLEASE learn how to edit the Newsgroups line
and get this discussion out of alt.config?

                            Jim Lick
Work: University of California    | Play: 6657 El Colegio #24
      Santa Barbara        |       Isla Vista, CA 93117-4280
      Dept. of Mechanical Engr. |    [phone] voice/msg
      2311 Engr II Building     |  "On and on and on we go, where
      [phone]            |  we're going we don't know"
      [e-mail]    |            - Lilac Time
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From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In a previous article, [e-mail] (Steve DiPirro) says:

>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes...
>>
>>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.
>
>Depends on what you mean. You can "see" into the past merely by looking
>at the night sky. You're witnessing radiation emitted in the distant past.
>
>You can travel into the future by accelerating yourself nearly to the
>speed of light. In your frame of reference, mere minutes or hours could
>equate to years to those at rest with respect to you.
>
>What's not believed to be physically possible is the travel into the past
>or physically effect the past in any way. If it were possible, you could
>then see something happen before it actually did happen.
>
>------------
>Steve DiPirro        [e-mail]
>                     --or-- ...!decwrl!star.dec.com!dipirro
>                     --or-- [e-mail]
>------------
>

You don't travel into the future by accelerating near the speed of
light.  Your clock slows down while others on the planet that you
left stays the same.  That is why you could come back after a trip
in a spacecraft near the speed of light to see an aging change.

It has been proven that people that even take plane flights age more
slowly than those that are on the ground.  Of course, this time is
not that much, but it does happen.

I think that it safe to say that space travel hasn't happened since it
would cause a paradox in time and events.  You could come back and kill
your father, then how would you exist?

Unless, if you did come back and kill your father, all events relating
to this event would be wiped from the masses, the entries into history,
and therefore you never happened, even though you exist.  Again, a
paradox.
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From: [e-mail] (J.D. Lewthwaite)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 01:20:45 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
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Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
References: <[e-mail]>

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Gene Miller):
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:
>>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.
>
>     Answer: Only forward, and only by waiting.
>
>     (Is anything intelligent going to be discussed here?)

Possibly not, but...
   I believe that I have seen - possibly in New Scientist _ an article a
couple of years back on time travel.  Apparently there are solutions to
Einstiens (sp?) equations that allow time travel, but only under extreme
circumstances.  Could anyone verify this ?
   (Or maybe I'm having too many late nights).

                        Cheerio,
                             Dave.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Don't belive anything I tell you, 'cos it's all rubbish.
Dave is... [e-mail], and proud of it.
I may be ugly, but you're drunk and... er... damn.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:    Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Dec 91 16:53:45 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes:
>
>       THEY (not me) say that there is something (a light) headed
>       this way from far off (beyond the range of solar light re-
>       flection).

That's news to me.  So far I haven't heard anything that's inconsistent
with an asteroid.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
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From: [e-mail] (Scott `The_Edge` Yanoff)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 06:29:18 GMT
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In article <![e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:
>   The trouble is, neither the Geo nor the Yugo will ever reach 55
>(relative to the road surface) because its mass would be too great for
>its dinky little three cylinder engine to accellerate any faster.


Now, if we had a Delorean that could make it to 88, that might just do it! ;)
-Scott

--
   !\   /\   _/\_  [e-mail]
  _! ! !  ! !_  _!
 ! ! !_!_ ! !    !___    MILWAUKEE,
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From: [e-mail] (Andy Wardley)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 10:34:04 GMT
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In article <![e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:

>   The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only
>appears that way.  It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero

OK, call me Mr Thicky if you like, but what happens if a hypothetical
train is travelling close to the speed of light.  If you were standing at
the back of the train and all the doors between the carriages were open,
you could run towards the front of the train and your combined velocity
relative to the ground would be greater than the speed of light. NO?

Remember that we (The human race) used to say that the Earth was flat,
man could never fly, and that no-one could travel faster that the speed
of sound.  I'm no expert on this and I'm sure that some of you may have
convincing proof that the speed of light IS the galactic speed limit,
but I reckon that one day, we may do it, and we'll all look back and
laugh at how stupid we were to say it couldn't be done.

After all, they do it on Star Trek and that's a true story isn't it?


Cheers
Andy


--
______________________________________________________________________________
_  standard disclaimer             , '                         Andy Wardley  _
_  available on request...        -o O-                 [e-mail]  _
_ "You have pleasantly              l                                        _
_  wibbled my frusset pouch"        _  "Go on Punk, make my lunch"           _
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 00:16:15 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (francis deck) writes:
>Yes... it's possible.  Read up on the "twin paradox."  We travel
>in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we
>gain or lose don't amount to much.  If the speed of light were 55
>MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time
>travel.

The twins paradox does not involve time travel, but time dilation as
one travels near the speed of light. You can get to the future slower,
but you cannot get to the past, or just jump to some point in the future.

>Is it possible to violate the "first signal principle," i.e.
>to travel faster than light?  No.  Is it possible to revisit
>the past?  No.  Is it possible to visit the future?  What
>do you mean by "travel in time?"
>
>Francis J. Deck
>"c = 299792458 m/s" -- God

Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Charles R. Tenney)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gene Miller) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:
>>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.
>
>    Answer: Only forward, and only by waiting.

Actually, I remember hearing that some serious theoretical physicist (I
seem to remember an association with Wheeler, but could be wrong) had
actually worked out a scenario for time-reversal in the presence of a very
large rotating mass.  The math was done for an infinitely long cylinder of
extremely high density.  This caused a bit of speculation about whether it
was something that could show up in the vicinity of a pulsar.

The mirror thing sounds sort of like one of those brain teasers, like "I
can prove you're not here:"  [rattle off a list of places that the other
person is not]  "So, if you're not in any of those places, you must be
somewhere else, right?"
"Right."
"Well, if you're somewhere else, then you can't be here!"
    (I think that was Abbot and Costello)

>    (Is anything intelligent going to be discussed here?)

I hope so.  If I can find the reference for the rotating mass-thing, it
might fit into that category.  Or better yet, if somebody else knows it.

>--
>Gene Miller        Phone [phone]
>[e-mail]    Fax [phone]

--
Charles R. Tenney    [e-mail]   | What would the UNC of Medicine
                         | want with my opinions? What
    "My karma ran over my dogma."         | would I want with theirs?
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Whittaker)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (francis deck) writes:
>Yes... it's possible.  Read up on the "twin paradox."  We travel

Oooh boy, enough of these useless remarks please.

>Is it possible to violate the "first signal principle," i.e.
>to travel faster than light?  No.

Answer: we do not know.  Current theory says only that it is impossible
for a sub-luminal body to travel at light speed - there are no restrictions
on travelling faster than light speed (how you make the jump from the sub-luminal
to the super-luminal is your business :->).

>Is it possible to revisit the past?  No.

Wrong.  There is speculation involving wormholes terminated by black holes,
and while the practicalities are prohibitive, the possibilites are interesting.

Step 1:  Find a black hole that terminates a wqorm hole
Step 2:  Find the black hole that terminates the other end
         of the wormhole
Step 3:  Drag one black hole around the other several times
         (without pinching off the wormhole)
Step 4:  Enter the black hole that you moved and emerge from
         the "stationary" black hole some time in your past.

Going back to the original question:  is it possible to travel in time
(in the colloquially understood meaning of the expression)?  Could be,
we don't know, current physical/relativistic/cosmological theory does
not preclude the possibility.

Interesting note:  some theories indicate that particles may influence
the collisions that create them, in effect "informing" the "colliders"
as to "how they should react" in order to create the resultant particle.
In effect, the "effect" sends a message back through time telling the
"cause" what to do.

"Cause and effect" is a bit of a ghost.

--
Peter Whittaker      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]   Open Systems Administration
[e-mail]           [                          ]   Bell Northern Research
Ph: [phone]  [                          ]   P.O. Box 3511, Station C
FAX:[phone]  [__________________________]   Ottawa, Ontario, K1Y 4H7
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 14:52:56 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>  writes:
>
> In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (mark s gilstrap) writes...
> >    strength to me. Please allow me to have (and post) ideas con-
> >    trary to yours without being attacked.
>
>
>         If you don't want  to be attacked then take your religious drivel
>         somewhere else.  This is  the  file  to be attaked in and when it
>         comes to religious clap trap I will be one of the main attackers.
>         Especially self rightious puritanicle christian clap trap.
>
>         One  of  the  pieces of drivel coming from TV Evangalists is that
>         this light/city is coming out of the North from the constellation
>         of of Orion.   Funny in that when I turn my telescope on Orion to
>         view some of what it has to offer I have to look "SOUTH".
>
>         Steve

Steve, before you go accusing others of being self-righteous I think you
should re-read your post.  Your philosophy/beliefs on religion are just
as much "drivel" as anyone elses.

One thing about Usenet I find very disapointing is people like you who
can't read someone elses opinion without flaming it.

As none of this really belongs on this newsgrounp, send all followups to
/dev/null.

Ben Youngdahl
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From: [e-mail] (Donald F. Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 15:28:00 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (francis deck) writes...
>Yes... it's possible.  Read up on the "twin paradox."  We travel
>in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we
>gain or lose don't amount to much.  If the speed of light were 55
>MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time
>travel.
>
>Is it possible to violate the "first signal principle," i.e.
>to travel faster than light?  No.  Is it possible to revisit
>the past?  No.  Is it possible to visit the future?  What
>do you mean by "travel in time?"
I always enjoy how "sure" physicists can be about theories until they are proven wrong.  Let us say that based upon current theory we know of no way of traveling faster than light.  Or for that matter how to traverse time.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 16:02:58 GMT
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In article <1991Dec5.151720.17404@anasaz>, billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes...
>I don't understand this reference at all.  What tradition holds that we
>shoot first and ask questions later?  Americans are known for excercising
>incredible restraint. When/where did we ever "shoot first and ask questions
>later?"  Americans are the good guys.  That's why, when they come, they'll
>come here first.

You're right, Bill. :-)

I guess I was trying to point out that we're not likely to worship new
visitors from the sky but to treat them as we treat everyone else...
worship isn't on the list of appropriate responses however.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
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From: @pmafire.inel.gov
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles R. Tenney) writes:

>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.

Yes, it is....BUT, you need a "flux-capacitor"!  I happen to have a few that
I would like to sell:

1ea.  BTTF-1-FC1000F  Time Machine Flux Capacitor   $49.95

:-) jbl

 _____________________________________________________________________________
||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~||
||Jeff B. Later  WB7TZA  "[e-mail]"|    "I have become        ||
||*"Disclaimer, Disclaimer, Where's My Lawyer!"*  |   comfortably numb"      ||
||                                                |      Pink Floyd          ||
| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From: [e-mail] (Terry J. Wood)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 18:11:32 GMT
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In article <![e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:

>   BTW, I highly recommend Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of
>Time".  It explains the current theories in plain english, without a
>lot of mathematical mumbo jumbo.  Not too many proofs, but if you're
>willing to accept his word on things then it can be very enlightening.

I'd give this book 2 thumbs up too!  He's changed his mind a bit, since
writing the book, but it's still interesting reading given that even a layman
can understand what he's written.

>   How's Professor Hawking doing these days, anyway?

Last I heard he was living with "a lady friend".  I don't know if he's gotten
back with his wife or not.  You don't see too many people at Dr. Hawking's
level on "A CURRENT AFFAIR", but every once and a while they *do* make it
to tabloid TV! ;-)

Terry
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From: [e-mail] (Open Locks...)
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Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
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What about the Einstein-Rosen hypothesis & the Klein solution to black-
hole event horizons????

_______________________________________________________________________________
                   [e-mail] |
   /\  /\                                |  Realism, n : Nature as seen through
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Terenas S D M) writes:
...
> All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.

Probably not, but...you might want to check out the paper
"Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of of Global Causality
Violation" by Frank Tipler, Physics Review D9, 2203-6 (1974).
(It always impressed me that you'd need one _hell_ of a
traffic control system around a Tipler cylinder... :-)

Craig
-- "She keeps a Moet et Chandor   Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  In her pretty cabinet.              Internet: [e-mail] --
--  'Let them eat cake' she says      Austin: [e-mail] --
--  Just like Marie Antoinette".                    VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
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From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 18:38:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] (Andy Wardley) says:

>In article <![e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:
>
>>   The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only
>>appears that way.  It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero
>
>OK, call me Mr Thicky if you like, but what happens if a hypothetical
>train is travelling close to the speed of light.  If you were standing at
>the back of the train and all the doors between the carriages were open,
>you could run towards the front of the train and your combined velocity
>relative to the ground would be greater than the speed of light. NO?
>
>Remember that we (The human race) used to say that the Earth was flat,
>man could never fly, and that no-one could travel faster that the speed
>of sound.  I'm no expert on this and I'm sure that some of you may have
>convincing proof that the speed of light IS the galactic speed limit,
>but I reckon that one day, we may do it, and we'll all look back and
>laugh at how stupid we were to say it couldn't be done.
>
>After all, they do it on Star Trek and that's a true story isn't it?
>
>
>Cheers
>Andy
>
>
>--
>______________________________________________________________________________
>_  standard disclaimer             , '                         Andy Wardley  _
>_  available on request...        -o O-                 [e-mail]  _
>_ "You have pleasantly              l                                        _
>_  wibbled my frusset pouch"        _  "Go on Punk, make my lunch"           _
>

I believe that in general relativity, lower speed limits you can add
up velocities, i.e., if I was travelling 40 MPH and threw a ball
forward at 40 MPH, the velocity would be 80 MPH.

In special relativity, if I was travelling near the speed of light
and lets say that I shined a flashlight that also goes the speed of
light, the light would only go up to and not over the speed of light.
The speed of light cannot be exceeded.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!uicvm.uic.edu!u27468
From: [e-mail] (Nancy Bulinski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 17:44:51 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Lines: 7

Someone told me alittle of a bizzare story of alien bodies
being hidden by government authorities at some military
installation out west YEARS ago... maybe 50 years?  What
is this about?  Can someone tell me, or give me a reference
book that this supposedly came from?  Thanks.

                     Nancy  ([e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!jato!dave
From: [e-mail] (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 19:48:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
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[e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:

>   The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only
>appears that way.  It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero
>temperature or a frequency of zero cycles per second.  The speed of
>light is the maximum speed that anything can possibly go.

Actually...this is the maximum speed that we can perceive anything
going at. The medium we perceive in goes at this speed, anything
going faster is imperceptable due to the same effects as are
espoused in Nyquist's theorem.

--
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
[e-mail]       [e-mail]           ames!elroy!dxh

Show me a person who really knows what 'good' is, and I will show you that
the person almost never uses the word.
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 19:29:18 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Steve, before you go accusing others of being self-righteous I think you
>should re-read your post.  Your philosophy/beliefs on religion are just
>as much "drivel" as anyone elses.


        Yes I do have somewhat of a religious viewpoint but at no time do
        I ever give  my religious opinion as gospel nore do I claim to be
        privy to the only  "TRUE" way of thought.  I do not expect anyone
        to believe my religios thoughts  and  at  the  same time I expect
        critisim of these thoughts.

        However  when  someone  comes  online claiming  to  be  a  "PURE"
        christian I have no tolerance because they  are  close minded and
        self rightious and have a tendency to look  down  there  noses at
        those of us who chose not to buy into  there  version of life and
        god.

        Now I cannot think of any of my postings where  I  come across as
        self  rightious but if you have one which you consider to  be  in
        this catagory then let me know.

        Steve gotta go
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct
From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Somthing Heading this way.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 20:22:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc.
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[e-mail] (Steve Timpson) writes:
|  One  of  the  pieces of drivel coming from TV Evangalists is that
|  this light/city is coming out of the North from the constellation
|  of of Orion.   Funny in that when I turn my telescope on Orion to
|  view some of what it has to offer I have to look "SOUTH".

Oh, come on, Steve!  Don't debunk them just because they didn't say
*where* they were located.  They might just be *WAY* south of you...
off the planet...drifting thousands of miles "below" the earth....
If this is the case, then they would have to look Earth-north.    :-)

-Brent
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent P. Burton, N5VMG                                    Computer Sci/Physics
[e-mail]                                        Texas A&M University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 20:35:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc.
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[e-mail] (Steve Warren) writes:
|Joe flies past you at .9C (or do you fly past Joe? - nevermind).
|So, you decide to observe Joe's clock at 2 points along his flight path to
|determine if his clock is running faster than yours, or yours is running
|faster than his.  Joe makes the same observation of your clock as he passes
|you.
|What do you observe, and what does Joe observe, and why?

Steve, here's a guess:  (It's been awhile since I've had relativistic anything)

Since it doesn't matter who flies past who, I'll assume I'm stationary and
Spaceman Joe flies past me.

Say joe starts next to me and blasts off, instantaneously achieving .9c.
(We'll ignore his brains on the back wall.)
As Joe flies away, his clock "slows" down.  This is because as he flies
away at almost the speed of light, the photons from his clock still need
to come back to me.  But the distance they need to travel to reach me is
constantly increasing, so there is a longer delay between each successive
minute.

Similarly, Joe thinks I blasted away from him in reverse at .9c, and that
my clock is slowing down.  However, Joe's clock runs fine for him and
my clock runs fine for me.

-Brent

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent P. Burton, N5VMG                                    Computer Sci/Physics
[e-mail]                                        Texas A&M University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!paladin.american.edu!auvm!ghadsal
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 20:56:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Lines: 4

Okay, time travel is being debated, but what about teleportation?  Is this stil
l a theory?

Guy
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From: [e-mail] (Stephen Andrew Rahe)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 20:58:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Freshman, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

In article  <[e-mail]>  [e-mail] (Andy Wardley) writes:
> Remember that we used to say that the Earth was flat,
> man could never fly, and that no one could travel faster than the speed
> of sound...
    Actually, sailors always knew that the Earth was spherical, since the
masts of ships appeared first on the horizon. The statement that
Columbus proved "the Earth was round" is grossly inaccurate. The
Phoenicians knew better. The Greeks believed that it would be possible
to fly (the myth of Deadeus (sp.?), and his son, Icarus, who melted his
"wings" by flying too close to the sun.) The speed of light is nothing
like the speed of sound. The very nature of the speed of light makes it
impossible to travel faster, just like how nothing can be cooled below
absolute zero, where all molecular activity ceases. Traveling faster
than c is not a structural problem (like the speed of sound), but a
violation of the laws of physics. Don't  compare apples and oranges;
they ain't the same...
            Steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!zeus.tamu.edu!dwr2560
From: [e-mail] (RING, DAVID WAYNE)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 21:28:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (francis deck) writes...
>
>
>
>"c = 299792458 m/s" -- God
>
>
More likely:
 "c = 1" -- God
 "s = 299792458 m" -- Bureau of Standards

D Ring    ([e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!gatech!psuvax1!psuvax1!okunewck
From: [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 22:34:19 GMT
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[e-mail] writes:
>[e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:
>
>>   The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only
>>appears that way.  It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero
>>temperature or a frequency of zero cycles per second.  The speed of
>>light is the maximum speed that anything can possibly go.
>
>Actually...this is the maximum speed that we can perceive anything
>going at. The medium we perceive in goes at this speed, anything
>going faster is imperceptable due to the same effects as are
>espoused in Nyquist's theorem.

   The problem is, if we can't perceive an object travelling at FTL
velocities, we can't prove that this object actually exists.  We can
theoritize on its behavior, just as we can mathematically calculate
properties of frequencies below zero hertz (using imaginary numbers).

   But since these particles are imperceptable to us, then they don't
exist in our universe.  There is also no other known universe for them
to exist in.  So as far as we can tell, FTL objects don't exist.

   Theoretically, tachyons can exist.  The unanswerable question
remains, do they exist?  What was before the Big Bang?  What will be
after the Big Crunch?  The world may never know.

--
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Corrupt Xref line!!  2197 --> sci.phys.skateboarding(1..0)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!hubcap!taylors
From: [e-mail] (C. Taylor Sutherland III)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 22:33:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]>     <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Clemson University
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Maybe it is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light, so we have
to find someway of getting places without actually moving, in real space,
that is.  Or we could figure out someway to reduce our mass as a function of
increasing speed.  As a warp field :)


--
+ The   ___    __            +  I am the terror that flaps in the night.  +
|      /_     /__)           |  I am the power surge that fries your      |
|     /  ly  /__)oy          |       terminal.                            |
+ [e-mail] +  I am Darkwing Duck!                       +
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!jato!dave
From: [e-mail] (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 23:16:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
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[e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:
>   The problem is, if we can't perceive an object travelling at FTL
>velocities, we can't prove that this object actually exists.  We can
>theoritize on its behavior, just as we can mathematically calculate
>properties of frequencies below zero hertz (using imaginary numbers).

We can't prove that it doesn't exist either.

All we can say is that we don't know.
--
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
[e-mail]       [e-mail]           ames!elroy!dxh

      Self justification is worse than the the original transgression.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!sti.com!alaric
From: [e-mail] (The Renaissance Man)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 02:30:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]> <![e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Phil Stracchino)
Organization: Software Transformation Inc.
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In article <![e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:
]
]    BTW, I highly recommend Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of
] Time".  It explains the current theories in plain english, without a
] lot of mathematical mumbo jumbo.  Not too many proofs, but if you're
] willing to accept his word on things then it can be very enlightening.

Maybe my trouble is I'm not willing to just accept his word on things -
particularly some of the wilder and more unsubstantiated assumptions he
starts making in the closing chapters of the book.  I found the book as
a whole to be quite interesting, but the last couple of chapters to be
disappointing in the extreme.
Hawking is a brilliant astrophysicist, but I wish he'd stop pretending
to be a cosmologist as well.

]    How's Professor Hawking doing these days, anyway?

Last I heard, his condition had basically stabilized.  Which is not great;
but could be a lot worse.  Here's hoping he lives long enough for a cure...


--
"Talk is cheap.  Photon torpedoes cost money."  - Mike the Mundane
   /| |                  |        The Renaissance Man is...
  / | |  __    _  ^  __  |  Alaric of Carrowlea    Alaric of Dare
 /__| | /  \ |/ \ | /    |  Phil V. Stracchino     [e-mail]
/   | | \_/| |    | \__  |              (among others)
--
Just when you thought it was s-s-s-safe to go back on the n-n-n-network...

    The return of MMMMMAX HEADCRASH!!!!!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!coplex!plex!chuck
From: [e-mail] (Chuck Sites)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 04:39:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Copper Electronics, Inc.
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Yawh.. Well, It is possible to observe the past. It's impossible to
to interact with the past though. Can one observe the future? Well,
unfortunaly, time is dimensionally incomplete. That is, while it has
forward direction, it doesn't have a reverse. So while one can
stretch the imaginary distance between the end point of the time
ray, and the arrow point of the ray, what we call the speed of light,
beyond either end point nothing exists.  So if someone tell you time
is the 4th dimension. Tell them that's not quite right. It really is
dimensionaly incomplete. QED.


Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What Theories Have Been Proposed About UFO Propulsion?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 18:45:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
>
>1) How can they navigate the distance in a reasonable time?  Can they
>   warp space, like we see in Star Trek?

According to Bob Lazar they can, but I'm not sure if his theory works.  He
says they have a powerful gravity generator on board (I won't even go into
that) and they just grab the point they want to travel to, pull it to them,
and then let go and snap back with it.  Question 1: gravity would have to
be instantaneous.  It isn't, is it?  Problem 2: would anyone else notice
(to put it mildly) the immense distortion of space?

>2) How about their anomalous motion as seen on earth?  They seem to go
>   through extreme accelerative forces.  They also seem to defy
>   gravity.

I know someone who has a theory based on the alleged discoveries of John
Keely, but I'm not a Keely expert so I can't explain it very well.  But if
Keely's theories are true, the flying object would behave independently of
the Earth's gravity and inertia.  (Needless to say, Keely's theories are
pretty radical.)

>Anyway, I am fairly ignorant of what has been proposed in the way of
>testable theories.  And this brings me to the final inquiry as to what
>experiments can be set up to verify such theories (e.g., Einstein
>proposed several experiments to verify his relativity theories).

Testable?  Nothing as far as the more extreme behavior of the phenomenon is
concerned.  (Unless you happen to have a saucer handy, like Lazar says his
former employer did.)

I have a text file giving a design for an electromagneticly propelled
saucer.  The concept supposedly dates clear back to Tesla.  I might post it
if I can get a feed of the alt.sci.physics.new-theories group.

Also, is anyone familiar with the Biefeld-Brown effect?  Granted, Brown
never produced anything that had a built-in power supply as far as I know,
but the effect itself might be appropriate for this group.  (Someone once
told me that Brown's saucers were free of acceleration effects, but I have
no idea where he got this idea.  Can anyone verify?)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!reed!news
From: [e-mail] (Mark Jefferys)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 09:26:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR
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Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:122 sci.physics:15240 sci.skeptic:18337 alt.alien.visitors:3454

PLEASE -- Remove "alt.config" from the Newsgroups: line.


"Time Travel - My First Posting" articles are showing up in alt.config --
it needs everyone's active participation to eliminate.

When you reply to an article, please fix it so that the article goes only
to "alt.sci.physics.new-theories".

This will also help to clear up the other groups which are getting these
articles. Anyone who's interested in the discussion can follow it there.


Thank you.
---
Mark Jefferys        Internet: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!manuel!coombs!joshua
From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <joshua.692101083@coombs>
Date: 7 Dec 91 10:18:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Lines: 28

[e-mail] writes:

|>  Dear all,
|>       I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this,
|>       but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full
|>       news.

Commendable.

|>           I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from
|>       Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien
|>       civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it
|>       is my duty to make the full facts known.

Please do so, then.

|>       I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
|>       and I really don't know what to do.
|>       Please, does anybody know what to do?

Well, if you are frightened that the MIBs are going to come and get
you, you have already given them enough information to track you down
and do the nasty on you. So you might as well post the full details to
the net. That way, at least, if you mysteriously disappear without a
trace or have an accident some of us will know what is up.....

josh
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From: [e-mail] (Alex Orenshteyn)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 18:06:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
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Nntp-Posting-Host: n3.sp.cs.cmu.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (francis deck) writes:
>Yes... it's possible.  Read up on the "twin paradox."  We travel
>in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we
>gain or lose don't amount to much.  If the speed of light were 55
>MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time
>travel.
>
If speed of light were 55 MPH our biological processes would be so slow
that we still would not notice any time dilation in every day life.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440
From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 20:33:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 12
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:

>Okay, time travel is being debated, but what about teleportation?  Is this stil
>l a theory?
>
>Guy
>
>

No Guy, it is not a theory, it is bunk!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!cuuxb!tellab5!vpnet!lisbon
From: [e-mail] (Gerry Swetsky)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 15:36:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vpnet Public Access
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Can you folks please edit your Newsgroups line in this thread?  It is
particularly inappropriate in alt.config!

--
============================================================================
| Help stamp out stupid .signature files!           Gerry Swetsky  WB9EBO  |
|                 vpnet - Public access Unix and Usenet                    |
| Home [phone]       vpnet [phone]      [e-mail] |
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Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!morris
From: morris@anasaz (Bob Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz>
Date: 6 Dec 91 20:18:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
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In article <![e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes:
>[e-mail] (francis deck) writes:
>>Yes... it's possible.
>
>   Not quite.
>
>   The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only
>appears that way.  It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero
>temperature or a frequency of zero cycles per second.  The speed of
>light is the maximum speed that anything can possibly go.
>
Notice, however, that the experiments that demonstrated that the speed
of light is a limit were based on accelerating a charged particle with
electric and magnetic fields.   As the speed increased, the mass increased
such that the mass becomes infinite at C.

Did these experiments prove that it is impossible to exceed C, or did
they only prove that it is impossible to exceed C with charged particles,
electric and magnetic fields?

What about the "stuff" ejected from Supernova 1987A that was observed
at time t0 and later at time t1 at a distance d > (t1-t0) * C?  (If
math is not your strong point, this simply means that the "stuff"
moved a distance in a time that required speeds greater than C to
accomplish).

I don't have the exact citations, but if anybody's interested, let me
know and I'll do some research.

"The speed of light: it's not just a good idea, it's the law [maybe]"

Bob Morris    [e-mail]    Quoting out of context for fun and profit:
  My opinions only, of course...    "Congress shall make no law"
anasaz![e-mail]                 --United States Constitution
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!corton!imag!ambone
From: [e-mail] (Ambone Gilles)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - Just do it ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 91 11:26:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost

Hi,

I just read differents reflexions about time travel, and I think precisions
must be done.

Einstein's theory explain that time is a dimension a the three others ones.
Each dimension could be mesured, but the RESULT of the measurement depends
of the relative difference between the speed of the object mesured and the
speed of the author of the measurement. For example, one getting the size
of a cube mesuring 1m x 1m x 1m runnig near light speed, might found that
this cube measures 1.1 m x 1 m x 1 m !

The size of this cube had never changed. The cube can go
through a window of size 1.05 x 1.05. To proove it, just imagine that the
cub couldn't do that. If you are on the cube and measure it, you will find
1 m x 1 m x 1m because you have the same speed that it. So the cube had
to known the difference of speed between it and the window, then change
his own size to not fit in the window ! It's certainly a very clever cube !

Now return to the more abstract dimension : the Time. Whatever was your speed,
Time will evoluate as the same way, because Time is a dimension like other.
Only measurements are differents.

So we could not travel in future by speed. in "A Brief History of
Time", Stephen Hawking explains others dimensions than the 4 known dimensions,
might exist, and if so, could be used as short cut to join others points,
and so others times. Unfortunately, if this new dimensions exist, there
are curled and so not usables.

We can't go to futur or past, by present is beautiful, isn't it ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry for my poor english language, it would be better ... in the future !

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!dh4j+
From: [e-mail] (David O Hunt)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 04:47:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]>
    <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz>
Organization: Masters student, Mechanical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 32
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:169 sci.physics:15260 sci.skeptic:18354 alt.alien.visitors:3461 alt.config:5447
In-Reply-To: <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz>

>
>What about the "stuff" ejected from Supernova 1987A that was observed
>at time t0 and later at time t1 at a distance d > (t1-t0) * C?  (If
>math is not your strong point, this simply means that the "stuff"
>moved a distance in a time that required speeds greater than C to
>accomplish).
>

This is not necessarily so.  If matter is moving almost on a direct line
towards
or away from you at near-C speeds, it can _appear_ to be moving faster than
light, although once relativistic effects are taken into account the super-
luminal speeds go away.

As I recall, DISCOVER magazine did a short piece on some stuff that was seeming
to be super-luminal a few years back.  Explained  it real well!  And in my
Physics class we also went over it - back when I was a Physics major.




David Hunt
Grad Student, Mechanical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
========================================================
My mind is my own, so are my ideas and opinions.
My heart, body, and soul, however, all belong to others.

What's the difference between a catfish and a laywer?

One's a slimy scum-sucking bottom feeder.  The other's
a fish!
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From: [e-mail] (Gerry Swetsky)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 13:51:36 GMT
References: <![e-mail]> <![e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vpnet Public Access
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Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:173 sci.physics:15261 sci.skeptic:18355 alt.alien.visitors:3462

PLEASE GET THIS OUT OF ALT.CONFIG!!!!

Thank you.

--
============================================================================
| Help stamp out stupid .signature files!           Gerry Swetsky  WB9EBO  |
|                 vpnet - Public access Unix and Usenet                    |
| Home [phone]       vpnet [phone]      [e-mail] |
============================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!mips!apple!amdcad!netcomsv!ekman
From: [e-mail] (Donald E. Ekman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 21:00:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dale Wedge) writes:
>
>In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:
>
>>Okay, time travel is being debated, but what about teleportation?  Is this stil
>>l a theory?
>>
>>Guy
>>
>>
>
>No Guy, it is not a theory, it is bunk!

There's an interesting article by Arthur C. Clarke in the January 1992
issue of Playboy in which he points out the bandwidth requirements for
transmitting all of the requisite information.  Not likely to happen this
week, I fear.

Don
--
.signature on file
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re:  Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 18:01:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 15
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Okay, time travel is being debated, but what about teleportation?  Is this stil
>l a theory?

In the psychic field there are rare reports of bilocation (being visible in
two places at once) and teleportation, but the evidence is only anecdotal.

In the physics field, the evidence is also only anecdotal and concerns the
Navy accidentally teleporting a ship while trying to make it invisible.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 18:10:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nancy Bulinski) writes:
>Someone told me alittle of a bizzare story of alien bodies
>being hidden by government authorities at some military
>installation out west YEARS ago... maybe 50 years?  What

The Roswell UFO crash occurred in 1947, with some lesser-known ones also
occurring about that time.  The alleged bodies were allegedly taken to
Wright-Patterson AFB.  The latest book on the case is "UFO Crash At
Roswell" by Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt.  There's a book by Bill Moore
from about ten years ago, too.  There's also a movie (partly fictional, I
think) called "Hangar 18".  (Which was also the name of a recent song by
Megadeth, but they don't have a lot to say.)

In recent years, there have been highly sensational stories floating around
the UFO field and various networks concerning working spaceships and live
aliens at secret installations in the Nevada area.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 17:52:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles R. Tenney) writes:
>>    (Is anything intelligent going to be discussed here?)
>
>I hope so.  If I can find the reference for the rotating mass-thing, it
>might fit into that category.  Or better yet, if somebody else knows it.

Frank Tipler.

Now, how do we build one?  :-)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!cunews!cognos!alzabo!latour!mcr
From: [e-mail] (Michael Richardson)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 21:00:18 GMT
References: <![e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Organization: Sandelman Software Works, Debugging Department, Ottawa, ON
Lines: 44
Xref: ns-mx sci.physics:15266 sci.skeptic:18358 alt.alien.visitors:3467 alt.config:5451 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:177


  The original article was posted to:
   sci.physics
   alt.config
   sci.skeptic
   alt.alien.visitors
   alt.sci.physics.new-theories

  Since alt.sci.physics.new-theories has been newgroup'ed please
remove sci.physics and alt.config from this list.
  I don't care about alt.alien.visitors, since I don't think that
group even exists around these parts. The sci.skeptic people can make
their own statement.
  Please note Followup-To:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stephen Andrew Rahe) writes:
>In article  <[e-mail]>  [e-mail] (Andy Wardley) writes:
>> Remember that we used to say that the Earth was flat,
>> man could never fly, and that no one could travel faster than the speed
>> of sound...
>    Actually, sailors always knew that the Earth was spherical, since the
>masts of ships appeared first on the horizon. The statement that
>Columbus proved "the Earth was round" is grossly inaccurate. The

  I really hope that physics.new-theories doesn't go around and around
this thread forever. You can pick up enough physics to understand c
from a couple of John Gibbons books if sf books weren't enough. I had
no problems Amit Goswami's ``Cosmic Dancers'' when I was 12.
  I won't be surprised to see lots of cross-posts with
rec.arts.startrek regarding Warp shells, but to discuss a
``new-theory'' implies some knowledge of the old ones.

>than c is not a structural problem (like the speed of sound), but a
>violation of the laws of physics. Don't  compare apples and oranges;

  I'd describe it as a violation of the assumptions upon which modern
and particle physics is built.


--
   :!mcr!:            |  The postmaster never | So much mail,
   Michael Richardson |    resolves twice.    |  so little time.
HOME: [e-mail]     Bell: [phone]
SCHOOL: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty
From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 03:10:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Abode Computer Services
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>  Dear all,
>       I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this,
>       but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full
>       news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from
>       Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien
>       civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it
>       is my duty to make the full facts known.
>
>       I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
>       and I really don't know what to do.
>       Please, does anybody know what to do?
>
>      A.COLLARD      [e-mail]
>
>



Go PUBLIC WITH HARD FACTS- FAST!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!oderberg
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Alien Liaison
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 11:11:44 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 13


I am completely new at this. Never posted before in my life. Not
sure of the protocol, not sure of the customs and tacit knowledge
of regular users. But I am told that the best way to learn how to
use the net is to make mistakes and have people correct you. So
I shall do this.

What I wish to ask is: Has anyone read Tim Good's latest book
Alien Liaison, and if so, what is their opinion of it? I have
just finished it, and have some views, but I would first like to know
what others think.

David.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!oderberg
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hidden Aliens???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 18:28:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Nancy Bulinski) writes:
> Someone told me alittle of a bizzare story of alien bodies
> being hidden by government authorities at some military
> installation out west YEARS ago... maybe 50 years?  What
> is this about?  Can someone tell me, or give me a reference
> book that this supposedly came from?  Thanks.
>
>                      Nancy  ([e-mail])

    You should read Above Top Secret, the 1987 book on the subject,
    by Timothy Good, which has now become the standard reference
    work on the subject. You can then read Alien Liaison (1991) by
    the same author; I've just finished it, and find it staggering,
    but -- believeable?
                    David.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!corvette.utdallas.edu!tamsun!zeus.tamu.edu!msw5513
From: [e-mail] (WHINERY, MARC STEVEN)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Keywords: photon,light,yugo,mass
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 20:51:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 49
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:180 sci.physics:15269 sci.skeptic:18360 alt.alien.visitors:3471 alt.config:5454
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <![e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Phil OKunewick) writes...
>[e-mail] (francis deck) writes:
>>Yes... it's possible.  Read up on the "twin paradox."  We travel
>>in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we
>>gain or lose don't amount to much.  If the speed of light were 55
>>MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time
>>travel.
>
>   Not quite.
>
>   If the speed of light were 55 MPH, then the Yugo and Geo would be
>terrible gas guzzlers.  Mopeds wouldn't be much better.
>
>   The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only
>appears that way.  It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero
>temperature or a frequency of zero cycles per second.  The speed of
>light is the maximum speed that anything can possibly go.

>   [meaningfull discussion on the speed of light omitted.]

>   Light travels at the maximum limit because a photon has no mass.
>That's the fastest it can go, so it does.

Sounds good, but there is one problem.  Photons have mass.  I don't have any
reference books with me, but light exerts force.  Photons have a finite
momentum.  Since  momentum=mass*velocity, and a photon traveling at the speed
of light has momentum and velocity, it must have mass.

Because nothing with mass can reach the speed of light, but photons have mass
and travel the speed of light, the speed of light must be greater than the speed
of light.  Or in terms that sane people can understand, the "speed of light"
barrier is actually slightly greater than the speed of a photon, c.

But, keep in mind that these ideas include a few theories that cannot be proven
with current technology, and the fact that I have yet to take a class in
physics.

_______________________________________________________________________________

MSW5513@TAMZEUS            Marc Whinery   /\/\
MSW5513@TAMVENUS                         /    \
MSW5513@TAMRIGEL                               \    /
MSW5513@TAMSIGMA                                \/\/
MSW5513@TAMSUMMA
[e-mail]    Yes, having this many
[e-mail]   addresses is redundant
[e-mail]   and pointless, but so
[e-mail]   is higher education.
[e-mail]   (now if only I could learn to spell...)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Urantia Book
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 91 05:26:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 17

Martin Gardner has published several columns about the "Urantia books"
in the past few issues of "The Skeptical Inquirer", starting about 3
issues back.

  Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

  Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I Do Not speak,

  Author of *utterly offensive* books!

--

  Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

  Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I Do Not speak,

  Author of *utterly offensive* books!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: cross-posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 19:54:51 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 12
Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:184 alt.alien.visitors:3473 sci.physics:15273 sci.skeptic:18366

Now that alt.sci.physics.new-theories has been created, it would probably
be a good idea to cut down on the cross-postings to sci.physics and
sci.skeptic.  Otherwise, what's the point in having a separate group?

Also, would people replying to the time-travel thread please remove *at
least* alt.config?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel M Zabetakis)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 17:28:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Network News)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Daniel M Zabetakis)
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 11
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   I'm just another reader of alt.config that would like to stop seeing this
(fascinating) thread crossposted to that group.
   PLease have a look at your newsgroup line before posting.

DanZ


This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions, or
narratives contained herein are not necessarily true, and do not
necessarily represent the views of any particular person.
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 17:54:40 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 21

Jim Shafer writes: "In the psychic field there are rare reports
of bilocation.."

For any one interested more in bilocation, try reading some
autobiographical accounts of Padre Pio, the Capucine monk who
bore the stigmata for many years and could bilocate to people
in hospitals, etc.

To me, this points to the concept/idea/aspect of diffusing one's
being/cells/atoms to such a degree with light (saints are known
to have so celestialized their atoms/cells that they are perhaps
omnipresent, in a sense, if one thinks/analyzes it).

Padre Pio was a devout monk/priest...who bled profusely and
was an instrument of bodily healing for many people.  I met a
man a few months back who met Padre Pio personally and had
a biolocation experience regarding him, and a physical healing.
Padre Pio is now deceased, but is prayed to by many for assistnace
assistance in their spiritual journeying.

Kathy
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 18:48:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 23
Nntp-Posting-Host: hecate.gac.edu

In article <[e-mail]>  writes:
>
>   Dear all,
>        I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this,
>        but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full
>        news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from
>        Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien
>        civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it
>        is my duty to make the full facts known.
>
>        I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
>        and I really don't know what to do.
>        Please, does anybody know what to do?
>
>       A.COLLARD      [e-mail]
>
>

This belongs on alt.forgery.

Seriously... what some people will do for a laugh.

Ben Youngdahl
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Time Travel - My First Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 22:03:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 19

In a message to All <05 Dec 91 12:11> Terenas S D M wrote:

 TSDM> All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time.  I heard a story
 TSDM> about reflection using mirrors and the
 TSDM> time that light takes to travel from
 TSDM> a place to another and that seems it
 TSDM> possible to travel in time but one needs
 TSDM> MANY mirros,  is this true ?

Hi Sergio.  Are you perhaps thinking of the Aspect Experiment?  It doesn't really confirm Time Travel, but it seems to confirm faster-than-light effects between coupled photons.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: FAA UFO Guidelines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 22:06:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
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In a message to All <05 Dec 91 18:02> cciolori wrote:

 cc> From: [e-mail] (cciolori)
 cc> Date: 5 Dec 91 16:02:38 GMT
 cc> Organization: FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City NJ
 cc> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 cc> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 cc>        Yeah, OK. I don't know of a
 cc> single person at the FAA who has anything
 cc>        even remotely to do with UFO
 cc> investigations. The FAA in a very large
 cc>        organization...maybe they do that stuff in FAA Washington.

Hi!  Perhaps the FAA in DC is more involved with tracking and record-keeping of UFO related stuff, but I wonder if you could help us in another way.

FAA has guidelines for employees to follow in responding to local UFO queries.  I understand there's a telephone script that everyone familiarized with -- could you share information about it with us?

It's just a couple of sentences, so it's probably not kept by people's telephones.  I think it's just something they learn in training.

Any help would be appreciated!  thanks

Clark



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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO's and UFO magazines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 91 22:10:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
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In a message to All <05 Dec 91 18:02> Daniel Fischer wrote:

 DF> From: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
 DF> Date: 5 Dec 91 11:28:09 GMT
 DF> Organization: Max-Planck-Institut fuer Radioastronomie, Bonn
 DF> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 DF> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 DF> If you can read German, I could help you: There's a brilliant magazine in
 DF> Germany, run by the CENAP, the Center for the Research into Strange Sky
 DF> Phenomena, and called CENAP REPORT. It appears every month with sometimes
 DF> 50 pages full of hot news, media clippings, field research and historical
 DF> stuff. All 'branches' of the UFO field are discussed, even fringe areas as
 DF> Crop (crap...) Circles, Abductions and so on. They also go into psychology

Vielen dank, Daniel!

Koennten Sie Uns avisiren, die Addresse und Subskriptionsumme des CENAP REPORTs?  I'm sure some users of this net might be interested in subscribing.

Thanks!

Clark Matthews


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO over Montreal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 02:29:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 35

In a message to All <24 Nov 91 12:07> L. M. P. McPherson wrote:

 LMPM> From: [e-mail] (L. M. P. McPherson)
 LMPM> Date: 24 Nov 91 04:10:34 GMT
 LMPM> Organization: McGill University
 LMPM> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 LMPM> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 >>> A similar object was seen in Montreal on the night of November 7, 1990.
 >>> (The event was reported in the newspaper "La Presse", Nov. 8, 1990, p. A3.)
 >>> This UFO had a circle of lights (up to 10) and rays of light coming out of
 >>> it. It moved very slowly across the sky above a large downtown shopping
 >>> mall/office complex, and was visible for at least three hours. I remember

 LMPM> There was a photograph in the newspaper. Odd that you should assume there
 LMPM> were no photos taken.

Is there any chance that you could send a clipping (or better yet, a GIF scan) of this photo?

From your brief description, it sounds a bit like the Hudson Valley UFO of the 1980s.

Please advise if you can obtain a copy.  Many thanks!

Clark Matthews
The Wrong Number BBS
P.O. Box 3934
Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934




--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: DOWN 18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 05:13:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
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In a message to All <25 Nov 91 12:20> [e-mail] wrote:

 ro> From: [e-mail]
 ro> Date: 25 Nov 91 00:15:19 GMT
 ro> Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
 ro> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 ro> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 ro> We're looking for some videos on UFO's.  So far we've seen:

Hello Roger!  Wonderful to hear from someone in good old Halifax!

I have never seen one of the landmark UFO films:  _UFOs: Past, Present and Future_.  It was produced and directed by Robert Emmenegger in the 1970s, based on his book of the same name.

I've heard the film is/was quite good, but I've been completely unable to obtain a screening, let alone a videocassette.

Good luck in your quest, and please let me know if you locate the Emmenegger film on videocassette!

Best,
  Clark


--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: SOMETHING HUGE!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 05:21:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
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In a message to All <25 Nov 91 12:21> Dusty Garza wrote:

 DG> From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
 DG> Date: 25 Nov 91 09:38:34 GMT
 DG> Organization: Abode Computer Services
 DG> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 DG> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 DG> Dear fellow UFOlogists:

 DG> I have just heard some GREAT NEWS (hopefully I won't be let down) from
 DG> the upcoming UFO Conference to be held in Las Vegas next month:

 DG> SOMETHING VERY BIG WILL BE ANNOUNCED THERE.  SOMETHING THAT WILL
 DG> UNEQUIVOCALLY PROVE THAT THERE IS A UFO COVER-UP ON THE PART OF
 DG> THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

Dusty, sorry for the late reply to your post -- but maybe it worked out for the best.

What was the GREAT NEWS! that came out of the L.V. UFOcon?  I haven't heard a peep (I'm still getting caught up on 2 weeks of ParaNet/FidoNet/UFINET and now Internet mail).  Did it fulfill expectations?

Best,
  Clark


--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFOs in Belgium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 05:24:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
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In a message to All <25 Nov 91 17:59> David Harwood wrote:

 DH> From: [e-mail] (David Harwood)
 DH> Date: 25 Nov 91 17:10:40 GMT
 DH> Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
 DH> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 DH> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 DH> By the way, did anyone see the UFO-proponent on Larry King who claimed
 DH> that the Soviets have deep-space satellite photos of a huge cylindrical
 DH> UFO? More fun ;-)

Hello David.  The UFO proponent was Don Ecker of UFO magazine, and I believe he showed the actual final image from the Phobos probe before the probe disappeared.

Best,
  Clark


--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Followup to CFD: alt.physics.  What is the best name?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 08:44:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 24

In a message to All <26 Nov 91 13:05> Harold Pritchett wrote:

 HP> From: [e-mail] (Harold Pritchett)
 HP> Date: 26 Nov 91 13:58:12 GMT
 HP> Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
 HP> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 HP> Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic

 >>>A proposed name is:  alt.physics   (what else?)

 HP> How about:

 HP>     alt.weird.science

Hehehehehehehe!!  Seconded!  Definitely, seconded!

Best,
  Clark


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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: CFD:  alt.physics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 04:32:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
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In a message to All <25 Nov 91 12:20> David Wright wrote:

 DW> From: [e-mail] (David Wright)
 DW> Date: 24 Nov 91 23:30:13 GMT
 DW> Organization: BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, GB
 DW> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 DW> Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic

 DW> In the referenced article [e-mail] (Jon Noring) writes:
 DW> #I'd like feedback on the possible
 DW> creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss
 DW> #alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views.  It will
 DW> #be a forum where both the proponents and
 DW> the skeptics can interact (hopefully
 DW> #in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories.

 DW> In the discussion of this idea, nobody in alt.config seems to have
 DW> remembered that there IS a group for such discussions, even though Jon
 DW> included it in his Newsgroups list -
 DW> sci.skeptic.    What's wrong with using

Hello David.  I think the tag sci.skeptic is a little off-putting for many of us who have the daily challenge of responding to professional or pathological skeptics/cynics/debunkers.  The quality of the "skeptical" discussions found in most "skeptical" forums seems to be extremely low.

Too many discussions there seem to come straight out of Monty Python's Arguement Clinic:  bitterly adversarial, take-no-prisoners gangbangs where arguements are often badly reasoned, sometimes completely false, and often comprised of automatic gainsaying of anything unexplained or unconventional.  It seems to me to be the exact converse of the "moonbeam" discussions of committed UFO cultists, and therefore completely without value.

Perhaps we could compromise on alt.cavilling.nits or alt.arguement.clinic?

Best,
  Clark


--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Something Huge!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 08:51:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
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In a message to All <27 Nov 91 17:56> Dale Wedge wrote:

 DW> From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
 DW> Date: 27 Nov 91 20:55:24 GMT
 DW> Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
 DW> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 DW> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 DW> It's time to give grants to people who are critical thinkers and those who
 DW> have a regard for Occam's Razor instead of going around in circles and
 DW> perpetuating such mish mash.

Hi Dale.  I agree, wholeheartedly, 110%.  I'm annoyed that what little grant money that exists for UFO research consistently circulates around a small circle of self-promoters who do not publish, or who treat their work as proprietary.

Personally, I would not financially support UFO study groups that award such sweetheart grants.


 DW> Again Mike, tangible - read my lips - T A N G I B L E  P R O O F is what
 DW> is required.  Something that I can hold in my hand that Phil Klass can't
 DW> explain.

Well, I think that Klass's job is twofold:

1. Publically "explaining" anything and everything offered as proof of UFO existence regardless of the facts, and

2. Evaluating, discrediting, and informing his bosses about anyone who may possess such proof (or apparently genuine US gov't UFO research, records, COMINT, or just interesting ideas)

So I'm prepared to settle for a "bird" in the hand and a sock in Phil's mouth (and a tap on my phone).

Best,
  Clark





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From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 91 21:56:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc.
Lines: 31

[e-mail] writes:
|  Dear all,
|    [There is a POSSIBILITY of life on Venus.]
|       I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened
|       and I really don't know what to do.
|       Please, does anybody know what to do?

Well the thing NOT to do is panic.  A panic stricken society would
be bad: riots, takeovers, suicides.  Even if this turns out to be
true, we MUST NOT PANIC!  PEOPLE IN PANIC DO NOT THINK RATIONALLY!

If this is true and an alien approches you, seek help immediately and
notify the proper authorities.  This assumes that they haven't shot
you with THEIR LASER BEAMS YET!  Remember: DO NOT PANIC.  A PANIC-
STRICKEN PERSON IS A GOOD TARGET OF DOGS AND ALIENS!

IN PREPARATION FOR THE VENUSIAN TAKEOVER, STOCK UP ON BOTTLED WATER,
CANNED FOODS, CANDLES, AND TRANSISTOR RADIOS.  BUY BOMB SHELTERS AND
ANTI-RADIATION SUNGLASSES.  ORGANIZE LOCAL MILITIA TO COMBAT THE ALIENS!
SHUT DOWN GOVERNMENT; THAT'S THE LAST THING WE NEED WORKING AT A TIME
LIKE THIS!  WHEN THE ALIENS LAND, THEY STOP OUR ELECTRICAL POWERPLANTS
FOR THEIR OWN USE!
OBTAIN COPIES OF 'SOLDIER OF FORTUNE' FOR SURVIVAL NEEDS: WEAPONS,
TECHNIQUES, SUPPLIES.

Oh, and let me know how it goes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent P. Burton, N5VMG                                    Computer Sci/Physics
[e-mail]                                        Texas A&M University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------